Interviewing Alec Wilder discussing his music and his book: American Popular Songs ; part 3
BROADCAST: 1980 | DURATION: 00:34:50
Synopsis
Part 3. Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras discuss Wilder's book "American popular songs", published in 1972.
Transcript
Tap within the transcript to jump to that part of the audio.
Studs Terkel That's an evergreen, that's sung by the composer, Harold Arlen, a wistful quality, we almost almost hear the man listening to the melody he wrote. Harold Arlen is one of the heroes of the book of Alec Wilder. This is part three of a three-part series. Alec Wilder, a very distinguished American composer, a very prolific one, and quite an observer of the scene, writer of popular songs himself, but also of other music, too, on some forthcoming program, that. But his new book, his book is "American Popular Song," subtitled "The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," Oxford Press the publishers, beginning as it did during the first chapter of this three-part series with America turn of the century into the 19th century. Jerome Kern the first perhaps of popular song writers being indigenous to the American, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Cole Porter, a variety of others, Rodgers, and we come now to Harold Arlen. Part two ended with Arlen's "Got a Right to Sing the Blues," and Harry Bouras is also a guest on this program. Harry, our art critic, a sculptor artist, and a man of all interests indeed, so we're commenting on on the book. And on Harold Arlen this moment, and listening to the composer sing "Stormy Weather," Alec.
Alec Wilder Yeah, well, he's you can see that the man has a very profound interest in not only the American thing, but he has a, there are overtones of the, of of the Negro singer in his singing, which is kind of fascinating considering the fact that he was the son of a cantor. But this is -- everything about the the approach is is the, I'm sure, and in fact he he he says himself that he has this desire to to make the American statement in terms of of the Negro performer and the Negro singer. I, I'm, I've heard this song once. I don't even know if I mentioned it in the book. I heard a guy sing it. I'd never heard the song, and he sang it without any accompaniment. We were coming in on one of those open-end observation car trains what they they had them thousand years ago, and we were standing on this platform on a spring night, and he sang this song, "Stormy Weather," no harmony, nothing, and I was goosebumped by it.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder And that's about the time I realized that this man had a way of writing that was unique for me, and I still think so. I just wish I hear that he's starting to write again, I hope he does. I don't know what place he'll have in this extraordinary society, but I hope that they're planning to do an hour and a half special on him, which requires new songs and I hope he gets to work, because he's been a very sad man.
Studs Terkel See on this program we won't even be talking about some of the musicals he worked on, particularly "Bloomer Girl" with Yip Harburg
Alec Wilder And then a great show, "St. Louis Woman," which didn't succeed, but had some great songs in it.
Studs Terkel Harry, your thoughts on this? Or?
Harry Bouras Oh, just very briefly about Arlen is that the songs are always small dramatic structures.
Harry Bouras One of the things he does is, he really conceives of the song as a circumscribed drama.
Harry Bouras A very brief one. And he takes an emotional situation, a very clear one, and explores it. And does something about it, and the song usually has like an introduction of the the person's character, then the problem
Studs Terkel You
Harry Bouras -and then their confrontation with the problem, and this is true of all, almost all
Studs Terkel As you say this, this song of course has been associated mostly with Ethel Waters in her prime.
Alec Wilder Right.
Studs Terkel And so the drama that Harry is talking about
Harry Bouras She really made it apparent. I mean, he's singing it as a composer would sing it for the musical line, not as a singer would perform it, but when she did, the whole predicament of, you know, being constantly troubled and constantly in a storm and not being able to get away from it, and age encroaching, old rocking chair getting one, and so on, that.
Studs Terkel And Alec also touches -- interesting thing about the book, "American Popular Song," though, of Alec Wilder, is that you also call upon songs -- we should remind the audience you went through 17,000 pieces of sheet music, that you also touch upon little-known songs like, "When the Sun Comes Out," Arlen
Alec Wilder Yeah, this was a song I, by the way, found lying around on a shelf virtually covered with dust in a publisher's -- I didn't even know it existed. I found out later there'd been about one record made on it. I took it to all kinds of people-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder -pleading with them to to revive it, to to make it happen. And today it's only really known among the music people themselves, it's not a public song really. I think one of his best songs.
Studs Terkel This one. Jeri Southern, by the way, is one of
Studs Terkel Little-known singers, underrated singers.
Alec Wilder Oh wow [whistle] I wish she'd go out back to work, she's
Harry Bouras Teaching school now.
Alec Wilder Yeah.
Harry Bouras Yeah. [music fades]
Studs Terkel I know that's [hard?]
Harry Bouras Alec wanted to cut that
Harry Bouras Alec
Alec Wilder Too much! Look, the lyric, the singer, [laughter] the melody, you can't stop those things. And that's Arlen to me at his finest.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder And by the way, I want to know -- there are not many writers who could have written that song. Really they're not.
Harry Bouras Do you do you notice how the lines, I mean the, first of all the length of those musical lines
Harry Bouras How they flowed and fed into each other, there wasn't a seam!
Alec Wilder That's right. No seam! Nothing!
Harry Bouras Nothing!
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras It just -- and when we come back to the restatement, beginning with that sun ligature
Harry Bouras At the end of the chorus, it starts again. And the sun does come out, it's the high note in the piece
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras And it opens up. And the song spreads out, and it just gets ecstatic.
Harry Bouras One, one line. One incredible line.
Studs Terkel It's interesting as we're talking about the flow of Arlen's music and writing, Alec Wilder and and Harry Bouras here, that a number of the songs deal with the nature of climate and weather, "Stormy Weather," "Sun Comes Out," or for that matter we'll hear a passage, a part of Lena Horne doing "Ill Wind."
Alec Wilder Another great song.
Studs Terkel But it's the aspect of -- have you ever talked about that, because you know Arlen quite well, Alec, have you talked
Alec Wilder No, I don't know whether this came from his lyric writers or whether he suggested, because he likes to get involved with the lyrics, I know, himself.
Studs Terkel But also the melancholy, you you point out
Alec Wilder -- The melancholy, yeah.
Studs Terkel Two sixty-four of Wilder's book, the sequence on Harold Arlen, Arlen's melancholy use of octaves and the release, they have a very instrumental cast, but in the hands of a competent singer," such as Jeri Southern here, "They come off splendidly as song."
Alec Wilder Yeah, he did this, this was a characteristic.
Studs Terkel "Ill, Ill wind," we continue with a matter of weather and portentousness. [music fading][whistling] Flowing from the
Alec Wilder This is real lieder writing. And I think he's extraordinary.
Harry Bouras Now, those octaves, though, are, are
Alec Wilder Nobody did it but him.
Harry Bouras But there's they're the kind of things that instrumentalists will do.
Harry Bouras When they're playing they'll drop that, it's it's a saxophone idea.
Harry Bouras It's a sax and then they'll drop it and then go right back.
Alec Wilder One of his earliest songs he told me he picked it up from a riff he heard a trumpet player, that "Sweet and Hot" [sings]. Well, that's a little riff, he -- perfectly willing to admit it.
Studs Terkel This is very funny you say this, we pick up from the trumpet player, that it's as though the singer is an instrument, too.
Harry Bouras That's very true.
Studs Terkel Ellington singers, and with
Alec Wilder And yet, they sing, They all sing.
Studs Terkel Yeah, yeah. I think one of one of the remarkable combinations in theater and in pop music is Harold Arlen and Yip Harburg, E.Y. Harburg, the lyricist and we think of naturally "Over the Rainbow," Judy Garland
Alec Wilder No, no, not -- no, that was something else again. Oh, you mean -- it didn't -- weren't you going to do one with -- oh, no, you don't have the -- he did one song with Harold, that one about
Studs Terkel "Old Devil Moon." We'll
Alec Wilder No, that's, that's, that's Lane.
Studs Terkel That's Lane. That's Lane. No, I'm thinking of "Over the Rainbow."
Alec Wilder "Over The Rainbow," was that Harburg?
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder That was! You're right, you're right, you're right. It was.
Studs Terkel Now here, perhaps we should hear this again, continuing again with the weather, this time rainbow
Alec Wilder That's the weather again, that's right.
Studs Terkel What were you -- suppose we listen to that -- what'd you describe it, Harry, again? That flow, how'd you describe it again?
Harry Bouras Seamless.
Studs Terkel Seamless.
Alec Wilder Seamless, right, right. [laughter]
Studs Terkel [music fading] You were saying something, we stated this earlier because Alec Wilder, you were saying something here.
Alec Wilder You mean about -- I, I hesitate to say anything not complimentary about Mr. Arlen, but this song always felt to me like a, not a contrivance, but a less than, less than inspired song. It certainly works for a singer, probably worked marvelously in the movie, and it was, heaven knows when Miss Garland sings it, it's, you know, perfection, but it doesn't have that extraordinary flair. It's a, I think it may be that it doesn't have that curious American flavor that those other songs had, maybe even the derivation from the Negro point of view, Negro style of singing. He told me, Mr. Arlen did, that they were very -- he he found the melody. He stopped the car, he said, he just jotted it down, the first strain, and he said there was a big problem. They knew what they wanted for a title, but they couldn't figure out what those first two syllables would be, and he said it was like the sun coming out when, when Mr. Harburg said, "It's, the word is 'somewhere.'"
Studs Terkel Somewhere, yeah.
Alec Wilder They couldn't figure out, if -- they knew it was "Over the Rainbow," but what do you say before that? "It's somewhere." A nice moment.
Studs Terkel You know, I was thinking as we're talking with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras about Wilder's book, "American Popular Song," the vari-- the number of other composers of popular songs that were little-known, [best?] we leave Arlen just this one comment Alec Wilder made here: "The reader may notice the absence of any mention in this discussion of Arlen's, of Arlen's music of his American-ness. This is very simply -- of course, even more than the case of Berlin. There's nothing else. Even Arlen's later, more mature and ambitious melodies, he never drew upon, influenced by European music of any kind."
Alec Wilder That's
Studs Terkel "Wholly a product of American jazz, big band music, and American popular song."
Alec Wilder That's right. Exactly.
Studs Terkel Arlen. Now we come to Burton Lane. I ment -- you have, you have passages about Vincent Youmans and Arthur Schwartz, good writers, we naturally we wouldn't be, have the time to
Studs Terkel Play a variety of their of their work. But Burton Lane, who
Alec Wilder Wrote [unintelligible].
Studs Terkel Wrote "Finian's Rainbow" and others.
Alec Wilder He wrote -- that, that's "Finian's" was probably his biggest score, but he wrote some other remarkable songs [page turning noise] like, you know, "How About You?" which I don't think you have a record of, it's a it's probably his most popular song. [Sings], "how about you?" But he wrote some very good
Harry Bouras He says in it, incidentally, Alec, "I like a Gershwin tune. How about you?"
Alec Wilder He does indeed. You know the lyric well. You know what Sinatra did one night when I was in the place, he said, "I like a Wilder tune," I fainted. Fainted.[laughter] Dead away.
Studs Terkel You know what would be a good example of Lane working in this case with a lyricist, Harburg, from "Finian's," "Old Devil Moon" with Ella Logan
Alec Wilder Remarkable song! And I think Ella of course is is the definitive performance.
Studs Terkel [music fading] [Unintelligible] Burton Lane here has over Harold Arlen -- I wonder if he's influenced by Arlen, possibly.
Alec Wilder I don't know. I know he -- that the musical trick here is to use one of the modes, it's a mixolydian mode device. The seventh -- well, I won't go into that. Who cares? No, but it's a musical device, and it works perfectly. It's a remarkable
Harry Bouras Another thing that's involved in it is that to your razzle-dazzle is a little lick.
Alec Wilder It is a lick, that's right.
Harry Bouras [Sings] And that that's, of course, where it ties in with Arlen. It's out of the band. Out of the band. It's something a guy in a band would do.
Harry Bouras At the end of a phrase.
Studs Terkel You you know, one of the most fascinating of of composers of popular -- in fact, this man I guess would, might be schizophrenic. Vernon Duke or Vladimir Dukelsky.
Alec Wilder Yeah
Studs Terkel He had two lives, didn't he?
Alec Wilder He sure did. And he was rather bitter about the other life, because he was never really accepted as a composer, he's a great
Studs Terkel Now, Dukelsky was the classical composer.
Studs Terkel But it's Vernon Duke, the popular composer, we
Alec Wilder That's right. And marvelous to me.
Studs Terkel What was it about it, we think, naturally think about "Can't Get Started," we hear Bunny Berrigan, a jazz man, do it. And here let -- here's a case of popular song lending itself to jazz interpretation.
Alec Wilder Right. Right. That's true. Although it's a great song by itself as a song, but it, it's always been a jazz man's favorite.
Studs Terkel But here again I suppose lyrics. This was Ira
Studs Terkel Lyrics. So here again the lyricist, we come back to the song, don't we?
Harry Bouras Can I make a little point? To go back about the Burton Lane. It was wonderful when we listening to Logan and that anonymous young man who's kind of a standard I
Studs Terkel -- I forgot he was the lead in the original, I'll think of
Harry Bouras The interesting thing is, is that song could very well have died. I don't, I don't think Burton Lane is as interesting as as you do, Alec. I just
Harry Bouras That song could have totally vanished had it not been for her performance.
Alec Wilder Maybe
Harry Bouras A totally magical thing happened: one is a show song. You know, when the guy sings it and it just is -- you know, it's a nice tune and it's standard and it will work a season and that's the end of it. But the minute she comes in, something electric begins to happen. And the performer -- and, it's what's got to be kept in mind all of the time is that the pop song does not exist without the good performance.
Studs Terkel Yeah
Harry Bouras And yet the performer is a band or a singer, well, that's really important.
Alec Wilder Granted, and yet you realize the problem I was up against in this book and I had to forget those performances because I had to judge from the sheet music.
Harry Bouras Oh,
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder Not what did Sinatra do, because Sinatra can sing "Trees" and make me a happy
Studs Terkel But yours is strictly the work of the composer and to some extent the lyricist from-
Studs Terkel -the
Alec Wilder Yeah, no performance should be considered or the show or whatever it was, the movie or anything else, because that'll throw you, because my memories of some songs that -- I keep going back to Sinatra, that he's done -- I had to, I had to just blank out the memory, because I would say, "This is a great song," and it wasn't! He did it, he made it
Studs Terkel One of the classics, a Vernon Duke song, one of his greatest, "I Can't Get Started," that Bunny Berrigan, that marvelous jazzman, sang and unfortunately, our record is all cracked and goofed up, and it's his trumpet and his voice, but continuing with Vernon Duke, another song of his that Alec Wilder likes is, what
Alec Wilder was "What is There to Say."
Studs Terkel "What is There to Say."
Alec Wilder I don't know whether it was in a production or movie or, it's just another very fine melody, and it has in it a little melodic device I've never heard before, which will become very apparent, it's a series of [sings], it's a very simple little idea, but it comes off in contrast to the opening statement, and I have not heard the Sylvia Syms record, I'd be, I'm fascinated to hear
Studs Terkel
Alec Wilder
Studs Terkel
Alec Wilder
Studs Terkel That's an evergreen, that's sung by the composer, Harold Arlen, a wistful quality, we almost almost hear the man listening to the melody he wrote. Harold Arlen is one of the heroes of the book of Alec Wilder. This is part three of a three-part series. Alec Wilder, a very distinguished American composer, a very prolific one, and quite an observer of the scene, writer of popular songs himself, but also of other music, too, on some forthcoming program, that. But his new book, his book is "American Popular Song," subtitled "The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," Oxford Press the publishers, beginning as it did during the first chapter of this three-part series with America turn of the century into the 19th century. Jerome Kern the first perhaps of popular song writers being indigenous to the American, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Cole Porter, a variety of others, Rodgers, and we come now to Harold Arlen. Part two ended with Arlen's "Got a Right to Sing the Blues," and Harry Bouras is also a guest on this program. Harry, our art critic, a sculptor artist, and a man of all interests indeed, so we're commenting on on the book. And on Harold Arlen this moment, and listening to the composer sing "Stormy Weather," Alec. Yeah, well, he's you can see that the man has a very profound interest in not only the American thing, but he has a, there are overtones of the, of of the Negro singer in his singing, which is kind of fascinating considering the fact that he was the son of a cantor. But this is -- everything about the the approach is is the, I'm sure, and in fact he he he says himself that he has this desire to to make the American statement in terms of of the Negro performer and the Negro singer. I, I'm, I've heard this song once. I don't even know if I mentioned it in the book. I heard a guy sing it. I'd never heard the song, and he sang it without any accompaniment. We were coming in on one of those open-end observation car trains what they they had them thousand years ago, and we were standing on this platform on a spring night, and he sang this song, "Stormy Weather," no harmony, nothing, and I was goosebumped by it. Yeah. And that's about the time I realized that this man had a way of writing that was unique for me, and I still think so. I just wish I hear that he's starting to write again, I hope he does. I don't know what place he'll have in this extraordinary society, but I hope that they're planning to do an hour and a half special on him, which requires new songs and I hope he gets to work, because he's been a very sad man. See on this program we won't even be talking about some of the musicals he worked on, particularly "Bloomer Girl" with Yip Harburg -- And then a great show, "St. Louis Woman," which didn't succeed, but had some great songs in it. Harry, your thoughts on this? Or? Oh, just very briefly about Arlen is that the songs are always small dramatic structures. Yeah right. One of the things he does is, he really conceives of the song as a circumscribed drama. That's right. [lighter A very brief one. And he takes an emotional situation, a very clear one, and explores it. And does something about it, and the song usually has like an introduction of the the person's character, then the problem You -and then their confrontation with the problem, and this is true of all, almost all of As you say this, this song of course has been associated mostly with Ethel Waters in her prime. Right. And so the drama that Harry is talking about -- She really made it apparent. I mean, he's singing it as a composer would sing it for the musical line, not as a singer would perform it, but when she did, the whole predicament of, you know, being constantly troubled and constantly in a storm and not being able to get away from it, and age encroaching, old rocking chair getting one, and so on, that. And Alec also touches -- interesting thing about the book, "American Popular Song," though, of Alec Wilder, is that you also call upon songs -- we should remind the audience you went through 17,000 pieces of sheet music, that you also touch upon little-known songs like, "When the Sun Comes Out," Arlen Yeah, this was a song I, by the way, found lying around on a shelf virtually covered with dust in a publisher's -- I didn't even know it existed. I found out later there'd been about one record made on it. I took it to all kinds of people- Yeah. -pleading with them to to revive it, to to make it happen. And today it's only really known among the music people themselves, it's not a public song really. I think one of his best songs. This one. Jeri Southern, by the way, is one of those Oh, Little-known singers, underrated singers. Oh wow [whistle] I wish she'd go out back to work, she's -- Teaching school now. Yeah. Yeah. [music fades] I know that's [hard?] Sorry, I -- Alec wanted to cut that -- I know -- Alec Too much! Look, the lyric, the singer, [laughter] the melody, you can't stop those things. And that's Arlen to me at his finest. Yeah. And by the way, I want to know -- there are not many writers who could have written that song. Really they're not. Do you do you notice how the lines, I mean the, first of all the length of those musical lines -- That's right. How they flowed and fed into each other, there wasn't a seam! That's right. No seam! Nothing! That's It just -- and when we come back to the restatement, beginning with that sun ligature -- That's right. At the end of the chorus, it starts again. And the sun does come out, it's the high note in the piece -- That's And it opens up. And the song spreads out, and it just gets ecstatic. That's right. One, one line. One incredible line. That's right. It's interesting as we're talking about the flow of Arlen's music and writing, Alec Wilder and and Harry Bouras here, that a number of the songs deal with the nature of climate and weather, "Stormy Weather," "Sun Comes Out," or for that matter we'll hear a passage, a part of Lena Horne doing "Ill Wind." Another great song. But it's the aspect of -- have you ever talked about that, because you know Arlen quite well, Alec, have you talked -- No, I don't know whether this came from his lyric writers or whether he suggested, because he likes to get involved with the lyrics, I know, himself. But also the melancholy, you you point out -- The melancholy, yeah. Two sixty-four of Wilder's book, the sequence on Harold Arlen, Arlen's melancholy use of octaves and the release, they have a very instrumental cast, but in the hands of a competent singer," such as Jeri Southern here, "They come off splendidly as song." Yeah, he did this, this was a characteristic. Oh, bless him. "Ill, Ill wind," we continue with a matter of weather and portentousness. [music fading][whistling] Flowing from the end, This is real lieder writing. And I think he's extraordinary. Now, those octaves, though, are, are -- Nobody did it but him. But there's they're the kind of things that instrumentalists will do. That's right. When they're playing they'll drop that, it's it's a saxophone idea. That's right. It's a sax and then they'll drop it and then go right back. One of his earliest songs he told me he picked it up from a riff he heard a trumpet player, that "Sweet and Hot" [sings]. Well, that's a little riff, he -- perfectly willing to admit it. This is very funny you say this, we pick up from the trumpet player, that it's as though the singer is an instrument, too. That's right. That's very true. Ellington singers, and with -- And yet, they sing, They all sing. Yeah, yeah. I think one of one of the remarkable combinations in theater and in pop music is Harold Arlen and Yip Harburg, E.Y. Harburg, the lyricist and we think of naturally "Over the Rainbow," Judy Garland -- No, no, not -- no, that was something else again. Oh, you mean -- it didn't -- weren't you going to do one with -- oh, no, you don't have the -- he did one song with Harold, that one about -- "Old Devil Moon." We'll No, that's, that's, that's Lane. That's Lane. That's Lane. No, I'm thinking of "Over the Rainbow." "Over The Rainbow," was that Harburg? Yeah. That was! You're right, you're right, you're right. It was. Now here, perhaps we should hear this again, continuing again with the weather, this time rainbow -- That's the weather again, that's right. What were you -- suppose we listen to that -- what'd you describe it, Harry, again? That flow, how'd you describe it again? Seamless. Seamless. Seamless, right, right. [laughter] [music fading] You were saying something, we stated this earlier because Alec Wilder, you were saying something here. You mean about -- I, I hesitate to say anything not complimentary about Mr. Arlen, but this song always felt to me like a, not a contrivance, but a less than, less than inspired song. It certainly works for a singer, probably worked marvelously in the movie, and it was, heaven knows when Miss Garland sings it, it's, you know, perfection, but it doesn't have that extraordinary flair. It's a, I think it may be that it doesn't have that curious American flavor that those other songs had, maybe even the derivation from the Negro point of view, Negro style of singing. He told me, Mr. Arlen did, that they were very -- he he found the melody. He stopped the car, he said, he just jotted it down, the first strain, and he said there was a big problem. They knew what they wanted for a title, but they couldn't figure out what those first two syllables would be, and he said it was like the sun coming out when, when Mr. Harburg said, "It's, the word is 'somewhere.'" Somewhere, yeah. They couldn't figure out, if -- they knew it was "Over the Rainbow," but what do you say before that? "It's somewhere." A nice moment. You know, I was thinking as we're talking with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras about Wilder's book, "American Popular Song," the vari-- the number of other composers of popular songs that were little-known, [best?] we leave Arlen just this one comment Alec Wilder made here: "The reader may notice the absence of any mention in this discussion of Arlen's, of Arlen's music of his American-ness. This is very simply -- of course, even more than the case of Berlin. There's nothing else. Even Arlen's later, more mature and ambitious melodies, he never drew upon, influenced by European music of any kind." That's "Wholly a product of American jazz, big band music, and American popular song." That's right. Exactly. Arlen. Now we come to Burton Lane. I ment -- you have, you have passages about Vincent Youmans and Arthur Schwartz, good writers, we naturally we wouldn't be, have the time to -- Right. Play a variety of their of their work. But Burton Lane, who -- Wrote [unintelligible]. Wrote "Finian's Rainbow" and others. He wrote -- that, that's "Finian's" was probably his biggest score, but he wrote some other remarkable songs [page turning noise] like, you know, "How About You?" which I don't think you have a record of, it's a it's probably his most popular song. [Sings], "how about you?" But he wrote some very good -- He says in it, incidentally, Alec, "I like a Gershwin tune. How about you?" He does indeed. You know the lyric well. You know what Sinatra did one night when I was in the place, he said, "I like a Wilder tune," I fainted. Fainted.[laughter] Dead away. You know what would be a good example of Lane working in this case with a lyricist, Harburg, from "Finian's," "Old Devil Moon" with Ella Logan singing. Remarkable song! And I think Ella of course is is the definitive performance. [music fading] [Unintelligible] Burton Lane here has over Harold Arlen -- I wonder if he's influenced by Arlen, possibly. I don't know. I know he -- that the musical trick here is to use one of the modes, it's a mixolydian mode device. The seventh -- well, I won't go into that. Who cares? No, but it's a musical device, and it works perfectly. It's a remarkable Another thing that's involved in it is that to your razzle-dazzle is a little lick. It is a lick, that's right. [Sings] And that that's, of course, where it ties in with Arlen. It's out of the band. Out of the band. It's something a guy in a band would do. That's right. At the end of a phrase. You you know, one of the most fascinating of of composers of popular -- in fact, this man I guess would, might be schizophrenic. Vernon Duke or Vladimir Dukelsky. Yeah He had two lives, didn't he? He sure did. And he was rather bitter about the other life, because he was never really accepted as a composer, he's a great songwriter. Now, Dukelsky was the classical composer. That's right. But it's Vernon Duke, the popular composer, we best That's right. And marvelous to me. What was it about it, we think, naturally think about "Can't Get Started," we hear Bunny Berrigan, a jazz man, do it. And here let -- here's a case of popular song lending itself to jazz interpretation. Right. Right. That's true. Although it's a great song by itself as a song, but it, it's always been a jazz man's favorite. But here again I suppose lyrics. This was Ira Gershwin. That's right. Lyrics. So here again the lyricist, we come back to the song, don't we? Can I make a little point? To go back about the Burton Lane. It was wonderful when we listening to Logan and that anonymous young man who's kind of a standard -- I forgot he was the lead in the original, I'll think of his The interesting thing is, is that song could very well have died. I don't, I don't think Burton Lane is as interesting as as you do, Alec. I just -- Well, I, just a That song could have totally vanished had it not been for her performance. Maybe A totally magical thing happened: one is a show song. You know, when the guy sings it and it just is -- you know, it's a nice tune and it's standard and it will work a season and that's the end of it. But the minute she comes in, something electric begins to happen. And the performer -- and, it's what's got to be kept in mind all of the time is that the pop song does not exist without the good performance. Yeah And yet the performer is a band or a singer, well, that's really important. Granted, and yet you realize the problem I was up against in this book and I had to forget those performances because I had to judge from the sheet music. Oh, What's there. Yeah. Not what did Sinatra do, because Sinatra can sing "Trees" and make me a happy -- But yours is strictly the work of the composer and to some extent the lyricist from- That's right. -the Yeah, no performance should be considered or the show or whatever it was, the movie or anything else, because that'll throw you, because my memories of some songs that -- I keep going back to Sinatra, that he's done -- I had to, I had to just blank out the memory, because I would say, "This is a great song," and it wasn't! He did it, he made it -- One of the classics, a Vernon Duke song, one of his greatest, "I Can't Get Started," that Bunny Berrigan, that marvelous jazzman, sang and unfortunately, our record is all cracked and goofed up, and it's his trumpet and his voice, but continuing with Vernon Duke, another song of his that Alec Wilder likes is, what was "What is There to Say." "What is There to Say." I don't know whether it was in a production or movie or, it's just another very fine melody, and it has in it a little melodic device I've never heard before, which will become very apparent, it's a series of [sings], it's a very simple little idea, but it comes off in contrast to the opening statement, and I have not heard the Sylvia Syms record, I'd be, I'm fascinated to hear what This But, We'll The [music That's
Alec Wilder Oh I know. It's too bad, because that opening line of that song she completely ignores.
Alec Wilder She sings part of it.
Studs Terkel Something about the song that you point out in your comments on Vernon Duke, on this particular one, "What is There to Say," is more than a great model of theater songwriting it's the case of every note counting and not one false move along the way. We're not now talking about the performance, but about the actual writing
Alec Wilder The actual writing, and so when I don't hear those actual notes, I get a little disturbed.
Studs Terkel Well, there's no doubt [throat clearing] about the next performer, and another -- Hoagy Carmichael in this case's song associated "Rockin' Chair" with one singer, well, two: Jack Teagarden is one, but particularly Mildred Bailey.
Studs Terkel Carmichael. Hoagy Carmichael.
Alec Wilder Yeah, an extraordinary man. A a writer of, of, and a very interesting thing about Carmichael is that he was the first as far as I know name mentioned by disc jockeys in association with songs we were going to play. Always his name and much later came, ment- mentioning people like Rodgers, [page turning noise] very seldom Arlen, never that wonderful fellow out in -- did a lot of movies. I can't even think of his name myself now, but Carmichael's name always, when the title of the song, the name, and I've never figured
Harry Bouras Hoagy Carmichael had a double reputation. He was a, he was one of the first personality people.
Harry Bouras He, he did ads, [page turning noise] he worked in shows
Harry Bouras He sang, he performed, he appeared in films
Harry Bouras But he had, he had a general [page turning noise] "about town"
Alec Wilder Maybe
Harry Bouras And this is one reason-
Alec Wilder Yep.
Harry Bouras -that I think something's interesting about Carmichael, I wonder if you agree, and that is, he either writes a very, a very fine song with one clear vision to it, or nothing. Or they're bad. They're either really very good
Alec Wilder Yep.
Harry Bouras Or nothing at all. There are no in-between songs for Carmichael.
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras Would you agree with that? It's very funny. He either -- it's like he conceives of it as a lump, as a whole and it's there and it's totally boring
Studs Terkel And you know, something else occurs to me. This is on the chapter, Wilder's chapter, "The Great Craftsmen," Carmichael's in this, that here's someone Indiana, here's someone Midwest, just occurred to me, most of the songwriters we've had thus far have been Eastern Seaboard men.
Alec Wilder That's right. That's right.
Studs Terkel And we ought to come to Mercer in a moment on the West Coast
Alec Wilder Well, no. Savannah.
Studs Terkel But he's Midwest. Carmichael.
Alec Wilder Yeah, and remember, a great friend of Beiderbecke's, and that was his, and his idol.
Studs Terkel So there again, Midwest.
Harry Bouras And accounts for a lot of
Harry Bouras [Inter?] trumpet lines.
Harry Bouras Things of that sort.
Harry Bouras It's interesting, though, to see one other thing. Sophistication now is -- from here on in is not a major point of a song. Just to be sophisticated is not a sufficient rationale for the existence of a song as you -- as we found, you know, in in Porter.
Alec Wilder Well, remember those are Porter songs. Now we're in the pop world.
Studs Terkel Yeah. But you know it's interesting, Wilder, Alec Wilder and all those 17,000 works of sheet music, you, as you analyze "Rockin' Chair," how difficult it is for you to forget-
Alec Wilder No.
Studs Terkel -the interpretation of Mildred Bailey. No.
Alec Wilder No. Almost impossible. [Music fading] Oh, lordy, who's that girl?
Studs Terkel I thought you'd like her, Janet [Price?].
Alec Wilder Woo-ooh!
Studs Terkel I don't know what happened
Alec Wilder What happened to her? That's a great voice.
Studs Terkel She sang around here in the, in Chicago and
Studs Terkel The '50s, early '50s.
Alec Wilder It's sad. Marcy Lutes. Strangely, there was a little girl Marcy Lutes, the prettiest little girl sang incredibly. I don't know. Somebody told me she was a waitress someplace, as hostess in some
Studs Terkel And so we talk about
Studs Terkel The waste of talent. Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras both my guests and this is a three-part program, this is part three, based on Wilder's book, "American Popular Song: the Great Innovators, 1900 - 1950," and it's a compendium and more than that, a view of a very perceptive observer of the pop music, indeed the American musical scene, and it's quite marvelous, and we'll take a slight pause and continue with a silent Harry Bouras I trust chipping in more and more here.
Harry Bouras Just very moved by what I'm hearing.
Studs Terkel Resuming the conversation with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras, and this is a chapter toward the latter part of of Alec's book, "The Great Craftsmen," and these little-known guys, and there's John Green.
Alec Wilder Well, he's not so little-known. After all, he
Studs Terkel I mean to the general public.
Alec Wilder To the general -- well, "Body and Soul" of course is part of the language. This is one of his songs. There are some, "Easy Come Easy Go" is a song that I think is one of his best songs which is not so well-known.
Studs Terkel Why, why "Easy Come Easy Go"?
Alec Wilder I don't know, it just happens to be a, a, a superb song. A lot of great songs, you know, didn't reach their -- that's the usual attitude, that they didn't get to the public, they weren't worth it. It's not true. I think you'll find there are hundreds of songs in here that never reached any popularity, and they're very worthy
Studs Terkel This is one by a guy [page turning noise], Hugh Shannon, who sings, there are these clubs where kind of Bobby Short used
Alec Wilder Musicians love him. They feel that he's honorable to the song, you know.
Studs Terkel And and so this is Hugh Shannon, who would play at at a certain two o'clock in the morning places
Studs Terkel And John Green's "Easy Come, Easy Go." [Music fading]
Harry Bouras You know, Studs, one of the things that that song, "Easy Come, Easy Go" calls to mind, if you'll read titles in that area, one of the devices of the pop singer is to take a standard -- the pop composer, is to take a standard phrase in the language and and then tie the song to it. And a lot of the songs, a lot of the [match strike] standards that are not attached to shows, you find things like this.
Alec Wilder But you find it in Hart all the time. "My Heart Stood Still."
Harry Bouras Right.
Alec Wilder "I Didn't Know What Time it Was."
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder "If I Could Write a Book." Endless occurrences.
Harry Bouras This is a standard, I, I don't know if it was pointed up in an earlier show or something, but this is a standard device, and it goes all through the whole -- so they take, lift something bodily out of the language and then interpret the phrase, give it a leg--
Studs Terkel Taking it, taking a a cliche in everyday language and making it something beyond it.
Harry Bouras Well, you see, they have already a hook into the conscious
Alec Wilder That's right. That's right.
Alec Wilder John Green did some of, "I Cover the Waterfront," and of course "Body and Soul," which is the most famous
Studs Terkel Now, here's a case, isn't it, "Body and Soul" we think of Libby Holman in "Three's a Crowd"
Studs Terkel And now, that's the point, isn't it? Sometimes a popular song is taken by a jazz artist and becomes a classic, as Coleman Hawkins did-
Studs Terkel
Alec Wilder That's an evergreen, that's sung by the composer, Harold Arlen, a wistful quality, we almost almost hear the man listening to the melody he wrote. Harold Arlen is one of the heroes of the book of Alec Wilder. This is part three of a three-part series. Alec Wilder, a very distinguished American composer, a very prolific one, and quite an observer of the scene, writer of popular songs himself, but also of other music, too, on some forthcoming program, that. But his new book, his book is "American Popular Song," subtitled "The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," Oxford Press the publishers, beginning as it did during the first chapter of this three-part series with America turn of the century into the 19th century. Jerome Kern the first perhaps of popular song writers being indigenous to the American, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Cole Porter, a variety of others, Rodgers, and we come now to Harold Arlen. Part two ended with Arlen's "Got a Right to Sing the Blues," and Harry Bouras is also a guest on this program. Harry, our art critic, a sculptor artist, and a man of all interests indeed, so we're commenting on on the book. And on Harold Arlen this moment, and listening to the composer sing "Stormy Weather," Alec. Yeah, well, he's you can see that the man has a very profound interest in not only the American thing, but he has a, there are overtones of the, of of the Negro singer in his singing, which is kind of fascinating considering the fact that he was the son of a cantor. But this is -- everything about the the approach is is the, I'm sure, and in fact he he he says himself that he has this desire to to make the American statement in terms of of the Negro performer and the Negro singer. I, I'm, I've heard this song once. I don't even know if I mentioned it in the book. I heard a guy sing it. I'd never heard the song, and he sang it without any accompaniment. We were coming in on one of those open-end observation car trains what they they had them thousand years ago, and we were standing on this platform on a spring night, and he sang this song, "Stormy Weather," no harmony, nothing, and I was goosebumped by it. Yeah. And that's about the time I realized that this man had a way of writing that was unique for me, and I still think so. I just wish I hear that he's starting to write again, I hope he does. I don't know what place he'll have in this extraordinary society, but I hope that they're planning to do an hour and a half special on him, which requires new songs and I hope he gets to work, because he's been a very sad man. See on this program we won't even be talking about some of the musicals he worked on, particularly "Bloomer Girl" with Yip Harburg -- And then a great show, "St. Louis Woman," which didn't succeed, but had some great songs in it. Harry, your thoughts on this? Or? Oh, just very briefly about Arlen is that the songs are always small dramatic structures. Yeah right. One of the things he does is, he really conceives of the song as a circumscribed drama. That's right. [lighter A very brief one. And he takes an emotional situation, a very clear one, and explores it. And does something about it, and the song usually has like an introduction of the the person's character, then the problem You -and then their confrontation with the problem, and this is true of all, almost all of As you say this, this song of course has been associated mostly with Ethel Waters in her prime. Right. And so the drama that Harry is talking about -- She really made it apparent. I mean, he's singing it as a composer would sing it for the musical line, not as a singer would perform it, but when she did, the whole predicament of, you know, being constantly troubled and constantly in a storm and not being able to get away from it, and age encroaching, old rocking chair getting one, and so on, that. And Alec also touches -- interesting thing about the book, "American Popular Song," though, of Alec Wilder, is that you also call upon songs -- we should remind the audience you went through 17,000 pieces of sheet music, that you also touch upon little-known songs like, "When the Sun Comes Out," Arlen Yeah, this was a song I, by the way, found lying around on a shelf virtually covered with dust in a publisher's -- I didn't even know it existed. I found out later there'd been about one record made on it. I took it to all kinds of people- Yeah. -pleading with them to to revive it, to to make it happen. And today it's only really known among the music people themselves, it's not a public song really. I think one of his best songs. This one. Jeri Southern, by the way, is one of those Oh, Little-known singers, underrated singers. Oh wow [whistle] I wish she'd go out back to work, she's -- Teaching school now. Yeah. Yeah. [music fades] I know that's [hard?] Sorry, I -- Alec wanted to cut that -- I know -- Alec Too much! Look, the lyric, the singer, [laughter] the melody, you can't stop those things. And that's Arlen to me at his finest. Yeah. And by the way, I want to know -- there are not many writers who could have written that song. Really they're not. Do you do you notice how the lines, I mean the, first of all the length of those musical lines -- That's right. How they flowed and fed into each other, there wasn't a seam! That's right. No seam! Nothing! That's It just -- and when we come back to the restatement, beginning with that sun ligature -- That's right. At the end of the chorus, it starts again. And the sun does come out, it's the high note in the piece -- That's And it opens up. And the song spreads out, and it just gets ecstatic. That's right. One, one line. One incredible line. That's right. It's interesting as we're talking about the flow of Arlen's music and writing, Alec Wilder and and Harry Bouras here, that a number of the songs deal with the nature of climate and weather, "Stormy Weather," "Sun Comes Out," or for that matter we'll hear a passage, a part of Lena Horne doing "Ill Wind." Another great song. But it's the aspect of -- have you ever talked about that, because you know Arlen quite well, Alec, have you talked -- No, I don't know whether this came from his lyric writers or whether he suggested, because he likes to get involved with the lyrics, I know, himself. But also the melancholy, you you point out -- The melancholy, yeah. Two sixty-four of Wilder's book, the sequence on Harold Arlen, Arlen's melancholy use of octaves and the release, they have a very instrumental cast, but in the hands of a competent singer," such as Jeri Southern here, "They come off splendidly as song." Yeah, he did this, this was a characteristic. Oh, bless him. "Ill, Ill wind," we continue with a matter of weather and portentousness. [music fading][whistling] Flowing from the end, This is real lieder writing. And I think he's extraordinary. Now, those octaves, though, are, are -- Nobody did it but him. But there's they're the kind of things that instrumentalists will do. That's right. When they're playing they'll drop that, it's it's a saxophone idea. That's right. It's a sax and then they'll drop it and then go right back. One of his earliest songs he told me he picked it up from a riff he heard a trumpet player, that "Sweet and Hot" [sings]. Well, that's a little riff, he -- perfectly willing to admit it. This is very funny you say this, we pick up from the trumpet player, that it's as though the singer is an instrument, too. That's right. That's very true. Ellington singers, and with -- And yet, they sing, They all sing. Yeah, yeah. I think one of one of the remarkable combinations in theater and in pop music is Harold Arlen and Yip Harburg, E.Y. Harburg, the lyricist and we think of naturally "Over the Rainbow," Judy Garland -- No, no, not -- no, that was something else again. Oh, you mean -- it didn't -- weren't you going to do one with -- oh, no, you don't have the -- he did one song with Harold, that one about -- "Old Devil Moon." We'll No, that's, that's, that's Lane. That's Lane. That's Lane. No, I'm thinking of "Over the Rainbow." "Over The Rainbow," was that Harburg? Yeah. That was! You're right, you're right, you're right. It was. Now here, perhaps we should hear this again, continuing again with the weather, this time rainbow -- That's the weather again, that's right. What were you -- suppose we listen to that -- what'd you describe it, Harry, again? That flow, how'd you describe it again? Seamless. Seamless. Seamless, right, right. [laughter] [music fading] You were saying something, we stated this earlier because Alec Wilder, you were saying something here. You mean about -- I, I hesitate to say anything not complimentary about Mr. Arlen, but this song always felt to me like a, not a contrivance, but a less than, less than inspired song. It certainly works for a singer, probably worked marvelously in the movie, and it was, heaven knows when Miss Garland sings it, it's, you know, perfection, but it doesn't have that extraordinary flair. It's a, I think it may be that it doesn't have that curious American flavor that those other songs had, maybe even the derivation from the Negro point of view, Negro style of singing. He told me, Mr. Arlen did, that they were very -- he he found the melody. He stopped the car, he said, he just jotted it down, the first strain, and he said there was a big problem. They knew what they wanted for a title, but they couldn't figure out what those first two syllables would be, and he said it was like the sun coming out when, when Mr. Harburg said, "It's, the word is 'somewhere.'" Somewhere, yeah. They couldn't figure out, if -- they knew it was "Over the Rainbow," but what do you say before that? "It's somewhere." A nice moment. You know, I was thinking as we're talking with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras about Wilder's book, "American Popular Song," the vari-- the number of other composers of popular songs that were little-known, [best?] we leave Arlen just this one comment Alec Wilder made here: "The reader may notice the absence of any mention in this discussion of Arlen's, of Arlen's music of his American-ness. This is very simply -- of course, even more than the case of Berlin. There's nothing else. Even Arlen's later, more mature and ambitious melodies, he never drew upon, influenced by European music of any kind." That's "Wholly a product of American jazz, big band music, and American popular song." That's right. Exactly. Arlen. Now we come to Burton Lane. I ment -- you have, you have passages about Vincent Youmans and Arthur Schwartz, good writers, we naturally we wouldn't be, have the time to -- Right. Play a variety of their of their work. But Burton Lane, who -- Wrote [unintelligible]. Wrote "Finian's Rainbow" and others. He wrote -- that, that's "Finian's" was probably his biggest score, but he wrote some other remarkable songs [page turning noise] like, you know, "How About You?" which I don't think you have a record of, it's a it's probably his most popular song. [Sings], "how about you?" But he wrote some very good -- He says in it, incidentally, Alec, "I like a Gershwin tune. How about you?" He does indeed. You know the lyric well. You know what Sinatra did one night when I was in the place, he said, "I like a Wilder tune," I fainted. Fainted.[laughter] Dead away. You know what would be a good example of Lane working in this case with a lyricist, Harburg, from "Finian's," "Old Devil Moon" with Ella Logan singing. Remarkable song! And I think Ella of course is is the definitive performance. [music fading] [Unintelligible] Burton Lane here has over Harold Arlen -- I wonder if he's influenced by Arlen, possibly. I don't know. I know he -- that the musical trick here is to use one of the modes, it's a mixolydian mode device. The seventh -- well, I won't go into that. Who cares? No, but it's a musical device, and it works perfectly. It's a remarkable Another thing that's involved in it is that to your razzle-dazzle is a little lick. It is a lick, that's right. [Sings] And that that's, of course, where it ties in with Arlen. It's out of the band. Out of the band. It's something a guy in a band would do. That's right. At the end of a phrase. You you know, one of the most fascinating of of composers of popular -- in fact, this man I guess would, might be schizophrenic. Vernon Duke or Vladimir Dukelsky. Yeah He had two lives, didn't he? He sure did. And he was rather bitter about the other life, because he was never really accepted as a composer, he's a great songwriter. Now, Dukelsky was the classical composer. That's right. But it's Vernon Duke, the popular composer, we best That's right. And marvelous to me. What was it about it, we think, naturally think about "Can't Get Started," we hear Bunny Berrigan, a jazz man, do it. And here let -- here's a case of popular song lending itself to jazz interpretation. Right. Right. That's true. Although it's a great song by itself as a song, but it, it's always been a jazz man's favorite. But here again I suppose lyrics. This was Ira Gershwin. That's right. Lyrics. So here again the lyricist, we come back to the song, don't we? Can I make a little point? To go back about the Burton Lane. It was wonderful when we listening to Logan and that anonymous young man who's kind of a standard -- I forgot he was the lead in the original, I'll think of his The interesting thing is, is that song could very well have died. I don't, I don't think Burton Lane is as interesting as as you do, Alec. I just -- Well, I, just a That song could have totally vanished had it not been for her performance. Maybe A totally magical thing happened: one is a show song. You know, when the guy sings it and it just is -- you know, it's a nice tune and it's standard and it will work a season and that's the end of it. But the minute she comes in, something electric begins to happen. And the performer -- and, it's what's got to be kept in mind all of the time is that the pop song does not exist without the good performance. Yeah And yet the performer is a band or a singer, well, that's really important. Granted, and yet you realize the problem I was up against in this book and I had to forget those performances because I had to judge from the sheet music. Oh, What's there. Yeah. Not what did Sinatra do, because Sinatra can sing "Trees" and make me a happy -- But yours is strictly the work of the composer and to some extent the lyricist from- That's right. -the Yeah, no performance should be considered or the show or whatever it was, the movie or anything else, because that'll throw you, because my memories of some songs that -- I keep going back to Sinatra, that he's done -- I had to, I had to just blank out the memory, because I would say, "This is a great song," and it wasn't! He did it, he made it -- One of the classics, a Vernon Duke song, one of his greatest, "I Can't Get Started," that Bunny Berrigan, that marvelous jazzman, sang and unfortunately, our record is all cracked and goofed up, and it's his trumpet and his voice, but continuing with Vernon Duke, another song of his that Alec Wilder likes is, what was "What is There to Say." "What is There to Say." I don't know whether it was in a production or movie or, it's just another very fine melody, and it has in it a little melodic device I've never heard before, which will become very apparent, it's a series of [sings], it's a very simple little idea, but it comes off in contrast to the opening statement, and I have not heard the Sylvia Syms record, I'd be, I'm fascinated to hear what This But, We'll The [music Oh I know. It's too bad, because that opening line of that song she completely ignores. Yeah, but the -- She sings part of it. Something about the song that you point out in your comments on Vernon Duke, on this particular one, "What is There to Say," is more than a great model of theater songwriting it's the case of every note counting and not one false move along the way. We're not now talking about the performance, but about the actual writing itself. The actual writing, and so when I don't hear those actual notes, I get a little disturbed. Well, there's no doubt [throat clearing] about the next performer, and another -- Hoagy Carmichael in this case's song associated "Rockin' Chair" with one singer, well, two: Jack Teagarden is one, but particularly Mildred Bailey. That's right. Carmichael. Hoagy Carmichael. Yeah, an extraordinary man. A a writer of, of, and a very interesting thing about Carmichael is that he was the first as far as I know name mentioned by disc jockeys in association with songs we were going to play. Always his name and much later came, ment- mentioning people like Rodgers, [page turning noise] very seldom Arlen, never that wonderful fellow out in -- did a lot of movies. I can't even think of his name myself now, but Carmichael's name always, when the title of the song, the name, and I've never figured out Hoagy Carmichael had a double reputation. He was a, he was one of the first personality people. That's right. He, he did ads, [page turning noise] he worked in shows -- I never knew that. He sang, he performed, he appeared in films -- That's later, though. But he had, he had a general [page turning noise] "about town" kind Maybe And this is one reason- Yep. -that I think something's interesting about Carmichael, I wonder if you agree, and that is, he either writes a very, a very fine song with one clear vision to it, or nothing. Or they're bad. They're either really very good -- Yep. Or nothing at all. There are no in-between songs for Carmichael. That's Would you agree with that? It's very funny. He either -- it's like he conceives of it as a lump, as a whole and it's there and it's totally boring -- And you know, something else occurs to me. This is on the chapter, Wilder's chapter, "The Great Craftsmen," Carmichael's in this, that here's someone Indiana, here's someone Midwest, just occurred to me, most of the songwriters we've had thus far have been Eastern Seaboard men. That's right. That's right. And we ought to come to Mercer in a moment on the West Coast -- Well, no. Savannah. He was south. Savannah, yeah. But he's Midwest. Carmichael. Yeah, and remember, a great friend of Beiderbecke's, and that was his, and his idol. So there again, Midwest. And accounts for a lot of his That's right. [Inter?] trumpet lines. That's right. Things of that sort. That's right. Oh, we've got It's interesting, though, to see one other thing. Sophistication now is -- from here on in is not a major point of a song. Just to be sophisticated is not a sufficient rationale for the existence of a song as you -- as we found, you know, in in Porter. Well, remember those are Porter songs. Now we're in the pop world. Yeah. But you know it's interesting, Wilder, Alec Wilder and all those 17,000 works of sheet music, you, as you analyze "Rockin' Chair," how difficult it is for you to forget- No. -the interpretation of Mildred Bailey. No. Almost impossible. [Music fading] Oh, lordy, who's that girl? I thought you'd like her, Janet [Price?]. Woo-ooh! I don't know what happened to What happened to her? That's a great voice. She sang around here in the, in Chicago and -- How long ago? The '50s, early '50s. It's sad. Marcy Lutes. Strangely, there was a little girl Marcy Lutes, the prettiest little girl sang incredibly. I don't know. Somebody told me she was a waitress someplace, as hostess in some -- And so we talk about -- Holiday Inn. The waste of talent. Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras both my guests and this is a three-part program, this is part three, based on Wilder's book, "American Popular Song: the Great Innovators, 1900 - 1950," and it's a compendium and more than that, a view of a very perceptive observer of the pop music, indeed the American musical scene, and it's quite marvelous, and we'll take a slight pause and continue with a silent Harry Bouras I trust chipping in more and more here. Just very moved by what I'm hearing. Resuming the conversation with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras, and this is a chapter toward the latter part of of Alec's book, "The Great Craftsmen," and these little-known guys, and there's John Green. Well, he's not so little-known. After all, he -- I mean to the general public. To the general -- well, "Body and Soul" of course is part of the language. This is one of his songs. There are some, "Easy Come Easy Go" is a song that I think is one of his best songs which is not so well-known. Why, why "Easy Come Easy Go"? I don't know, it just happens to be a, a, a superb song. A lot of great songs, you know, didn't reach their -- that's the usual attitude, that they didn't get to the public, they weren't worth it. It's not true. I think you'll find there are hundreds of songs in here that never reached any popularity, and they're very worthy songs. This is one by a guy [page turning noise], Hugh Shannon, who sings, there are these clubs where kind of Bobby Short used to Musicians love him. They feel that he's honorable to the song, you know. And and so this is Hugh Shannon, who would play at at a certain two o'clock in the morning places -- That's right. That's And John Green's "Easy Come, Easy Go." [Music fading] You know, Studs, one of the things that that song, "Easy Come, Easy Go" calls to mind, if you'll read titles in that area, one of the devices of the pop singer is to take a standard -- the pop composer, is to take a standard phrase in the language and and then tie the song to it. And a lot of the songs, a lot of the [match strike] standards that are not attached to shows, you find things like this. But you find it in Hart all the time. "My Heart Stood Still." Right. "I Didn't Know What Time it Was." Yeah. "If I Could Write a Book." Endless occurrences. This is a standard, I, I don't know if it was pointed up in an earlier show or something, but this is a standard device, and it goes all through the whole -- so they take, lift something bodily out of the language and then interpret the phrase, give it a leg-- Taking it, taking a a cliche in everyday language and making it something beyond it. Yeah, right. Well, you see, they have already a hook into the conscious -- That's right. That's right. Of the public. John Green. John Green did some of, "I Cover the Waterfront," and of course "Body and Soul," which is the most famous of Now, here's a case, isn't it, "Body and Soul" we think of Libby Holman in "Three's a Crowd" -- And Mr. Hawkins? And now, that's the point, isn't it? Sometimes a popular song is taken by a jazz artist and becomes a classic, as Coleman Hawkins did- That's right. -in That's
Studs Terkel But what "Body and Soul" of course become also a standard, hasn't it, Harry, among particularly women singers. Again, that two o'clock in the morning voice.
Studs Terkel But would you -- I'm sorry, what were you
Harry Bouras I was going to say, "Body and Soul" gives you again an instantaneous character. What happens is, if if the singer can engender with the text of the song an immediate pin spot on their face, whether it's there or not, then they've got a song that they love to perform, and "Body and Soul" of course is that kind of song, you're immediately -- and it's a Helen Trent-ish song. I've never found the lyrics very interesting, very interesting or really worth anything, but it works as a dramatic song.
Studs Terkel [Unintelligible] a dramatic song, see where Hawkins also and Wilder points this out in this book, it allows so much improvisation.
Harry Bouras Sure.
Studs Terkel A case in point. And again the cliche, "body and soul," used in language, the guy who owns me body and soul, you know, this guy, this boss I work for, you know, whatever the phrase. And here's Green taking it. And at a certain moment in 1930, again the Depression, and Libby Holman. [Music fading] You know, it seems, we listen to it now, it seems, the interpretation may seem corny to us at this moment-
Alec Wilder Yes.
Studs Terkel -Libby Holman doing it, but at that moment
Alec Wilder Little operatic, but.
Studs Terkel But Harry made a point. Harry, you wanna -- that it's not so much the lyrics, here, here's a case where the lyrics were not that
Harry Bouras Oh we, well, you know we were talking earlier, we had a great imbalance, because we came to some great songs and great [match strike] lyrics matching, and then we had Porter and Hart and Rodgers, which set up a false kind of picture of really great combinations and great lyrics. [match strike] Most often, you have a a an interesting lyric and maybe a great tune, or a bad lyric and a and a very good tune, or a great lyric and a nothing tune. There are all these, these combinations that go on. What becomes an instrumental, a tune can be like old "Rockin' Chair," for instance, is a very good instrumental and it's used a lot. The musicians while they're playing that are hearing Mildred in a funny way, and the words still exist, and if you listen to them perform
Harry Bouras Right! Or if you listen to a guy for instance like Desmond perform some time, he's talking at the same time he's performing when the lyrics are really part of the song. When it's not, they don't pay any attention to them, and you don't hear the words, so they get dropped along the way.
Alec Wilder That's right, That's right.
Studs Terkel Another composer just as -- whom we know little about, that is, the musicians do, and his fellow, his colleagues do. But the public doesn't, Jimmy Van Heusen, is a case in point.
Alec Wilder Well
Studs Terkel Whom you describe
Alec Wilder Yeah, he's a very talented man. He did all those "Road to" pictures with Crosby.
Harry Bouras Tied in to Crosby very much.
Alec Wilder Not all of them, because it started with Jimmy Monaco, but he picked up on them, and you -- "Call Me Irresponsible," and, and "Love and Marriage," and oh, that "Love" -- oh, what is that? One of his biggest songs. "All the Way."
Studs Terkel I'm thinking of a song that you like very much.
Alec Wilder It's one of his earliest, by the way. This is one of his earliest songs. 'Way back in the '30s, and it was a thing called, "Swinging the Dream."
Studs Terkel I was thinking, "Swinging the Dream" was that disastrous
Studs Terkel "A Midsummer Night's Dream" with Benny Goodman in it, and Bud Friedman-
Studs Terkel -and it went kerflooey, but from it was the song, "Darn that Dream."
Alec Wilder Right. A good song. Which is, by the way, very characteristic of Jimmy's writing. The bass line, which I talk about, his bass line's very
Studs Terkel There's something else that Alec Wilder points out here, on page 444 of his book, "American Popular Song," about this one song, about Jimmy Van Heusen: "He arrived at a time when sophistication and chance-taking had become a way of writing for those who chose to do it." This is 1939, around there. "The public, through the bands with their highly complex arrangements," the big jazz bands, and dance bands, and dance bands "had opened their ears and become used to more daring pop tunes."
Studs Terkel And this is a good case in point, isn't it?
Studs Terkel [Music fading] Here's a case of Mildred Bailey singing a pop song, but also jazz-oriented guys backin' her.
Alec Wilder That's right. I thought it was Benny, I don't know who, what the group is, but it must be a Sauter arrangement.
Studs Terkel You called the shot, Eddie
Studs Terkel Yeah. So it's a, as a case now, as we near the end of this three-part series dealing with Alec Wilder's book, "American Popular Song," something is, is coming through here very dramatically, too: the beginnings 'way back with Jerome Kern breaking away from Viennese influence, Gershwin, Cole Porter, Harold Arlen, the effect of jazz upon
Alec Wilder Tremendous effect.
Studs Terkel Jazz's effect on popular music in both ways.
Alec Wilder Right.
Studs Terkel And there's a fusion here.
Alec Wilder And probably, and probably some of the unsung heroes were the composers whom they heard and incorporated styles of into their writing and that seeped through to the writers. But it wasn't just that, because the thing, the thing cracked open. Undoubtedly, there's no doubt about it, from, from the, from the Negro. I don't think there's any possible doubt of it.
Alec Wilder It never would have started up, because Victor Herbert never cared, except I think I mentioned to you that on the
Alec Wilder First time that "Indian Summer" was an instrumental, but finally had words put to it years later, and that had this curious American sound, nothing else.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Harry Bouras A good example of what what could have happened if it hadn't been for the Black influence is the French popular song.
Harry Bouras French songs are great. They're wonderful, but they're [page turning noise] -- they're art songs in a funny way. They're still in the tradition of Aristide Bruant, they're still in the, even the Trenet songs,
Harry Bouras Trenet is probably
Harry Bouras "La Mer," though, is still, still is a very stagey song. It's a magnificent -- it's his greatest song, but "La Mer" is is still a construct of a certain sort, it doesn't
Alec Wilder Yeah, but it couldn't have been written without American songs. If he hadn't heard them.
Harry Bouras Yeah.
Alec Wilder That's what I think. I know -- well, of course, that Jacques
Harry Bouras Brel. Jacques Brel.
Alec Wilder Representing, that, that's -- that has nothing to do with the case at all, it's nothing to do
Studs Terkel He is something wholly different, he's a different kind of -- song very powerful, but
Alec Wilder Yeah.
Studs Terkel You're not talking about an American
Studs Terkel "Mandy" is, too. This is one -- here's Johnny Mercer's lyrics written for a certain occasion, and a guy named McGrath did the
Alec Wilder Yeah, Fidgy McGrath, yeah, and it was for John's I believe daughter. Mandy, and it was how long ago, because she's probably a grandmother by now, but it's a dear song, and I don't know, this is Miss Holiday?
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder Well, we don't know whether we're going to hear the song or not.
Studs Terkel He's worried again.
Alec Wilder I wish we did. The lyric, though, listen to the lyric.
Studs Terkel But here again, the case in point of a jazz singer or jazz accompanist, of course, backing Billie Holiday, and a seemingly sentimental song
Alec Wilder Oh, very, a very childlike innocent song.
Studs Terkel What happens to it?
Studs Terkel [Music fading] All we've been doing, listening to Billie Holiday, and "Mandy," is, too, during these three hours, this is the third, the final program of the series based upon Alec Wilder's book with Harry Bouras here, too, "American Popular Song: the Great Innovators, from 19-- turn of the century, 1900 to 1950," and from then on, Alec, you sense changes occurring, perhaps as world -- post-World War Two.
Alec Wilder Well, the amateurs took over.
Harry Bouras Here we go! Go on, Alec!
Alec Wilder No, no, no. I won't. No, I get too nervous, too irritated, and it'll just wreck everything.
Studs Terkel Well, is it the fact that many things have happened since then? The book, by the way, is quite marvelous, and you end with Frank Loesser, and perhaps
Alec Wilder Not because he was the latest one, but I just, I don't know how it happened. I -- extraordinary song which was unlike anything he ever wrote, a very beautiful song in "Guys and Dolls." What was the name of that song? It was
Studs Terkel "The More I Cannot Wish You."
Harry Bouras "More I Cannot Wish You," it was
Alec Wilder Glorious song! Extraordinary song! Lyrically, every way! Broke down all kinds of rules
Harry Bouras But you know what he did, you know how that song came about, he wrote it for Pat Rooney, Sr., and Pat Rooney, Sr. was a very, very special kind of performer, and he was, he's still, it's the definitive performance, and he could sing that kind of song and establish that immediate intimacy in a very large house, it opened at the ANTA Theatre, which is a 1299-seat house, you know, and Rooney could establish that, and that's how Loesser wrote, and the other tune he wrote for him was a little tune called "Inchworm."
Alec Wilder Oh, did he write "Inchworm"?
Harry Bouras Which is another extraordinary
Alec Wilder Oh, very strange, beautiful
Studs Terkel We have "Inchworm."
Alec Wilder You do? It's a little thing that children do, children's choruses do, because
Harry Bouras Yeah, oh, just a magnificent
Alec Wilder Very
Harry Bouras But you know, before we go on, Studs, just to talk about Mercer for a moment. "Her eyes are cornflower blue." There are people all over the United States who listen to "Moon River" and something perfectly exquisite happens to them when they hear "My Huckleberry friend." There are -- in, in, if you want to talk about an American writer
Alec Wilder Oh boy! Yeah, he's got it.
Harry Bouras This is the man. That I, I, "from the Atchison, Topeka," from a list about his little girl that is making you, breaking your heart, saying that she knows her alphabet and she can tie her shoes
Harry Bouras This is the most fundamental-
Studs Terkel You know, you know what occurs to
Harry Bouras -guy that ever wrote
Studs Terkel Just for a change of pace, before we hear Alec's song, he didn't include himself on this, "While We're Young," which is what I'm ending, just for a change of pace since we have slow ballads, "Mandy" is, too, suppose we hear "Atchison, Topeka, Santa Fe."
Alec Wilder Oh, that that that would be wonderful.
Harry Bouras That's such a great song.
Studs Terkel Even better! Rather than "Atchison, Topeka, Santa Fe," which is very good, "Accentuate the Positive," because here's Harold Arlen
Alec Wilder Right.
Studs Terkel Music, we come back to Arlen again and Johnny Mercer's lyrics, and the recurring theme of the book is the indigenous American quality of popular music, and what more perhaps than this one, by Mercer himself? [Music fading] I think this as we fade out, it seems like a cut here, it seems like a perfect way for the ending to Alec Wilder's book, and we're gonna to have a postscript song of Alec himself, "American Popular Song," and that's the book, "The Great Innovators, 1900 - 1950," and there's a marvelous intro by your friend James Maher, too
Studs Terkel And Oxford University Press are the publishers, and Harry, as since you're here, and you and I both admire Alec Wilder and his contributions, as do many of the jazz artists and pop singers, performers. One of Alec's own songs, he hasn't included himself on here, and you thought of "While We're Young."
Harry Bouras It's a,a fascinat- it's a very beautiful song, the lyric is -- is it yours, Alec?
Alec Wilder No. It's Bill Engvick's.
Harry Bouras Bill Engvick's lyric. That's right.
Alec Wilder Remarkable.
Harry Bouras But the, the interesting thing I think that can be said about this song. First of all, it's Alec's modesty that keeps himself out of the book. Certainly has been, when the great craftsmen, he's one of the great craftsmen. No question about it. "While We're Young," and "I'll Be Around"--
Studs Terkel "So Peaceful in the Country."
Harry Bouras And "Winter of Our Discontent," "Rain Rain, Don't Go Away," "Peaceful in the Country," a dozen other songs,
Studs Terkel Her side, by the way
Harry Bouras He's just being modest.
Alec Wilder No, I don't -- how do you, how do you criticize yourself?
Harry Bouras Well, I think you should consider yourself truly
Alec Wilder This really stinks. I mean, what do you say? I mean
Harry Bouras But but the interesting thing, and maybe a comment on this whole book, is the song "While We're Young" says that the songs are made to sing while we're young, and they refer to really the songs from 1900 to 1950, this period of song. And the only kind of comment about music since 1950 that relates to Alec's music and relates to this book and his dear prejudices in this book, which is what makes it a wonderful book, his point of view, is probably that there is no longer youth. There is no longer a state [lighter strike] of being young as being young was when these pop songs
Alec Wilder
Harry Bouras That's -were written. Being young now is being a young concerned adult without adolescence, without that whole buffer state of non-being in adolescent twilight. It's all gone.
Alec Wilder Yep.
Harry Bouras And these songs were maybe written for that period and then held onto as one matured as a kind of anchor in a hostile world and an un-understandable world. And that kind of young is gone.
Harry Bouras So in a very funny way, "While We're Young" is, is, is an epitaph. And at the same time, you know, a plea.
Alec Wilder Yeah.
Studs Terkel Well, here. What, what more appropriate singer, interpreter of Alec's song as Harry is, has said so beautifully, too, is Mabel Mercer?
Alec Wilder Right.
Studs Terkel Interpreting it, too. Wilder's "While We're Young" and thank you to Alec Wilder
Studs Terkel And Harry Bouras and the book is "American Popular Song," Oxford University Press, it's quite available, and "While We're Young."
