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Herman and Rick Kogan discuss their book "Yesterday's Chicago"

BROADCAST: Oct. 15, 1976 | DURATION: 00:42:21

Synopsis

Herman and Rick Kogan give a brief overview of the history of Chicago (1816-1955) by discussing their book "Yesterday's Chicago".

Transcript

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Studs Terkel My guests this morning, a father and son, and it was inevitable there'd be this collaboration between Herman Kogan and his son Rick. Herman, you know, has with so many years, has been one of the really fine journalists of our city of the Midwest. He has been for so many years Book Editor of "Sun-Times" and drama critic and investigative reporter and through the years, too, he in collaboration to some extent had a number of books with Lloyd Wendt, have written these chronicles of Chicago, "Lords of the Levee," and and the one about the, oh, "Bet a Million Gates," and a [variety?]. And now, something that Claudia Cassidy calls an album, you might say a city album, rather than a family album, called "Yesterday's Chicago" that he and his son Rick have put together, Seemann are the publishers. And there are all sorts of photographs, some of which you may have seen, some which you haven't. But it isn't that, it's sort of a, almost a recollection of a time before us, and yet, part of us who live here most of our lives and so, very endearing album is what it really is. And so Herman and Rick Kogan, my guests, after this message, and the name of the book is "Yesterday's Chicago," part of a series involving yesterday and yet it's about Chicago today, too, and how it came to be, might be subtitled as "Roots."

Rick Kogan Wish I'd thought of that.

Studs Terkel The program in a moment after this message.

[content removed, see

Studs Terkel Oh, that's Win singing, Herman, that's probably one of the first chamber of commerce song about Chicago way back. And so this in a way is what your book is about, it goes way back to the beginnings, doesn't it?

Herman Kogan That goes even before the city was a city, before it was a village. Obviously nobody's around except me, except I, to know what it was like in the late 17th century, but that's what it is. It's -- A small percentage of the book is devoted to the very early days, very early years. What we try to do because the idea of the book is such that to have enough yesterdays so that people still alive, as you said earlier, can remember, reflect or at least if they weren't there, what their parents may have told them about.

Studs Terkel Some of the early prints, so the early prints are here in it, too, involving de La Salle, he spoke that this will be a seat of commerce, just as the song says, "A typical man who will grow up here must be an enterprising man. Each day as he rise, exclaim, 'I act, I move, I push.'" Rick, how did you and Herman come to do it, yourself, from 'way back, of course, thanks to your parents and the knowledge of the city and interest. You've had this curiosity,

Rick Kogan Oh, sure, I grew up, of course, in the 43rd Ward and would sit at Paddy Bauler's knee and would hear stories from Paddy Bauler which were stories of a sort of more raucous nature than I heard at home. But, you know, I'd hear my father say, "When you get older, you'll have to read this book, about "Bet a Million Gates," and you'll have to read this book that Lloyd Wendt and I wrote about Hinky Dink Kenna and Bathhouse John."

Studs Terkel Hinky Dink and Bathhouse John, of

Rick Kogan Other kids hearing Mother Goose stories, I'm hearing Bathhouse John stories, and finally I was old enough to read the book and sort of continued. I was fascinated with the history of Chicago even when I was a kid.

Studs Terkel And so the gathering of the photographs and of course, the writings, the photographs are of all varieties beginning early prints, aren't they. What do you think of this theory, because the book deals with that, the beginnings, there's an Englishman named Eric Hobsbawm, an English historian, Chicago was the city of technology, that is, the city came out of steel, was Chicago.

Herman Kogan True, very true.

Studs Terkel It does explain, of course, the architecture too, that came -- Let's sort of do this in a in a very improvisational way. I'm just choosing photographs and pages. It was the boomtown and Kinzie came along. It was a guy named Kinzie.

Herman Kogan Well, John Kinzie has always been by a certain segment of the population by some historians has been called the first settler in Chicago. We would say he was not, of course, it was du Sable, who was a Haitian, who was here long before Kinzie. He left in a hurry. Why, we don't know, somebody ought to do some research into that, and Kinzie became the first perm-- I suppose, first permanent white settler. A very interesting, very interesting man, committed a murder at one point, a very harsh man, a tough guy, kind of a quintessential Chicagoan, Studs, in many ways.

Studs Terkel I think where we are right now, we're at 500 North Michigan, now when du Sable settled, it was just a block away from here, wasn't it?

Herman Kogan Just a block away, just south of here.

Studs Terkel And where it's at, on, near the bridge on Wacker and Michigan.

Herman Kogan Right.

Studs Terkel So we're a block away, as we're talking now.

Herman Kogan Well, you know you and I walked down Michigan Avenue a lot and have seen, get, gotten that sense of history. You always do around that area because that's where it all, that's really where it all started. A lot has been done, as you know, to the river over the years. But but that's really where it started.

Rick Kogan It gives you a sense of time and place, I think, this in the book learning about the early settlers and the Indians and the Kinzies and the Beaubiens and I think it's easier to identify with place. You can see Chicago, and you can see people, and you can see buildings, but telling telling of the Indians here it gives you, it gives you more than a sense of time, a sense of place and a sense of being.

Studs Terkel I think about 'boom,' the word 'boom,' you know, the phrase used by de La Salle, "I act. I do, I push." So basically he says

Herman Kogan -- Pushers. Chicago's always had -- There are different kind of pushers, of course; boomers and boosters, they used to call them over the years in the '30s, 1830s, and you know that that Chicago spirit that the City Hall press agents are always talking about is a very, very true one.

Studs Terkel But this is entrepreneurial.

Herman Kogan Well, you remember, you know, Nelson in "City on the Make," he had it, the subtitle was right and that can be both complimentary and a derogatory term.

Studs Terkel The fact is these guys were up and they did take the Indians, the Pottawattamies.

Herman Kogan Oh, God, yes.

Studs Terkel It's funny, the streets -- Rick, you got Kinzie, you got Ogden, streets are named Kinzie, Ogden, we don't have any streets named after artists, do we?

Rick Kogan No, of course not. There's going to be a Terkel Boulevard if I have anything to say

Studs Terkel So we come to, we come to the early and the roughness of the town, visitors. In your book throughout you have various -- It goes in a sort of chronological order, doesn't it? In general, chronological, from beginnings all the way to today, but the visitors who came were always stunned. Yes and no, weren't they?

Rick Kogan Yes and no. Some of them went away, you know, Sarah Bernhardt thought this was, you know, a jewel of a place, and there were some others that had others opinion, other opinions. Fredrika Bremer, who was from Sweden, had some terrible things to say about about Chicago when she was

Herman Kogan here And

Rick Kogan Oh, of course, Oscar Wilde, yeah.

Studs Terkel Wilde said something, didn't he, about the, about the the Water Tower.

Rick Kogan Water Tower. A tesselated monstrosity.

Studs Terkel Tesselated monstrosity. And then of course, the fear of Chicago, and the wildness and sin, William Stead, "If Christ Came to Chicago."

Herman Kogan Oh, William Stead was a marvelous man in Chicago. That book, "If Christ Came to Chicago," I read it from cover to cover several times and what has always impressed me about "If Christ Came to Chicago" was its, it was written right after the World's Columbian Exposition, was its contemporary quality. You know, Stead in his book published a list of famous blacklist, in the back of the book, and he showed that a lot of the people who were inveighing, as they said, the editorial writers used to say, against sin and crime and corruption and the levee, which was the center of all that, were people who owned a great deal of the property there. And that hasn't changed a hell of a lot.

Studs Terkel So when two of your heroes, "Lords of the Levee," Bathhouse John Coughlin and Hinky Dink, had First Ward balls, it was attended by the respectable society,

Herman Kogan Oh, sure.

Rick Kogan As well as, as well as the disrespectables of society. It was just prostitutes and and all sorts of panderers mixed with with, you know, the cream of society.

Studs Terkel Now, Rick, as I'm thinking, Herman, the line of demarcation was always a very thin one here, wasn't

Rick Kogan It always has been. It's part of its problem, part of its charm.

Studs Terkel But always been that, a line between the resp-- And [line of fusion?] we come -- Of course, you can't talk about early Chicago, and Herman, you've written about this, too, in your book "Give the Lady What She Wants." Chicago and one of the key -- in the building new department stores.

Herman Kogan Oh, yeah, and of course, Marshall Field -- For Potter Palmer was one of the first innovators, an innovator in the whole field of merchandising 'way back in the '50s. He is the man who started the store that later became Marshall Field and Company. In 1852 he started that on Lake Street. Marshall Field and Levi Leiter worked for him as clerks and eventually he went on to other things like owning practically all of State Street, most of Lake Shore Drive.

Studs Terkel Since we're talking about buildings, on page 28 of the book of Herman and Rick Kogan's book, "Yesterday's Chicago," is the first, is "The Wigwam." You know, we're now, this program is taking place during the presidential campaign of 1976, but it was somewhat different in 1860. And it was in Chicago, wasn't it, "The Wigwam"? Why don't you sort of set the scene for this, Herman or Rick, together?

Herman Kogan Well, this was where the, you know, Chicago's first national political convention was held in "The Wigwam," which was a building that was put up very hastily in 1860 to house the Republican convention in which a fellow named Abraham Lincoln was nominated.

Studs Terkel But why did they -- I suppose it's natural that Chicago was a new party, a new kind of person. But why was Chicago chosen? By this time, was pretty well

Herman Kogan Well, 1860 was a very, it was, you know, it was rapidly becoming, as they say, a metropolis. There was a poet at the time, Will Carleton, who called it, you know, "The Queen of the North and the West," "The rich and voluptuous city, the beauty-thronged mansion-decked." How about that? If Jack Riley ever saw that, he'd steal it and use it again.

Studs Terkel "Gem of the" -- Wasn't there a phrase used, "gem of the prairie"?

Herman Kogan Well, "Gem of the Prairie," of course, was the name of a newspaper that used to narrate the doings and the events on the levee. The actual name of the newspaper.

Studs Terkel Oh, the levee was the, where

Herman Kogan -- The vice districts.

Studs Terkel The sporting houses were. And that was the gem of the prairie.

Herman Kogan The reason for the, I guess the reason, by 1860 Chicago's, you know, location has always been one of its obviously obvious prime assets. It simply was an easy place to come to for all the people to come, and there were still, there were also the boomers and boosters who kept urging people to come here.

Studs Terkel Booster

Herman Kogan Yeah, Deacon Bross.

Studs Terkel Deacon Bross. So we come to a certain song very popular then at the convention.

Studs Terkel

Rick Kogan My guests this morning, a father and son, and it was inevitable there'd be this collaboration between Herman Kogan and his son Rick. Herman, you know, has with so many years, has been one of the really fine journalists of our city of the Midwest. He has been for so many years Book Editor of "Sun-Times" and drama critic and investigative reporter and through the years, too, he in collaboration to some extent had a number of books with Lloyd Wendt, have written these chronicles of Chicago, "Lords of the Levee," and and the one about the, oh, "Bet a Million Gates," and a [variety?]. And now, something that Claudia Cassidy calls an album, you might say a city album, rather than a family album, called "Yesterday's Chicago" that he and his son Rick have put together, Seemann are the publishers. And there are all sorts of photographs, some of which you may have seen, some which you haven't. But it isn't that, it's sort of a, almost a recollection of a time before us, and yet, part of us who live here most of our lives and so, very endearing album is what it really is. And so Herman and Rick Kogan, my guests, after this message, and the name of the book is "Yesterday's Chicago," part of a series involving yesterday and yet it's about Chicago today, too, and how it came to be, might be subtitled as "Roots." Wish I'd thought of that. The program in a moment after this message. [content removed, see catalog Oh, that's Win singing, Herman, that's probably one of the first chamber of commerce song about Chicago way back. And so this in a way is what your book is about, it goes way back to the beginnings, doesn't it? That goes even before the city was a city, before it was a village. Obviously nobody's around except me, except I, to know what it was like in the late 17th century, but that's what it is. It's -- A small percentage of the book is devoted to the very early days, very early years. What we try to do because the idea of the book is such that to have enough yesterdays so that people still alive, as you said earlier, can remember, reflect or at least if they weren't there, what their parents may have told them about. Some of the early prints, so the early prints are here in it, too, involving de La Salle, he spoke that this will be a seat of commerce, just as the song says, "A typical man who will grow up here must be an enterprising man. Each day as he rise, exclaim, 'I act, I move, I push.'" Rick, how did you and Herman come to do it, yourself, from 'way back, of course, thanks to your parents and the knowledge of the city and interest. You've had this curiosity, I Oh, sure, I grew up, of course, in the 43rd Ward and would sit at Paddy Bauler's knee and would hear stories from Paddy Bauler which were stories of a sort of more raucous nature than I heard at home. But, you know, I'd hear my father say, "When you get older, you'll have to read this book, about "Bet a Million Gates," and you'll have to read this book that Lloyd Wendt and I wrote about Hinky Dink Kenna and Bathhouse John." Hinky Dink and Bathhouse John, of course. Other kids hearing Mother Goose stories, I'm hearing Bathhouse John stories, and finally I was old enough to read the book and sort of continued. I was fascinated with the history of Chicago even when I was a kid. And so the gathering of the photographs and of course, the writings, the photographs are of all varieties beginning early prints, aren't they. What do you think of this theory, because the book deals with that, the beginnings, there's an Englishman named Eric Hobsbawm, an English historian, Chicago was the city of technology, that is, the city came out of steel, was Chicago. True, very true. It does explain, of course, the architecture too, that came -- Let's sort of do this in a in a very improvisational way. I'm just choosing photographs and pages. It was the boomtown and Kinzie came along. It was a guy named Kinzie. Well, John Kinzie has always been by a certain segment of the population by some historians has been called the first settler in Chicago. We would say he was not, of course, it was du Sable, who was a Haitian, who was here long before Kinzie. He left in a hurry. Why, we don't know, somebody ought to do some research into that, and Kinzie became the first perm-- I suppose, first permanent white settler. A very interesting, very interesting man, committed a murder at one point, a very harsh man, a tough guy, kind of a quintessential Chicagoan, Studs, in many ways. I think where we are right now, we're at 500 North Michigan, now when du Sable settled, it was just a block away from here, wasn't it? Just a block away, just south of here. And where it's at, on, near the bridge on Wacker and Michigan. Right. So we're a block away, as we're talking now. Well, you know you and I walked down Michigan Avenue a lot and have seen, get, gotten that sense of history. You always do around that area because that's where it all, that's really where it all started. A lot has been done, as you know, to the river over the years. But but that's really where it started. It gives you a sense of time and place, I think, this in the book learning about the early settlers and the Indians and the Kinzies and the Beaubiens and I think it's easier to identify with place. You can see Chicago, and you can see people, and you can see buildings, but telling telling of the Indians here it gives you, it gives you more than a sense of time, a sense of place and a sense of being. I think about 'boom,' the word 'boom,' you know, the phrase used by de La Salle, "I act. I do, I push." So basically he says -- Pushers. Chicago's always had -- There are different kind of pushers, of course; boomers and boosters, they used to call them over the years in the '30s, 1830s, and you know that that Chicago spirit that the City Hall press agents are always talking about is a very, very true one. But this is entrepreneurial. Well, you remember, you know, Nelson in "City on the Make," he had it, the subtitle was right and that can be both complimentary and a derogatory term. The fact is these guys were up and they did take the Indians, the Pottawattamies. Oh, God, yes. It's funny, the streets -- Rick, you got Kinzie, you got Ogden, streets are named Kinzie, Ogden, we don't have any streets named after artists, do we? No, of course not. There's going to be a Terkel Boulevard if I have anything to say about So we come to, we come to the early and the roughness of the town, visitors. In your book throughout you have various -- It goes in a sort of chronological order, doesn't it? In general, chronological, from beginnings all the way to today, but the visitors who came were always stunned. Yes and no, weren't they? Yes and no. Some of them went away, you know, Sarah Bernhardt thought this was, you know, a jewel of a place, and there were some others that had others opinion, other opinions. Fredrika Bremer, who was from Sweden, had some terrible things to say about about Chicago when she was here And Oh, of course, Oscar Wilde, yeah. Wilde said something, didn't he, about the, about the the Water Tower. Water Tower. A tesselated monstrosity. Tesselated monstrosity. And then of course, the fear of Chicago, and the wildness and sin, William Stead, "If Christ Came to Chicago." Oh, William Stead was a marvelous man in Chicago. That book, "If Christ Came to Chicago," I read it from cover to cover several times and what has always impressed me about "If Christ Came to Chicago" was its, it was written right after the World's Columbian Exposition, was its contemporary quality. You know, Stead in his book published a list of famous blacklist, in the back of the book, and he showed that a lot of the people who were inveighing, as they said, the editorial writers used to say, against sin and crime and corruption and the levee, which was the center of all that, were people who owned a great deal of the property there. And that hasn't changed a hell of a lot. So when two of your heroes, "Lords of the Levee," Bathhouse John Coughlin and Hinky Dink, had First Ward balls, it was attended by the respectable society, wasn't Oh, sure. As well as, as well as the disrespectables of society. It was just prostitutes and and all sorts of panderers mixed with with, you know, the cream of society. Now, Rick, as I'm thinking, Herman, the line of demarcation was always a very thin one here, wasn't it? It always has been. It's part of its problem, part of its charm. But always been that, a line between the resp-- And [line of fusion?] we come -- Of course, you can't talk about early Chicago, and Herman, you've written about this, too, in your book "Give the Lady What She Wants." Chicago and one of the key -- in the building new department stores. Oh, yeah, and of course, Marshall Field -- For Potter Palmer was one of the first innovators, an innovator in the whole field of merchandising 'way back in the '50s. He is the man who started the store that later became Marshall Field and Company. In 1852 he started that on Lake Street. Marshall Field and Levi Leiter worked for him as clerks and eventually he went on to other things like owning practically all of State Street, most of Lake Shore Drive. Since we're talking about buildings, on page 28 of the book of Herman and Rick Kogan's book, "Yesterday's Chicago," is the first, is "The Wigwam." You know, we're now, this program is taking place during the presidential campaign of 1976, but it was somewhat different in 1860. And it was in Chicago, wasn't it, "The Wigwam"? Why don't you sort of set the scene for this, Herman or Rick, together? Well, this was where the, you know, Chicago's first national political convention was held in "The Wigwam," which was a building that was put up very hastily in 1860 to house the Republican convention in which a fellow named Abraham Lincoln was nominated. But why did they -- I suppose it's natural that Chicago was a new party, a new kind of person. But why was Chicago chosen? By this time, was pretty well -- Well, 1860 was a very, it was, you know, it was rapidly becoming, as they say, a metropolis. There was a poet at the time, Will Carleton, who called it, you know, "The Queen of the North and the West," "The rich and voluptuous city, the beauty-thronged mansion-decked." How about that? If Jack Riley ever saw that, he'd steal it and use it again. "Gem of the" -- Wasn't there a phrase used, "gem of the prairie"? Well, "Gem of the Prairie," of course, was the name of a newspaper that used to narrate the doings and the events on the levee. The actual name of the newspaper. Oh, the levee was the, where -- The vice districts. The sporting houses were. And that was the gem of the prairie. The reason for the, I guess the reason, by 1860 Chicago's, you know, location has always been one of its obviously obvious prime assets. It simply was an easy place to come to for all the people to come, and there were still, there were also the boomers and boosters who kept urging people to come here. Booster Yeah, Deacon Bross. Deacon Bross. So we come to a certain song very popular then at the convention. Here's [content It's It [content That Sounds Your Yes, We Some I Revolution, They Oh They They And [content

Herman Kogan As a matter of fact, one of the people involved in the famous Camp Douglas plot was a former mayor of Chicago, a man named Buckner Morris. And you see, what Chicago was in the, even during the Civil War there were a lot of copperheads and a lot of Confederate sympathizers in this town. And the plot would make a great book some time,

Studs Terkel

My guests this morning, a father and son, and it was inevitable there'd be this collaboration between Herman Kogan and his son Rick. Herman, you know, has with so many years, has been one of the really fine journalists of our city of the Midwest. He has been for so many years Book Editor of "Sun-Times" and drama critic and investigative reporter and through the years, too, he in collaboration to some extent had a number of books with Lloyd Wendt, have written these chronicles of Chicago, "Lords of the Levee," and and the one about the, oh, "Bet a Million Gates," and a [variety?]. And now, something that Claudia Cassidy calls an album, you might say a city album, rather than a family album, called "Yesterday's Chicago" that he and his son Rick have put together, Seemann are the publishers. And there are all sorts of photographs, some of which you may have seen, some which you haven't. But it isn't that, it's sort of a, almost a recollection of a time before us, and yet, part of us who live here most of our lives and so, very endearing album is what it really is. And so Herman and Rick Kogan, my guests, after this message, and the name of the book is "Yesterday's Chicago," part of a series involving yesterday and yet it's about Chicago today, too, and how it came to be, might be subtitled as "Roots." Wish I'd thought of that. The program in a moment after this message. [content removed, see catalog Oh, that's Win singing, Herman, that's probably one of the first chamber of commerce song about Chicago way back. And so this in a way is what your book is about, it goes way back to the beginnings, doesn't it? That goes even before the city was a city, before it was a village. Obviously nobody's around except me, except I, to know what it was like in the late 17th century, but that's what it is. It's -- A small percentage of the book is devoted to the very early days, very early years. What we try to do because the idea of the book is such that to have enough yesterdays so that people still alive, as you said earlier, can remember, reflect or at least if they weren't there, what their parents may have told them about. Some of the early prints, so the early prints are here in it, too, involving de La Salle, he spoke that this will be a seat of commerce, just as the song says, "A typical man who will grow up here must be an enterprising man. Each day as he rise, exclaim, 'I act, I move, I push.'" Rick, how did you and Herman come to do it, yourself, from 'way back, of course, thanks to your parents and the knowledge of the city and interest. You've had this curiosity, I Oh, sure, I grew up, of course, in the 43rd Ward and would sit at Paddy Bauler's knee and would hear stories from Paddy Bauler which were stories of a sort of more raucous nature than I heard at home. But, you know, I'd hear my father say, "When you get older, you'll have to read this book, about "Bet a Million Gates," and you'll have to read this book that Lloyd Wendt and I wrote about Hinky Dink Kenna and Bathhouse John." Hinky Dink and Bathhouse John, of course. Other kids hearing Mother Goose stories, I'm hearing Bathhouse John stories, and finally I was old enough to read the book and sort of continued. I was fascinated with the history of Chicago even when I was a kid. And so the gathering of the photographs and of course, the writings, the photographs are of all varieties beginning early prints, aren't they. What do you think of this theory, because the book deals with that, the beginnings, there's an Englishman named Eric Hobsbawm, an English historian, Chicago was the city of technology, that is, the city came out of steel, was Chicago. True, very true. It does explain, of course, the architecture too, that came -- Let's sort of do this in a in a very improvisational way. I'm just choosing photographs and pages. It was the boomtown and Kinzie came along. It was a guy named Kinzie. Well, John Kinzie has always been by a certain segment of the population by some historians has been called the first settler in Chicago. We would say he was not, of course, it was du Sable, who was a Haitian, who was here long before Kinzie. He left in a hurry. Why, we don't know, somebody ought to do some research into that, and Kinzie became the first perm-- I suppose, first permanent white settler. A very interesting, very interesting man, committed a murder at one point, a very harsh man, a tough guy, kind of a quintessential Chicagoan, Studs, in many ways. I think where we are right now, we're at 500 North Michigan, now when du Sable settled, it was just a block away from here, wasn't it? Just a block away, just south of here. And where it's at, on, near the bridge on Wacker and Michigan. Right. So we're a block away, as we're talking now. Well, you know you and I walked down Michigan Avenue a lot and have seen, get, gotten that sense of history. You always do around that area because that's where it all, that's really where it all started. A lot has been done, as you know, to the river over the years. But but that's really where it started. It gives you a sense of time and place, I think, this in the book learning about the early settlers and the Indians and the Kinzies and the Beaubiens and I think it's easier to identify with place. You can see Chicago, and you can see people, and you can see buildings, but telling telling of the Indians here it gives you, it gives you more than a sense of time, a sense of place and a sense of being. I think about 'boom,' the word 'boom,' you know, the phrase used by de La Salle, "I act. I do, I push." So basically he says -- Pushers. Chicago's always had -- There are different kind of pushers, of course; boomers and boosters, they used to call them over the years in the '30s, 1830s, and you know that that Chicago spirit that the City Hall press agents are always talking about is a very, very true one. But this is entrepreneurial. Well, you remember, you know, Nelson in "City on the Make," he had it, the subtitle was right and that can be both complimentary and a derogatory term. The fact is these guys were up and they did take the Indians, the Pottawattamies. Oh, God, yes. It's funny, the streets -- Rick, you got Kinzie, you got Ogden, streets are named Kinzie, Ogden, we don't have any streets named after artists, do we? No, of course not. There's going to be a Terkel Boulevard if I have anything to say about So we come to, we come to the early and the roughness of the town, visitors. In your book throughout you have various -- It goes in a sort of chronological order, doesn't it? In general, chronological, from beginnings all the way to today, but the visitors who came were always stunned. Yes and no, weren't they? Yes and no. Some of them went away, you know, Sarah Bernhardt thought this was, you know, a jewel of a place, and there were some others that had others opinion, other opinions. Fredrika Bremer, who was from Sweden, had some terrible things to say about about Chicago when she was here And Oh, of course, Oscar Wilde, yeah. Wilde said something, didn't he, about the, about the the Water Tower. Water Tower. A tesselated monstrosity. Tesselated monstrosity. And then of course, the fear of Chicago, and the wildness and sin, William Stead, "If Christ Came to Chicago." Oh, William Stead was a marvelous man in Chicago. That book, "If Christ Came to Chicago," I read it from cover to cover several times and what has always impressed me about "If Christ Came to Chicago" was its, it was written right after the World's Columbian Exposition, was its contemporary quality. You know, Stead in his book published a list of famous blacklist, in the back of the book, and he showed that a lot of the people who were inveighing, as they said, the editorial writers used to say, against sin and crime and corruption and the levee, which was the center of all that, were people who owned a great deal of the property there. And that hasn't changed a hell of a lot. So when two of your heroes, "Lords of the Levee," Bathhouse John Coughlin and Hinky Dink, had First Ward balls, it was attended by the respectable society, wasn't Oh, sure. As well as, as well as the disrespectables of society. It was just prostitutes and and all sorts of panderers mixed with with, you know, the cream of society. Now, Rick, as I'm thinking, Herman, the line of demarcation was always a very thin one here, wasn't it? It always has been. It's part of its problem, part of its charm. But always been that, a line between the resp-- And [line of fusion?] we come -- Of course, you can't talk about early Chicago, and Herman, you've written about this, too, in your book "Give the Lady What She Wants." Chicago and one of the key -- in the building new department stores. Oh, yeah, and of course, Marshall Field -- For Potter Palmer was one of the first innovators, an innovator in the whole field of merchandising 'way back in the '50s. He is the man who started the store that later became Marshall Field and Company. In 1852 he started that on Lake Street. Marshall Field and Levi Leiter worked for him as clerks and eventually he went on to other things like owning practically all of State Street, most of Lake Shore Drive. Since we're talking about buildings, on page 28 of the book of Herman and Rick Kogan's book, "Yesterday's Chicago," is the first, is "The Wigwam." You know, we're now, this program is taking place during the presidential campaign of 1976, but it was somewhat different in 1860. And it was in Chicago, wasn't it, "The Wigwam"? Why don't you sort of set the scene for this, Herman or Rick, together? Well, this was where the, you know, Chicago's first national political convention was held in "The Wigwam," which was a building that was put up very hastily in 1860 to house the Republican convention in which a fellow named Abraham Lincoln was nominated. But why did they -- I suppose it's natural that Chicago was a new party, a new kind of person. But why was Chicago chosen? By this time, was pretty well -- Well, 1860 was a very, it was, you know, it was rapidly becoming, as they say, a metropolis. There was a poet at the time, Will Carleton, who called it, you know, "The Queen of the North and the West," "The rich and voluptuous city, the beauty-thronged mansion-decked." How about that? If Jack Riley ever saw that, he'd steal it and use it again. "Gem of the" -- Wasn't there a phrase used, "gem of the prairie"? Well, "Gem of the Prairie," of course, was the name of a newspaper that used to narrate the doings and the events on the levee. The actual name of the newspaper. Oh, the levee was the, where -- The vice districts. The sporting houses were. And that was the gem of the prairie. The reason for the, I guess the reason, by 1860 Chicago's, you know, location has always been one of its obviously obvious prime assets. It simply was an easy place to come to for all the people to come, and there were still, there were also the boomers and boosters who kept urging people to come here. Booster Yeah, Deacon Bross. Deacon Bross. So we come to a certain song very popular then at the convention. Here's [content It's It As a matter of fact, one of the people involved in the famous Camp Douglas plot was a former mayor of Chicago, a man named Buckner Morris. And you see, what Chicago was in the, even during the Civil War there were a lot of copperheads and a lot of Confederate sympathizers in this town. And the plot would make a great book some time, one I [content That Sounds Your Yes, We Some I Revolution, They Oh They They And [content

Studs Terkel Chicago. Everything. The fire. Now, everything was growing so fast. Now we come to the '70s, early '70s.

Herman Kogan Well, Chicago was growing too fast. That man, those quotes from Will Carleton the poet, that was written about a month or two before the fire in October 1871 hit the town. Everybody I'm sure knows about the fire. It was a devastating thing, not as devastating as other famous, as they say, famous fires all over the world.

Studs Terkel There was one at that time up in Wisconsin. Peshtigo.

Herman Kogan Peshtigo. The Peshtigo. Devastating thing. But Chicago was such a well-known city. We were asked, Bob Cromie and I did a book on the fire back in '71 and we were asked why there was so much attention paid to that fire. Well, Chicago was a very highly-publicized city at the time and of course, there was -- Nobody ever heard of the Peshtigo, and so -- Although many more people lost

Studs Terkel I mean your book with Bob, though, as I recall, you were saying though, many fires broke out before the big one. Now weren't there warnings, not -- So it wouldn't -- Weren't there many, wasn't there negligence here too, on the part of authorities?

Herman Kogan Yeah, that's also a kind of a Chicago trait.

Studs Terkel Sure, yeah.

Rick Kogan You think only of growing and you don't -- I know it happens it happens in a lot of other ways. The Iroquois Theater fire was another example of just, you know, let's let's build a marvelous theater and, you know, forget, you know, you start cutting corners and when you're when you're moving very fast, as Chicago was at the time, you not only cut corners, you forget all about the corners and just and just go straight ahead.

Herman Kogan You know, every -- Probably every single building ordinance was violated in the pre-fire months. Even there was an ordinance that you couldn't store hay in a barn in the so-called rural district where the O'Leary's lived. Even that was, and nobody, nobody did anything about it.

Studs Terkel Since you mention O'Leary and the cow and the legend, half true, half-no, something else is here. This is interesting, you point this out and I look at the photographs here. She was Irish. The anti-Irish feeling, these outsiders, these [storing coal?] in the bathtub stereotype.

Herman Kogan Yeah, there was anti-Irish, anti-Catholic feeling, especially during the Civil War. You know, the Trib-- The various newspapers were always writing editorials about how the city is at the mercy of the criminal classes, well, that was a euphemism at that time for the Irish. Later on, you know, the euphemism crime in the streets was the black, what was happening

Studs Terkel There was talk of crime on the streets then, wasn't there?

Herman Kogan Oh, sure, sure. There are -- You know, you come across, when you do research into Chicago, there's nothing new. You found it, Nelson's found it, Rick and I found it, lines in editorials that could be applied 50 years later, 75 years later.

Studs Terkel Of course. Do we learn from history, that's a big question. On page 32 there's this artist's version of how the fire began, the cow and the old woman and the lantern and the hay. And then Mrs. O'Leary, here's the part, I think, told an insurance investigator the next morning write the Kogans, but subsequently changed it several times, obviously fearful that anti-Irish mobs might descend in vengeance on the neighborhood and other contemporary depictions show Mrs. O'Leary as a witch, a harridan, a drunken slattern. Again, we have history repeating itself in stereotype and hysteria. So one of the aspects Chicago is the comeback, the post-fire Chicago.

Herman Kogan Yeah, that's a trait, of course, of Chicago, you know, the disaster and recovery, incredible rapid recovery and that again is a characteristic of the city all through its, all through its history.

Rick Kogan It's a marvelous period, the period from 1871 to 1893, the city bouncing back like, well, the term 'Windy City' was was originated by newspapers in the east describing Chicago because it was so boastful, claiming that they could -- That this upstart city that was leveled 20 years ago could put on the World's Columbian Exposition, although it is maybe windy here, that's that's the reason is Chicago's boastful nature during those years. And those were the years of the great architecture, the great building, the Auditorium Theatre. It was a -- I've used this analogy before, it was like the people here and people who came here in those, in those 22 years had a had an empty canvas to work with. And anything went. It was a marvelous time, I think if any time in Chicago I'd like to have been around, it would have been those years because the chance for participation rather than just, you know, reading about the St. Valentine's Day Massacre and going down to see it at the garage, you know, the blood, you could you could be a participant in those years.

Studs Terkel This is the point now, we come to the architecture, too. So William Le Baron Jenney and the new and the new

Herman Kogan Home Insurance Building. Skyscraper. Home of the first skyscraper.

Studs Terkel And of course, Louis Sullivan.

Herman Kogan Ah, Louis Sullivan. You know, there have been a number of books about Louis Sullivan and still I think the the book needs to be written, maybe not by an architect but maybe by a good novelist. I'd like to see, I'd like to see a man like Norman Mailer get into the subject of Louis Sullivan and do a fictive or nonfiction fictive biography of Louis Sullivan. He ended, as you know, very tragically. But one of the one of the Chicago geniuses, no doubt about it.

Studs Terkel Here on 52 of course, there's the Auditorium that he did with the acoustical genius Dankmar Adler. Here's the description of it, too, the devout believer Louis Sullivan and modernism and the artist's democratic traditions. By the way, Win Stracke, who sang a number of times in the old Auditorium, he was in the chorus of "The Miracle," he said he described as he saw it from the stage, he says, "It was the most, one of the most democratically-built theaters in the world." That is, it was built, Sullivan's credo was that everybody, there were no special vantage points.

Rick Kogan Right. There is, you know, even today with the rebuilt Auditorium, you notice that very easily. You know, not only the acoustics are great, but there are no barriers to the eye. No, no, nothing.

Studs Terkel And so that night as described when it opened. Opening night, December 9th, 1889, 5000 Chicagoans heard "Home Sweet Home," sung by Adelina Patti, and who was -- Benjamin Harrison. the president. Suppose we -- Well, here's the moment. You know, Andy Carr, he's got every record in the world, and this is Adelina Patti, a 1905 recording of the song she sang on December 9th, 1889 at the Auditorium Theatre

Studs Terkel

Herman Kogan

Studs Terkel

Herman Kogan

Studs Terkel

Herman Kogan

Studs Terkel

Herman Kogan

Studs Terkel

Herman Kogan My guests this morning, a father and son, and it was inevitable there'd be this collaboration between Herman Kogan and his son Rick. Herman, you know, has with so many years, has been one of the really fine journalists of our city of the Midwest. He has been for so many years Book Editor of "Sun-Times" and drama critic and investigative reporter and through the years, too, he in collaboration to some extent had a number of books with Lloyd Wendt, have written these chronicles of Chicago, "Lords of the Levee," and and the one about the, oh, "Bet a Million Gates," and a [variety?]. And now, something that Claudia Cassidy calls an album, you might say a city album, rather than a family album, called "Yesterday's Chicago" that he and his son Rick have put together, Seemann are the publishers. And there are all sorts of photographs, some of which you may have seen, some which you haven't. But it isn't that, it's sort of a, almost a recollection of a time before us, and yet, part of us who live here most of our lives and so, very endearing album is what it really is. And so Herman and Rick Kogan, my guests, after this message, and the name of the book is "Yesterday's Chicago," part of a series involving yesterday and yet it's about Chicago today, too, and how it came to be, might be subtitled as "Roots." Wish I'd thought of that. The program in a moment after this message. [content removed, see catalog Oh, that's Win singing, Herman, that's probably one of the first chamber of commerce song about Chicago way back. And so this in a way is what your book is about, it goes way back to the beginnings, doesn't it? That goes even before the city was a city, before it was a village. Obviously nobody's around except me, except I, to know what it was like in the late 17th century, but that's what it is. It's -- A small percentage of the book is devoted to the very early days, very early years. What we try to do because the idea of the book is such that to have enough yesterdays so that people still alive, as you said earlier, can remember, reflect or at least if they weren't there, what their parents may have told them about. Some of the early prints, so the early prints are here in it, too, involving de La Salle, he spoke that this will be a seat of commerce, just as the song says, "A typical man who will grow up here must be an enterprising man. Each day as he rise, exclaim, 'I act, I move, I push.'" Rick, how did you and Herman come to do it, yourself, from 'way back, of course, thanks to your parents and the knowledge of the city and interest. You've had this curiosity, I Oh, sure, I grew up, of course, in the 43rd Ward and would sit at Paddy Bauler's knee and would hear stories from Paddy Bauler which were stories of a sort of more raucous nature than I heard at home. But, you know, I'd hear my father say, "When you get older, you'll have to read this book, about "Bet a Million Gates," and you'll have to read this book that Lloyd Wendt and I wrote about Hinky Dink Kenna and Bathhouse John." Hinky Dink and Bathhouse John, of course. Other kids hearing Mother Goose stories, I'm hearing Bathhouse John stories, and finally I was old enough to read the book and sort of continued. I was fascinated with the history of Chicago even when I was a kid. And so the gathering of the photographs and of course, the writings, the photographs are of all varieties beginning early prints, aren't they. What do you think of this theory, because the book deals with that, the beginnings, there's an Englishman named Eric Hobsbawm, an English historian, Chicago was the city of technology, that is, the city came out of steel, was Chicago. True, very true. It does explain, of course, the architecture too, that came -- Let's sort of do this in a in a very improvisational way. I'm just choosing photographs and pages. It was the boomtown and Kinzie came along. It was a guy named Kinzie. Well, John Kinzie has always been by a certain segment of the population by some historians has been called the first settler in Chicago. We would say he was not, of course, it was du Sable, who was a Haitian, who was here long before Kinzie. He left in a hurry. Why, we don't know, somebody ought to do some research into that, and Kinzie became the first perm-- I suppose, first permanent white settler. A very interesting, very interesting man, committed a murder at one point, a very harsh man, a tough guy, kind of a quintessential Chicagoan, Studs, in many ways. I think where we are right now, we're at 500 North Michigan, now when du Sable settled, it was just a block away from here, wasn't it? Just a block away, just south of here. And where it's at, on, near the bridge on Wacker and Michigan. Right. So we're a block away, as we're talking now. Well, you know you and I walked down Michigan Avenue a lot and have seen, get, gotten that sense of history. You always do around that area because that's where it all, that's really where it all started. A lot has been done, as you know, to the river over the years. But but that's really where it started. It gives you a sense of time and place, I think, this in the book learning about the early settlers and the Indians and the Kinzies and the Beaubiens and I think it's easier to identify with place. You can see Chicago, and you can see people, and you can see buildings, but telling telling of the Indians here it gives you, it gives you more than a sense of time, a sense of place and a sense of being. I think about 'boom,' the word 'boom,' you know, the phrase used by de La Salle, "I act. I do, I push." So basically he says -- Pushers. Chicago's always had -- There are different kind of pushers, of course; boomers and boosters, they used to call them over the years in the '30s, 1830s, and you know that that Chicago spirit that the City Hall press agents are always talking about is a very, very true one. But this is entrepreneurial. Well, you remember, you know, Nelson in "City on the Make," he had it, the subtitle was right and that can be both complimentary and a derogatory term. The fact is these guys were up and they did take the Indians, the Pottawattamies. Oh, God, yes. It's funny, the streets -- Rick, you got Kinzie, you got Ogden, streets are named Kinzie, Ogden, we don't have any streets named after artists, do we? No, of course not. There's going to be a Terkel Boulevard if I have anything to say about So we come to, we come to the early and the roughness of the town, visitors. In your book throughout you have various -- It goes in a sort of chronological order, doesn't it? In general, chronological, from beginnings all the way to today, but the visitors who came were always stunned. Yes and no, weren't they? Yes and no. Some of them went away, you know, Sarah Bernhardt thought this was, you know, a jewel of a place, and there were some others that had others opinion, other opinions. Fredrika Bremer, who was from Sweden, had some terrible things to say about about Chicago when she was here And Oh, of course, Oscar Wilde, yeah. Wilde said something, didn't he, about the, about the the Water Tower. Water Tower. A tesselated monstrosity. Tesselated monstrosity. And then of course, the fear of Chicago, and the wildness and sin, William Stead, "If Christ Came to Chicago." Oh, William Stead was a marvelous man in Chicago. That book, "If Christ Came to Chicago," I read it from cover to cover several times and what has always impressed me about "If Christ Came to Chicago" was its, it was written right after the World's Columbian Exposition, was its contemporary quality. You know, Stead in his book published a list of famous blacklist, in the back of the book, and he showed that a lot of the people who were inveighing, as they said, the editorial writers used to say, against sin and crime and corruption and the levee, which was the center of all that, were people who owned a great deal of the property there. And that hasn't changed a hell of a lot. So when two of your heroes, "Lords of the Levee," Bathhouse John Coughlin and Hinky Dink, had First Ward balls, it was attended by the respectable society, wasn't Oh, sure. As well as, as well as the disrespectables of society. It was just prostitutes and and all sorts of panderers mixed with with, you know, the cream of society. Now, Rick, as I'm thinking, Herman, the line of demarcation was always a very thin one here, wasn't it? It always has been. It's part of its problem, part of its charm. But always been that, a line between the resp-- And [line of fusion?] we come -- Of course, you can't talk about early Chicago, and Herman, you've written about this, too, in your book "Give the Lady What She Wants." Chicago and one of the key -- in the building new department stores. Oh, yeah, and of course, Marshall Field -- For Potter Palmer was one of the first innovators, an innovator in the whole field of merchandising 'way back in the '50s. He is the man who started the store that later became Marshall Field and Company. In 1852 he started that on Lake Street. Marshall Field and Levi Leiter worked for him as clerks and eventually he went on to other things like owning practically all of State Street, most of Lake Shore Drive. Since we're talking about buildings, on page 28 of the book of Herman and Rick Kogan's book, "Yesterday's Chicago," is the first, is "The Wigwam." You know, we're now, this program is taking place during the presidential campaign of 1976, but it was somewhat different in 1860. And it was in Chicago, wasn't it, "The Wigwam"? Why don't you sort of set the scene for this, Herman or Rick, together? Well, this was where the, you know, Chicago's first national political convention was held in "The Wigwam," which was a building that was put up very hastily in 1860 to house the Republican convention in which a fellow named Abraham Lincoln was nominated. But why did they -- I suppose it's natural that Chicago was a new party, a new kind of person. But why was Chicago chosen? By this time, was pretty well -- Well, 1860 was a very, it was, you know, it was rapidly becoming, as they say, a metropolis. There was a poet at the time, Will Carleton, who called it, you know, "The Queen of the North and the West," "The rich and voluptuous city, the beauty-thronged mansion-decked." How about that? If Jack Riley ever saw that, he'd steal it and use it again. "Gem of the" -- Wasn't there a phrase used, "gem of the prairie"? Well, "Gem of the Prairie," of course, was the name of a newspaper that used to narrate the doings and the events on the levee. The actual name of the newspaper. Oh, the levee was the, where -- The vice districts. The sporting houses were. And that was the gem of the prairie. The reason for the, I guess the reason, by 1860 Chicago's, you know, location has always been one of its obviously obvious prime assets. It simply was an easy place to come to for all the people to come, and there were still, there were also the boomers and boosters who kept urging people to come here. Booster Yeah, Deacon Bross. Deacon Bross. So we come to a certain song very popular then at the convention. Here's [content It's It As a matter of fact, one of the people involved in the famous Camp Douglas plot was a former mayor of Chicago, a man named Buckner Morris. And you see, what Chicago was in the, even during the Civil War there were a lot of copperheads and a lot of Confederate sympathizers in this town. And the plot would make a great book some time, one I [content Chicago. Everything. The fire. Now, everything was growing so fast. Now we come to the '70s, early '70s. Well, Chicago was growing too fast. That man, those quotes from Will Carleton the poet, that was written about a month or two before the fire in October 1871 hit the town. Everybody I'm sure knows about the fire. It was a devastating thing, not as devastating as other famous, as they say, famous fires all over the world. There was one at that time up in Wisconsin. Peshtigo. The Peshtigo. Devastating thing. But Chicago was such a well-known city. We were asked, Bob Cromie and I did a book on the fire back in '71 and we were asked why there was so much attention paid to that fire. Well, Chicago was a very highly-publicized city at the time and of course, there was -- Nobody ever heard of the Peshtigo, and so -- Although many more people lost their I mean your book with Bob, though, as I recall, you were saying though, many fires broke out before the big one. Now weren't there warnings, not -- So it wouldn't -- Weren't there many, wasn't there negligence here too, on the part of authorities? Yeah, that's also a kind of a Chicago trait. Sure, yeah. You think only of growing and you don't -- I know it happens it happens in a lot of other ways. The Iroquois Theater fire was another example of just, you know, let's let's build a marvelous theater and, you know, forget, you know, you start cutting corners and when you're when you're moving very fast, as Chicago was at the time, you not only cut corners, you forget all about the corners and just and just go straight ahead. You know, every -- Probably every single building ordinance was violated in the pre-fire months. Even there was an ordinance that you couldn't store hay in a barn in the so-called rural district where the O'Leary's lived. Even that was, and nobody, nobody did anything about it. Since you mention O'Leary and the cow and the legend, half true, half-no, something else is here. This is interesting, you point this out and I look at the photographs here. She was Irish. The anti-Irish feeling, these outsiders, these [storing coal?] in the bathtub stereotype. Yeah, there was anti-Irish, anti-Catholic feeling, especially during the Civil War. You know, the Trib-- The various newspapers were always writing editorials about how the city is at the mercy of the criminal classes, well, that was a euphemism at that time for the Irish. Later on, you know, the euphemism crime in the streets was the black, what was happening -- There was talk of crime on the streets then, wasn't there? Oh, sure, sure. There are -- You know, you come across, when you do research into Chicago, there's nothing new. You found it, Nelson's found it, Rick and I found it, lines in editorials that could be applied 50 years later, 75 years later. Of course. Do we learn from history, that's a big question. On page 32 there's this artist's version of how the fire began, the cow and the old woman and the lantern and the hay. And then Mrs. O'Leary, here's the part, I think, told an insurance investigator the next morning write the Kogans, but subsequently changed it several times, obviously fearful that anti-Irish mobs might descend in vengeance on the neighborhood and other contemporary depictions show Mrs. O'Leary as a witch, a harridan, a drunken slattern. Again, we have history repeating itself in stereotype and hysteria. So one of the aspects Chicago is the comeback, the post-fire Chicago. Yeah, that's a trait, of course, of Chicago, you know, the disaster and recovery, incredible rapid recovery and that again is a characteristic of the city all through its, all through its history. It's a marvelous period, the period from 1871 to 1893, the city bouncing back like, well, the term 'Windy City' was was originated by newspapers in the east describing Chicago because it was so boastful, claiming that they could -- That this upstart city that was leveled 20 years ago could put on the World's Columbian Exposition, although it is maybe windy here, that's that's the reason is Chicago's boastful nature during those years. And those were the years of the great architecture, the great building, the Auditorium Theatre. It was a -- I've used this analogy before, it was like the people here and people who came here in those, in those 22 years had a had an empty canvas to work with. And anything went. It was a marvelous time, I think if any time in Chicago I'd like to have been around, it would have been those years because the chance for participation rather than just, you know, reading about the St. Valentine's Day Massacre and going down to see it at the garage, you know, the blood, you could you could be a participant in those years. This is the point now, we come to the architecture, too. So William Le Baron Jenney and the new and the new -- Home Insurance Building. Skyscraper. Home of the first skyscraper. And of course, Louis Sullivan. Ah, Louis Sullivan. You know, there have been a number of books about Louis Sullivan and still I think the the book needs to be written, maybe not by an architect but maybe by a good novelist. I'd like to see, I'd like to see a man like Norman Mailer get into the subject of Louis Sullivan and do a fictive or nonfiction fictive biography of Louis Sullivan. He ended, as you know, very tragically. But one of the one of the Chicago geniuses, no doubt about it. Here on 52 of course, there's the Auditorium that he did with the acoustical genius Dankmar Adler. Here's the description of it, too, the devout believer Louis Sullivan and modernism and the artist's democratic traditions. By the way, Win Stracke, who sang a number of times in the old Auditorium, he was in the chorus of "The Miracle," he said he described as he saw it from the stage, he says, "It was the most, one of the most democratically-built theaters in the world." That is, it was built, Sullivan's credo was that everybody, there were no special vantage points. Right. There is, you know, even today with the rebuilt Auditorium, you notice that very easily. You know, not only the acoustics are great, but there are no barriers to the eye. No, no, nothing. And so that night as described when it opened. Opening night, December 9th, 1889, 5000 Chicagoans heard "Home Sweet Home," sung by Adelina Patti, and who was -- Benjamin Harrison. the president. Suppose we -- Well, here's the moment. You know, Andy Carr, he's got every record in the world, and this is Adelina Patti, a 1905 recording of the song she sang on December 9th, 1889 at the Auditorium Theatre opening. [content That Sounds Your Yes, We Some I Revolution, They Oh They They And [content

Studs Terkel The John Peter Altgeld kind of people, and the 14-hour day,

Herman Kogan

Studs Terkel

Herman Kogan

Studs Terkel

My guests this morning, a father and son, and it was inevitable there'd be this collaboration between Herman Kogan and his son Rick. Herman, you know, has with so many years, has been one of the really fine journalists of our city of the Midwest. He has been for so many years Book Editor of "Sun-Times" and drama critic and investigative reporter and through the years, too, he in collaboration to some extent had a number of books with Lloyd Wendt, have written these chronicles of Chicago, "Lords of the Levee," and and the one about the, oh, "Bet a Million Gates," and a [variety?]. And now, something that Claudia Cassidy calls an album, you might say a city album, rather than a family album, called "Yesterday's Chicago" that he and his son Rick have put together, Seemann are the publishers. And there are all sorts of photographs, some of which you may have seen, some which you haven't. But it isn't that, it's sort of a, almost a recollection of a time before us, and yet, part of us who live here most of our lives and so, very endearing album is what it really is. And so Herman and Rick Kogan, my guests, after this message, and the name of the book is "Yesterday's Chicago," part of a series involving yesterday and yet it's about Chicago today, too, and how it came to be, might be subtitled as "Roots." Wish I'd thought of that. The program in a moment after this message. [content removed, see catalog Oh, that's Win singing, Herman, that's probably one of the first chamber of commerce song about Chicago way back. And so this in a way is what your book is about, it goes way back to the beginnings, doesn't it? That goes even before the city was a city, before it was a village. Obviously nobody's around except me, except I, to know what it was like in the late 17th century, but that's what it is. It's -- A small percentage of the book is devoted to the very early days, very early years. What we try to do because the idea of the book is such that to have enough yesterdays so that people still alive, as you said earlier, can remember, reflect or at least if they weren't there, what their parents may have told them about. Some of the early prints, so the early prints are here in it, too, involving de La Salle, he spoke that this will be a seat of commerce, just as the song says, "A typical man who will grow up here must be an enterprising man. Each day as he rise, exclaim, 'I act, I move, I push.'" Rick, how did you and Herman come to do it, yourself, from 'way back, of course, thanks to your parents and the knowledge of the city and interest. You've had this curiosity, I Oh, sure, I grew up, of course, in the 43rd Ward and would sit at Paddy Bauler's knee and would hear stories from Paddy Bauler which were stories of a sort of more raucous nature than I heard at home. But, you know, I'd hear my father say, "When you get older, you'll have to read this book, about "Bet a Million Gates," and you'll have to read this book that Lloyd Wendt and I wrote about Hinky Dink Kenna and Bathhouse John." Hinky Dink and Bathhouse John, of course. Other kids hearing Mother Goose stories, I'm hearing Bathhouse John stories, and finally I was old enough to read the book and sort of continued. I was fascinated with the history of Chicago even when I was a kid. And so the gathering of the photographs and of course, the writings, the photographs are of all varieties beginning early prints, aren't they. What do you think of this theory, because the book deals with that, the beginnings, there's an Englishman named Eric Hobsbawm, an English historian, Chicago was the city of technology, that is, the city came out of steel, was Chicago. True, very true. It does explain, of course, the architecture too, that came -- Let's sort of do this in a in a very improvisational way. I'm just choosing photographs and pages. It was the boomtown and Kinzie came along. It was a guy named Kinzie. Well, John Kinzie has always been by a certain segment of the population by some historians has been called the first settler in Chicago. We would say he was not, of course, it was du Sable, who was a Haitian, who was here long before Kinzie. He left in a hurry. Why, we don't know, somebody ought to do some research into that, and Kinzie became the first perm-- I suppose, first permanent white settler. A very interesting, very interesting man, committed a murder at one point, a very harsh man, a tough guy, kind of a quintessential Chicagoan, Studs, in many ways. I think where we are right now, we're at 500 North Michigan, now when du Sable settled, it was just a block away from here, wasn't it? Just a block away, just south of here. And where it's at, on, near the bridge on Wacker and Michigan. Right. So we're a block away, as we're talking now. Well, you know you and I walked down Michigan Avenue a lot and have seen, get, gotten that sense of history. You always do around that area because that's where it all, that's really where it all started. A lot has been done, as you know, to the river over the years. But but that's really where it started. It gives you a sense of time and place, I think, this in the book learning about the early settlers and the Indians and the Kinzies and the Beaubiens and I think it's easier to identify with place. You can see Chicago, and you can see people, and you can see buildings, but telling telling of the Indians here it gives you, it gives you more than a sense of time, a sense of place and a sense of being. I think about 'boom,' the word 'boom,' you know, the phrase used by de La Salle, "I act. I do, I push." So basically he says -- Pushers. Chicago's always had -- There are different kind of pushers, of course; boomers and boosters, they used to call them over the years in the '30s, 1830s, and you know that that Chicago spirit that the City Hall press agents are always talking about is a very, very true one. But this is entrepreneurial. Well, you remember, you know, Nelson in "City on the Make," he had it, the subtitle was right and that can be both complimentary and a derogatory term. The fact is these guys were up and they did take the Indians, the Pottawattamies. Oh, God, yes. It's funny, the streets -- Rick, you got Kinzie, you got Ogden, streets are named Kinzie, Ogden, we don't have any streets named after artists, do we? No, of course not. There's going to be a Terkel Boulevard if I have anything to say about So we come to, we come to the early and the roughness of the town, visitors. In your book throughout you have various -- It goes in a sort of chronological order, doesn't it? In general, chronological, from beginnings all the way to today, but the visitors who came were always stunned. Yes and no, weren't they? Yes and no. Some of them went away, you know, Sarah Bernhardt thought this was, you know, a jewel of a place, and there were some others that had others opinion, other opinions. Fredrika Bremer, who was from Sweden, had some terrible things to say about about Chicago when she was here And Oh, of course, Oscar Wilde, yeah. Wilde said something, didn't he, about the, about the the Water Tower. Water Tower. A tesselated monstrosity. Tesselated monstrosity. And then of course, the fear of Chicago, and the wildness and sin, William Stead, "If Christ Came to Chicago." Oh, William Stead was a marvelous man in Chicago. That book, "If Christ Came to Chicago," I read it from cover to cover several times and what has always impressed me about "If Christ Came to Chicago" was its, it was written right after the World's Columbian Exposition, was its contemporary quality. You know, Stead in his book published a list of famous blacklist, in the back of the book, and he showed that a lot of the people who were inveighing, as they said, the editorial writers used to say, against sin and crime and corruption and the levee, which was the center of all that, were people who owned a great deal of the property there. And that hasn't changed a hell of a lot. So when two of your heroes, "Lords of the Levee," Bathhouse John Coughlin and Hinky Dink, had First Ward balls, it was attended by the respectable society, wasn't Oh, sure. As well as, as well as the disrespectables of society. It was just prostitutes and and all sorts of panderers mixed with with, you know, the cream of society. Now, Rick, as I'm thinking, Herman, the line of demarcation was always a very thin one here, wasn't it? It always has been. It's part of its problem, part of its charm. But always been that, a line between the resp-- And [line of fusion?] we come -- Of course, you can't talk about early Chicago, and Herman, you've written about this, too, in your book "Give the Lady What She Wants." Chicago and one of the key -- in the building new department stores. Oh, yeah, and of course, Marshall Field -- For Potter Palmer was one of the first innovators, an innovator in the whole field of merchandising 'way back in the '50s. He is the man who started the store that later became Marshall Field and Company. In 1852 he started that on Lake Street. Marshall Field and Levi Leiter worked for him as clerks and eventually he went on to other things like owning practically all of State Street, most of Lake Shore Drive. Since we're talking about buildings, on page 28 of the book of Herman and Rick Kogan's book, "Yesterday's Chicago," is the first, is "The Wigwam." You know, we're now, this program is taking place during the presidential campaign of 1976, but it was somewhat different in 1860. And it was in Chicago, wasn't it, "The Wigwam"? Why don't you sort of set the scene for this, Herman or Rick, together? Well, this was where the, you know, Chicago's first national political convention was held in "The Wigwam," which was a building that was put up very hastily in 1860 to house the Republican convention in which a fellow named Abraham Lincoln was nominated. But why did they -- I suppose it's natural that Chicago was a new party, a new kind of person. But why was Chicago chosen? By this time, was pretty well -- Well, 1860 was a very, it was, you know, it was rapidly becoming, as they say, a metropolis. There was a poet at the time, Will Carleton, who called it, you know, "The Queen of the North and the West," "The rich and voluptuous city, the beauty-thronged mansion-decked." How about that? If Jack Riley ever saw that, he'd steal it and use it again. "Gem of the" -- Wasn't there a phrase used, "gem of the prairie"? Well, "Gem of the Prairie," of course, was the name of a newspaper that used to narrate the doings and the events on the levee. The actual name of the newspaper. Oh, the levee was the, where -- The vice districts. The sporting houses were. And that was the gem of the prairie. The reason for the, I guess the reason, by 1860 Chicago's, you know, location has always been one of its obviously obvious prime assets. It simply was an easy place to come to for all the people to come, and there were still, there were also the boomers and boosters who kept urging people to come here. Booster Yeah, Deacon Bross. Deacon Bross. So we come to a certain song very popular then at the convention. Here's [content It's It As a matter of fact, one of the people involved in the famous Camp Douglas plot was a former mayor of Chicago, a man named Buckner Morris. And you see, what Chicago was in the, even during the Civil War there were a lot of copperheads and a lot of Confederate sympathizers in this town. And the plot would make a great book some time, one I [content Chicago. Everything. The fire. Now, everything was growing so fast. Now we come to the '70s, early '70s. Well, Chicago was growing too fast. That man, those quotes from Will Carleton the poet, that was written about a month or two before the fire in October 1871 hit the town. Everybody I'm sure knows about the fire. It was a devastating thing, not as devastating as other famous, as they say, famous fires all over the world. There was one at that time up in Wisconsin. Peshtigo. The Peshtigo. Devastating thing. But Chicago was such a well-known city. We were asked, Bob Cromie and I did a book on the fire back in '71 and we were asked why there was so much attention paid to that fire. Well, Chicago was a very highly-publicized city at the time and of course, there was -- Nobody ever heard of the Peshtigo, and so -- Although many more people lost their I mean your book with Bob, though, as I recall, you were saying though, many fires broke out before the big one. Now weren't there warnings, not -- So it wouldn't -- Weren't there many, wasn't there negligence here too, on the part of authorities? Yeah, that's also a kind of a Chicago trait. Sure, yeah. You think only of growing and you don't -- I know it happens it happens in a lot of other ways. The Iroquois Theater fire was another example of just, you know, let's let's build a marvelous theater and, you know, forget, you know, you start cutting corners and when you're when you're moving very fast, as Chicago was at the time, you not only cut corners, you forget all about the corners and just and just go straight ahead. You know, every -- Probably every single building ordinance was violated in the pre-fire months. Even there was an ordinance that you couldn't store hay in a barn in the so-called rural district where the O'Leary's lived. Even that was, and nobody, nobody did anything about it. Since you mention O'Leary and the cow and the legend, half true, half-no, something else is here. This is interesting, you point this out and I look at the photographs here. She was Irish. The anti-Irish feeling, these outsiders, these [storing coal?] in the bathtub stereotype. Yeah, there was anti-Irish, anti-Catholic feeling, especially during the Civil War. You know, the Trib-- The various newspapers were always writing editorials about how the city is at the mercy of the criminal classes, well, that was a euphemism at that time for the Irish. Later on, you know, the euphemism crime in the streets was the black, what was happening -- There was talk of crime on the streets then, wasn't there? Oh, sure, sure. There are -- You know, you come across, when you do research into Chicago, there's nothing new. You found it, Nelson's found it, Rick and I found it, lines in editorials that could be applied 50 years later, 75 years later. Of course. Do we learn from history, that's a big question. On page 32 there's this artist's version of how the fire began, the cow and the old woman and the lantern and the hay. And then Mrs. O'Leary, here's the part, I think, told an insurance investigator the next morning write the Kogans, but subsequently changed it several times, obviously fearful that anti-Irish mobs might descend in vengeance on the neighborhood and other contemporary depictions show Mrs. O'Leary as a witch, a harridan, a drunken slattern. Again, we have history repeating itself in stereotype and hysteria. So one of the aspects Chicago is the comeback, the post-fire Chicago. Yeah, that's a trait, of course, of Chicago, you know, the disaster and recovery, incredible rapid recovery and that again is a characteristic of the city all through its, all through its history. It's a marvelous period, the period from 1871 to 1893, the city bouncing back like, well, the term 'Windy City' was was originated by newspapers in the east describing Chicago because it was so boastful, claiming that they could -- That this upstart city that was leveled 20 years ago could put on the World's Columbian Exposition, although it is maybe windy here, that's that's the reason is Chicago's boastful nature during those years. And those were the years of the great architecture, the great building, the Auditorium Theatre. It was a -- I've used this analogy before, it was like the people here and people who came here in those, in those 22 years had a had an empty canvas to work with. And anything went. It was a marvelous time, I think if any time in Chicago I'd like to have been around, it would have been those years because the chance for participation rather than just, you know, reading about the St. Valentine's Day Massacre and going down to see it at the garage, you know, the blood, you could you could be a participant in those years. This is the point now, we come to the architecture, too. So William Le Baron Jenney and the new and the new -- Home Insurance Building. Skyscraper. Home of the first skyscraper. And of course, Louis Sullivan. Ah, Louis Sullivan. You know, there have been a number of books about Louis Sullivan and still I think the the book needs to be written, maybe not by an architect but maybe by a good novelist. I'd like to see, I'd like to see a man like Norman Mailer get into the subject of Louis Sullivan and do a fictive or nonfiction fictive biography of Louis Sullivan. He ended, as you know, very tragically. But one of the one of the Chicago geniuses, no doubt about it. Here on 52 of course, there's the Auditorium that he did with the acoustical genius Dankmar Adler. Here's the description of it, too, the devout believer Louis Sullivan and modernism and the artist's democratic traditions. By the way, Win Stracke, who sang a number of times in the old Auditorium, he was in the chorus of "The Miracle," he said he described as he saw it from the stage, he says, "It was the most, one of the most democratically-built theaters in the world." That is, it was built, Sullivan's credo was that everybody, there were no special vantage points. Right. There is, you know, even today with the rebuilt Auditorium, you notice that very easily. You know, not only the acoustics are great, but there are no barriers to the eye. No, no, nothing. And so that night as described when it opened. Opening night, December 9th, 1889, 5000 Chicagoans heard "Home Sweet Home," sung by Adelina Patti, and who was -- Benjamin Harrison. the president. Suppose we -- Well, here's the moment. You know, Andy Carr, he's got every record in the world, and this is Adelina Patti, a 1905 recording of the song she sang on December 9th, 1889 at the Auditorium Theatre opening. [content That Sounds Your Yes, We Some I Revolution, They Oh The John Peter Altgeld kind of people, and the 14-hour day, and The They They And [content

Studs Terkel Eight-hour day. Of course, you also in other pages of the book, we see photographs of, there was the Pullman strike and that's when Gene Debs came into being.

Rick Kogan Yeah, Pullman; depression; and it was Pullman who first built the first the country's first sort of city for his workers. You know, at the at the site of the plant, first sort of industrial city, and during the Depression, his, his -- He refused to cut the cut the prices and cut the rents, the company store, and his workers had no choice but to strike and run in troops and bloody terrible scene. Now I remember, I remember reading of Peter Finley Dunne's [sic] great great columns about

Studs Terkel Mr. Dooley.

Rick Kogan Yeah, Mr. Dooley and the little, the little girl coming up to the, to Mr., to big Mr. Pullman and saying, "Please, sir, we don't have any food," and he would -- He kicked her. That stuck in my memory for a long time.

Studs Terkel The Depression, it was 1894 depression, this was the one with 1894 depression, wasn't it? Yeah. I see this picture here, Herman and Rick, '76 and '77.

Herman Kogan Yeah, there were federal troops and there's the American Railway Union strike, and it was a nationwide strike, it was centered here, of course, it started because Pullman made the, you know, the Pullman cars and in the labor strife any railroads that pulled Pullman cars, the workers went out on strike.

Studs Terkel Marvelous picture, there's one here, this is one of the papers, as Eugene Debs who led the Pullman, the brotherhood of rail-- And they got a crown on his head, and they call him czar. Enraged strikers ripped up the tracks and overturned freight cars, right, Herman and Rick Kogan. And Eugene Debs pictured here by a contemporary editorial cartoonist as a despot paralyzing the nation's traffic was arrested, one of the first times, one of the numerous times arrested. And Darrow was his lawyer, wasn't he, Clarence Darrow?

Herman Kogan Clarence Darrow was a very young lawyer and had been, incidentally, a railroad corporation lawyer, and he as many people do, then and since, more now, just got tired of

Studs Terkel You have a marvelous picture of Clarence Darrow during the Loeb and Leopold case. Marvelous picture of Darrow. And of course, that was 1937 Memorial Day. Steel.

Herman Kogan Yeah, we have the famous, as it's referred to, the famous picture of the policeman having fired. I covered that as a city press reporter. I was standing about, oh, I suppose, a half-mile from it and later covered all the hearings and remember that well, remember the shock, the shock of that particular event.

Studs Terkel You have that, and of course there's so many aspects to Chicago, we have the boosters, the pushers, the entrepreneurs, the laboring men. And you also have a certain other kind of person, Jane Addams, came out of Chicago.

Rick Kogan Another great great friend of the of the Laboring families and the immigrant families. Starting Hull House was sort of, I suppose, at the time was a, you know, radical social experiment to give aid and comfort whatever aid and comfort she was able to give, to the thousands of immigrant families, poor, very poor people coming in and flocking to sort of the Near West Side of Chicago where Hull House originally stood. She's one of my father's old longtime girlfriends.

Herman Kogan Long loves.

Studs Terkel Jane Addams and so she bought -- By the way, since architecture is part of it, the first exposition of Chicago, you have in the Colombian Exposition of '93. And so that

Herman Kogan Well, it was a special event and the architecture there was something incidentally that Louis Sullivan didn't like it all. His building, the transportation building, was called a classic. The European critics liked it, but the rest of it was all as you look back a very elaborate very ornate, very gingerbready, really. And the one big building that survives, of course, was the Palace of Fine Arts, which later became the and it still is, the Museum of Science and Industry.

Studs Terkel That became a big battle. You know, Daniel Burnham, who said, "Make no small plans." As for Louis Sullivan, though.

Herman Kogan Well, the clash there, you see again, that the the times those times, as Rick says, at that period just, I hate to keep using the word 'seethe' but the Sullivan-Burnham conflict is really material, not so much for a historian I think, but for the novelist.

Studs Terkel Oh, yeah, the time, we think of Dreiser writing about Yerkes the tycoon way back then, but now, something about, you're right, these two artists. Particularly one, Sullivan. So how can you talk about Chicago without talking -- Of course, that was during the Exposition there was the World's Fair and Little Egypt

Rick Kogan Oh, Little Egypt, sure, Fahreda Mazar.

Studs Terkel Was that her name?

Rick Kogan Yeah, the thing I enjoy about about her and the interesting thing I learned and in doing this research was that right after the Fair and even during the Fair, men who would go pay their nickel or dime to go in and see her dance would come out saying, "My God, she takes her clothes off, she just has this thin little veil going between," when actually she wore a rather non-revealing costume. And I wonder, I doubt if there's anyone around who actually saw her now and I'd hate to, living with those -- What must be very fond memories of Little Egypt dancing with veils, but untrue.

Studs Terkel Later on we'll hear the voice of someone in the 1933, '34

Herman Kogan Her counterpart.

Studs Terkel Who will come -- Who has her own theory about that. And so how could it be without talking about this -- You got there the Bathhouse John, Hinky Dink, this you have dealt with and that's here, too. We come to the Everleigh sisters!

Herman Kogan Some other old girlfriends of mine. Well, the Everleigh sisters, you know, ran what was probably the most famous brothel in the world from about only only 11 years, 1900 to 1911, when Carter Harrison, in responding to a lot of cries from clergymen and whatnot, but mostly because the Everleigh sisters must've gotten themselves a publicity man and they put a little booklet, which is a very mild booklet, the language is very mild. And he didn't like that and he closed them up.

Studs Terkel Well, somebody, somebody rather eminent died there, isn't that so?

Herman Kogan No, that's not so. You mean Marshall Field the second? No. No. Marshall Field the second, it's been established, committed suicide in his Prairie Avenue home. You know, his son, Marshall Field the third, who started "The Chicago Sun," was 12 years old when it happened. And when Lloyd and I were doing research for "Give the Lady What She Wants," which was the history of Marshall Field and Company, we checked into that very thoroughly, read court records, at the time the verdict was accidental. But all his life, Marshall Field the third was was disturbed by all the rumors and he investigated very thoroughly found that it hadn't been accidental but he was a very, his father was a very unhappy man and he shot himself.

Studs Terkel Nothing to do with the Everleigh sisters.

Herman Kogan No, there was a man, and what happened is that it was a man named Nathaniel Moore, who was a very wealthy young man who was, who died of a heart attack or was shot in the Everleigh Club and they dumped his body elsewhere. Somehow the two, the two stories, part of the Chicago mythology.

Studs Terkel Well, if you think mythology and history, you can't help but think Chicago and characters, and now there's Cap Streeter. Who was old Cap Streeter? Because we have Streeterville, the bus say Streeterville, who was Cap Streeter?

Herman Kogan Well, Cap Streeter, of course, was the man who, you know, had a boat and it ran aground outside in the lake and sand gathered around it and he proclaimed it the District of Lake Michigan, his own, his own little domain. And again a great character and again a man who exemplifies in a way, in a little cruder way, the conflict between the establishment and the non-establishment people. He, he was fought in the courts, out of the courts, the Lake Shore Drive people, the people who had moved there, saw it was going to be very valuable property and they're not about

Studs Terkel They wanted to kick him out.

Herman Kogan They finally kicked him

Studs Terkel You know what's a great irony? I wait for a bus here sometimes, there's always empty buses, and they go on around Streeterville and they turn it around on Ohio and they turn in to Astor and Scott Street, and you know who live around there, and this bus always -- And ironically it's called Streeterville, but it was their ancestors who knocked the hell out of Cap Streeter.

Herman Kogan Oh, absolutely. They sent him to jail, and he did time, and he just died a tragic old man. There again is a character, you know, about whom a book ought to be written.

Studs Terkel You did a book by -- On that subject. I come to page 114, Big Bill, not my friend Big Bill Broonzy, the blues singer, this is Big Bill Thompson. Throw away -- I remember as a kid, "Throw away your hammer and pick up your horn," wasn't that it?

Herman Kogan "Throw away your hammer, get a horn." He was the prime Chicago booster and of course was, we started that book with a line that "Once upon a time, there really was a Big Bill Thompson," and there was a kind of a fairy-tale fable aspect to his whole life. I don't know how Rick feels about him, I think -- I don't know if you feel Big Bill of Chicago

Rick Kogan I think he's flamboyant, there's -- In the book there's one picture during

Studs Terkel He's a crook.

Rick Kogan Oh, sure.

Herman Kogan Sure, sure. These were the years in which Al Capone was the unofficial mayor of Chicago.

Studs Terkel So, let's have our friend -- Oh, before we hear my acquaintance Doc Graham, who worked for Bugs Moran and for Al Capone, describes that time -- We'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact there was a race riot, a big one, in 1919. When some kid was swimming along a beach, a Black kid

Herman Kogan Well, a Black kid was swimming in an area that was supposedly reserved for, was reserved for, white kids and stones were thrown. There was a lot of tension even before that. And the result was, we know, rather disastrous. Carl Sandburg wrote a little book that time, you know, about the race riot. Willard Motley, our old friend, used to tell a story, remember, about how he and his family lived in a white area and when invading mobs from the Near West Side, Irish mobs, mostly came to try to drag them out, why they had their white friends, they were our, our Blacks, so they were almost like a southern mentality, they weren't going to let them touch them. But it was a terrible, was a horrible thing in Chicago, when you look back and read all the detail.

Studs Terkel Again, the question of history, not learning from history and repetition. We come -- So the '20s. Big Bill, he said Al Capone ran the town. Suppose we hear from the horse's mouth. Suppose we hear Doc Graham describe the '20s.

Doc Graham The '20s was a jungle where only the strong survived and the weak fell by the wayside. In Chicago here at the time there the sophisticated [bullies?] that belonged to the Bugs Moran mob or the Al Capone mob, the fellas with talent didn't belong to either one. They turned around and robbed both of them.

Studs Terkel Interesting. So at the time, Chicago in the '20s when all the city -- Double gangs, the Moran group and Capone group, they were independent.

Doc Graham They were extremely independent. The Irish was, the Italians wasn't, they were whipped into line. They merely worked up and so forth. But the Irish were each one an independent operator. You either belonged to one mob or the other mob. Since I'm Irish I had a working affiliation with Bugs Moran's outfit.

Studs Terkel When you say working affiliation, how does that work? How, for example?

Doc Graham In case muscle was needed beyond what I had I called on Moran for help. On the other hand, Moran might use me for help in one of these operations.

Studs Terkel How would this work, Doc, just say, the nature of one operation,

Doc Graham Well, the nature of one operation was, that if you had a load of whiskey hijacked and you knew where it was, we went over and reloaded it on a truck while several surrounded the place with a machine gun or machine guns, sawed-off shotguns, etc., weapons.

Studs Terkel So often sometimes you would have to call upon greater muscle, shall we say, or they would call upon your sense of, your own sense of guerrilla. Oh, yeah, you knew, guerrillas, I don't mean, I mean guerrillas, Castro and Vietnam, in that sense, knowing your terrain and area.

Doc Graham I met Castro, by the way. Yes, I know Castro.

Studs Terkel I want to ask you about that later. I'll ask you about Cuba later. So, in this matter then, were there difficulties encountered at times, you find yourself in ticklish positions?

Doc Graham Many of them, but through the law of survival, you with this fellow liquidated and that fellow disposed of, as an example, Red McLaughlin had the reputation of being the toughest guy in Chicago but when you seen Red brought out of the drainage canal after heisting Capone, you realize that that was unavailing Red's modus operandi.

Studs Terkel And so

Rick Kogan Oh, I wish we'd had Doc.

Studs Terkel Well, Doc was chronicling the event, that Chicago of the '20s and somewhere along [these?] money talked and Al talked very loud and you've got -- The same time you've got the writers. They've got Harriet Monroe in "Poetry" magazine and Dreiser and Norris. All this is happening at the same time, isn't it?

Herman Kogan Well, Dreiser, of course, left before the Capone era, the so-called misnamed, I think, Chicago Renaissance was pretty well over by the time by the middle '20s for a number of reasons. But there again, you had a, you know, revival of the writers in the '30s with Nelson and Jim Farrell later with Willard, Gwendolyn Brooks.

Studs Terkel And you have, of course, Insull. Before the collapse of the pyramid, the Depression. Of course, Chicago in the Depression, you have pictures of Hooverville.

Rick Kogan Oh, it was a very hard-hit town. Not having been around at the time, you know, I know I've heard stories my father saved money for college and all of a sudden his bank closed and he never had any money for college and in the book, in the research for the book, I discovered pictures and incredible squalor and, you know, houses made of of paper and and boards of -- It was very hard-hit during the during the Depression.

Herman Kogan There were parades in the street, as you remember, Studs. Well, I think when Rick's mention of my tuition so long ago, it was three hundred dollars and it was gone in a bean bank. And so we went to Crane College, and then things were so bad they closed Crane College, then we paraded in the street, had committees that went up to see people like Silas Strawn, and the big bankers and he told us, "Why don't you go to work? You don't need to go to college."

Studs Terkel Yeah. It was during this time Silas -- During this time that the World's Fair

Rick Kogan Yeah. It's kind of a remarkable thing.

Herman Kogan The thing about Chicago, that sort of resiliency, here's the Depression, it's terrible and you decide to hold a World's Fair; wrong date, because 1933 was as you know 40, it was -- The city itself was 37 when it became a city, '33 was incorporated as a village in 1833. But they had a very daring thing to do. They got a lot of support. It had been planned for three or four years, of course, before the Depression really hit hard and, you know, the '33 was so successful financially that it was the only fair of this kind in the history of fairs that made a profit and then it was held again in '34 and made another profit, which was very remarkable.

Studs Terkel But one of the observers of this and participants, the most celebrated was Sally Rand.

Herman Kogan Sally Rand, of whom we have a remarkable picture in this book, I might say.

Studs Terkel Page 151 is a picture of Sally Rand, and

Rick Kogan Ought to be framed by everybody who buys the

Studs Terkel And there's Sally, and now she seems to be in her all-together.

Rick Kogan Yes, she's in her all-together.

Studs Terkel But she has a theory about this, see. Suppose we hear Sally. This is -- You hear an organ in the background, this was a number of years ago. I met her. She was working at Mangham's Chateau and there was an organ playing soft music in the background, which was very appropriate, and Sally's talking about how the

Rick Kogan She's some talker.

Studs Terkel How the fan dance came to be.

Sally Rand I was a fine dancer, but I, you know, I wasn't ready yet to create. So necessity being the mother of invention, I was standing in [Mae Vel Shearer's?] little old costume shop, and I picked up these, a pair of these feather fans that prima donnas used to take the high note with. Now I must tell you that, any time any female, any woman, puts a fan in her hand, she instantly becomes a femme fatale, a coquette. Now I have seen this happen down in the Ozarks at [madness?] revival meetings with ladies in poke bonnets and calico who pick up a palm-leaf fan and instantaneously become, you know, the Queen of Sheba, or at least with a palm-leaf fan, and I'm a girl, if you hadn't noticed, so when I picked up the fan and looked in the mirror I immediately tried my inscrutable smile, you know, the whole thing, but suddenly I saw that what the fans did, floating, was exactly what I wanted white birds in the moonlight to look like. So I start rehearsing with these, [Mae Vel?] loaned them to me and told me -- Went over and [clouded?] two of the Chez Paree's best blue spotlights and brought them over and put them up. [Unintelligible] the music rehearsed, the lights up, everything. There I stood. I had intended to take my only chiffon nightgown and make a classical Grecian tunic of it. I didn't get home to the hotel. I didn't -- I was standing on the foot of the steps ready to tell the piano player "For goodness' sake, push the button when I'm announced." And I was announced. So I stood on the threshold of decision that a pair of slippers and a pair of fans period. Now either I went on or he would have every excuse, you know, not to use me, I just didn't go on. So I rationalized, I stood there on the bottom of the steps and said, "All righty. Now who's going to know what's behind these fans anyway?" And they didn't. They didn't and that was when I proved that the Rand is quicker than the eye. But further, what was more startling. Nobody was even vaguely interested. They were really waiting for the table singers, you know, of the era. These were folks who went around with a little push-about piano and sang sad songs, our customers cried in their beer. And they were infinitely more interested in this than they were in me, and it was weeks before anybody discovered I wasn't wearing anything, and it was economically sound because I didn't have any money to buy anything.

Studs Terkel She goes on to describe the Depression, later on, how she became the smash at the World's Fair. She makes her own very biting and very perceptive comments socially, too, about who is respectable, who is not. So this is the book we have, "Yesterday's Chicago," covers it, and oh, there's Balbo Street, named after Italo Balbo, Mussolini's air minister who dropped the bombs in Ethiopia. But we call it Balbo Street, and not too inappropriately. This is after your book, the book ends in 1955, in 1968 on the corner of Balbo and 7th, Italo Balbo was alive and well in spirit.

Herman Kogan Rick was a copy boy at the '68 convention for the "Sun-Times."

Rick Kogan I remember I was working evenings, I was young, I think 16 and went outside and I was wearing typical 16-year-old clothes, I was wearing my father's old Marine jacket and a pair of blue jeans and walked outside the first night I was working and saw people getting beaten in the streets, and -- Sight I'll never forget, never -- It's trite, but it changed my life in many ways. Certain of my views stopped at some point and then took a complete reversal.

Studs Terkel You've got to admit there's a touch of poetry in the guys naming our streets. Balbo, Mussolini's air minister and that's where the beatings and clubbings took place. Chicago does that, and so we come to the end of the book. There's Capone's funeral, Sewell Avery being carried out, the stubborn industrialist who defied Roosevelt, that's a famous shot you got. You have your celebrated photographs and those that are little-known, too, ends of course with the mayor and he's observing his domain. And so, since

Herman Kogan Just after the picture of him on a horse when he was campaigning in the stockyards.

Studs Terkel So I thought we should have the voice of him at a certain moment and then end with a song and the voices set the scene. One of the aldermen, Dick Simpson, was challenging the appointment of the son of Tom Keane to the zoning board on the grounds that he's a member of a realty firm, conflict of interest, [aside from?] nepotism perhaps being involved since his father was chairman of the Finance Committee during his pre-incarceration days. And this is considered an affront by His Honor. And so somehow, it wasn't too long after the '68 convention and the word 'students,' the very phrase 'students' drove him a little crazy and so suppose we hear his voice. And then Lurlean Hunter, "Chicago, My Hometown."

Richard J. Daley And I hope that the halls of the great educational institutions will stop being places for agitation and hatred against this government and this society and talk about the young people with their cynical smiles and with their failure and polluted minds that I made this appointment because the man's name was Keane, and he was the son of a famous member of this council. I made this appointment because I know Tommy Keane, the boy that I appointed, since he's been a baby and I know his mother and not Keane was he called on this appointment, but Adeline Keane, one of the greatest women that I know, not only in this city but in any city in the United States. A fine Polish-American woman who raised a fine boy and should that boy be told by his professor or by any faker that he can't hold office because his name is Keane and she's his mother? Where are we going with this kind of a society and where are we going with these kind of educators? They're doing these things to the young people of our country. Let's start telling the truth! That appointment was never made at the request of Alderman Keane! Although a man who's supposed to be the highest of the vocation, a teacher, if you will, dedicated to tell the truth, implies that there were bad ambitious motives behind the appointment and it's wrong, that he's going to tell his children, it's wrong, and students; what kind of truth is that?

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Studs Terkel [Music in background]. And so Chicago. By the way, Mike Royko after that speech by the mayor, said, "She's a fine Polish-American woman", he said, "My mother's a fine Polish-American woman, where's mine?"

Rick Kogan You know, Mike is the one who said our motto should be changed to "Ubi est mea": "Where is mine?"

Studs Terkel Where is mine. So Herman and Rick Kogan, my guests, and a very endearing book, and it's a reflective book, and it's an album, "Yesterday's Chicago," published by Seemann and it's available. What a city.

Herman Kogan Yes, what a city.

Studs Terkel Thank you very much.

Herman Kogan Thank you.