Carl Charnett, Director of Gateway House, and residents ; part 1

Studs Terkel I'm seated in a large room of what was once, I take it, a very elegant mansion on the South Side of Chicago. It still is elegant: the woodwork, the high ceilings. You may hear voices of young people in the background. There are many rooms, I believe, to this rambling house, 4800 South Ellis. It is Gateway House. I find myself deeply moved as I sit here and have watched some of the young people, residents of Gateway House, some of whom just had a gathering, I take it. Talking with Linda, right here, seated across is serving me coffee, and someone else who is also a resident here asked if the guest, meaning myself, wasn't hungry. And your thoughts, Linda. Who are you? Not name. Just give yourself. Who are you?

Linda Once upon a time I guess I wouldn't have been able to answer that question. I'm 21 years old. And I was using drugs approximately five years on and off. I came to Gateway House from Philadelphia when--a reference of a friend.

Studs Terkel You were about 16 then.

Linda Yes. I had started out by taking amphetamines, which were diet pills, because I had a weight problem at the time and I was a very lonely girl and I felt very rejected from people in general. I had a lot of inadequate feelings about myself as a woman and an individual and started using amphetamines and taking 20, up to 20 a day after a period of five years. In the last four months before I came to Gateway House I was shooting methedrine, which is also an amphetamine, only it's more potent and more dangerous. I've been in Gateway House now for a period of three months, and changes have taken place already, such changes as, I began to realize that drugs weren't my problem. They were the symptom of my problem. That I used drugs because I felt [bad? dead?] about myself as a person. And I can always remember fantasizing over things that I wanted to be and wanted to do. And my dreams are starting to come true now, slowly but surely.

Studs Terkel If you can go back, you know, because often people ask "How come? Why?" I'll be talking to Carl Charnett, who is the director of dynamics here of Gateway House. He's worked with Daytop in New York, too, [we'll have more?] with Carl, who's busy right now at the moment. I'm seated--I see most people here are young, going back and forth. They have gatherings. What I sense here--we'll come to--there's sort of a gentleness, a sort of a--a sort of tenderness I seem to sense here at the place.

Linda Well, I guess if you were to come into Gateway House and see two men reaching out for each other, it wouldn't be a strange scene at all, as a matter of fact it happens very frequently here. We treat each other as brother and sister, and we're one big family. Most of us never really had a family life or we wanted to separate ourselves from our families. And here we have an opportunity to have brothers and sisters. I know I myself have a very good feeling about it. It makes me feel good to know that I have people on my side and people that accept me for what I am, not anything more or anything less.

Studs Terkel You yourself when you were 16 and began to take the various drugs that you took, as you say, to escape certain things that were hard for you to face. Is your family--without probing--was your family middle class? How would you describe your family?

Linda Well, I lived in a middle-class Jewish community. I was going to high school at the time and my father owned his own business and my mom worked with him. It started out I went to a diet doctor for weight control pills and that's how it began. I started with one and two a day and wound up to almost 20. I--in the beginning I didn't take them to escape my problems. Near the end I did.

Studs Terkel Did your family, when they discovered this, was it--what was their reaction?

Linda Well, my mother was heartbroken. My father was heartbroken. It caused animosities in the family. My mother kicked me out a few times. My father has just passed away three years ago. And that's when I really started going heavier on the drugs and my mom kicked me out of the house a few times, always taking me back the next day. I think that was the first step to her really giving me responsible concern, because I was pretty frightened out there all by myself even for that one night overnight. I wasn't used to it. And that's another thing I found out when I came into Gateway House, is that I was considered a baby emotionally because I acted off of my feelings and I wasn't able to control them.

Studs Terkel Did you find people who were allies of yours before you came to Gateway House? People who helped you?

Linda You mean my friends were they? I had friends, but I never really expressed my true feelings to my friends. I usually held it within myself and as a result I was basically alone. If I was in a room with a thousand people, I still felt basically alone.

Studs Terkel Many of your friends, at your age then, were they taking drugs, too?

Linda Yes, I--all my friends were near the end. I dropped all my straight friends that weren't taking drugs and started hanging around with dope fiends.

Studs Terkel What's the word you used?

Linda Dope

Studs Terkel fiends. Dope fiends. What made you use that word?

Linda People that take drugs are dope fiends.

Studs Terkel You think you're a fiend?

Linda Not any longer, no. I still have a lot of dope fiend ways about me. I'm still not as honest as I want to be or would like to be. I'm still lazy and would like to take the easy way out of times. I'd still like to act off my feelings.

Studs Terkel I use that word "fiend" as a gag, you know, "He's a fiend," you know, fiend meaning a terrible person, you know.

Linda No, that's not--

Studs Terkel That's why I got a kick--how we use these words, "dope fiend."

Linda There are many people in the street that work from nine to five that are dope fiends. A dope fiend, it doesn't necessarily mean that a person is taking drugs. A dope fiend can be a person that is maybe addicted to watching television all day long as a means of escape.

Studs Terkel As you're talking, you know, there's a certain way you're talking now about discoveries about yourself. This happened here?

Linda Yes. It happened in Gateway House. Through groups. We have three groups a week here, and basically what groups are all about is learning about yourself. Finding out the bad things about yourself, facing them and trying to change them. Also finding out the good things about yourself and working on them to your fullest potential.

Studs Terkel How did you hear about--you were in Philadelphia, we are now in Chicago. How do you hear about Gateway House?

Linda Well, I was in another therapeutic community in Philadelphia for a period of four months. And I have a friend out here in Gateway House and his mom and dad told me about it. And I called up and asked if I could come and I flew out here.

Studs Terkel Speaking I'm sure to other people here and to Carl. Carl Charnett, the director. When you recount your experiences, you flew out here, you still had that lonely feeling when you came here, did you know what to expect?

Linda Well, I knew what to expect as far as the therapeutic community was concerned, yes. Because I had been in a therapeutic community for four months, but the difference is that I knew the people there and they had started to care about me and vice versa. And I guess it was kind of scary coming out here knowing that I didn't have anyone near, any relatives, any real friends except the one friend that I knew from Gateway House.

Studs Terkel And you've been here now three months. What's been your, what's your feeling now?

Linda I know that I'm loved and I know that I love a great many people here. I really feel that there are a lot of my brothers and sisters here. Once again, I say I feel like this is my family.

Studs Terkel Speaking of brothers and sisters and family, do you--are you still in touch with your mother?

Linda Well, I'm--writing home or calling home is a privilege here in Gateway House. And until a person is deserving or until they've been here a certain period of time, we're not permitted to write. But I'm almost sure pretty soon my privileges will come, and I'll be able to write

Studs Terkel home to my mother. Your mother knows you're here.

Linda Yes.

Studs Terkel You have a brother or sisters.

Linda My sisters is 23 years old. She's married.

Studs Terkel She's straight.

Linda Yeah.

Studs Terkel Do you recall her reactions to you when discovered that you were addicted to

Linda drugs? Well, I wasn't addicted to any drug. I was really in the beginning phases of becoming addicted. I wasn't on heroin, I was using methedrine at the time. Yes, she was thoroughly ashamed of me. She wanted very much to help me but really didn't know how, and through using drugs, I really became very far apart from my sister. We sort of have a pretty good closeness now since I've since I'm trying to change my way of living and my patterns.

Studs Terkel You say she was ashamed of you.

Linda She was ashamed of me. As far as you know, society was concerned because I was running wild and she heard about it from her friends. And this caused embarrassment.

Studs Terkel How long did you go--how far did you go in school?

Linda I went up to the 12th grade, but I quit school before graduation. Now that I've been in Gateway House, after I've been here maybe for another three months, I'll be able to start going to school here and finishing my high school education, maybe eventually going on to college.

Studs Terkel Right now we're seated this is the large, I take it this may have been a ballroom once of a very posh family. I'll see you again, Linda. I think Carl is ready for me, so I'll talk there, and people are doing--each one contributes different, like you were serving the coffee here at the time. Everyone does something, is that it? I notice everybody's busy doing something.

Linda Everyone has a certain job function.

Studs Terkel I would say, I said that you [unintelligible] I said, most of you seem so young. See, I must remind you, I'm 57. But there are mostly young people here.

Linda Well, their ages range from 15 to 60. We have a man who's 60 years old, John [Tone?], very active, very straight.

Studs Terkel Very happy to have seen and spoken with you. Maybe we can talk some more, so, going along, you know, just be very informal as, perhaps, we wandering around the Gateway House. Thank you very much.

Linda You're

Studs Terkel welcome. What would you like to do? It's a difficult question to ask. After you feel better and you leave Gateway House.

Linda Well, I--

Carl Charnett Hello, Mr. Terkel, How are you? Carl

Studs Terkel

Carl Charnett

Studs Terkel Charnett. I was just talking with Linda here, I thought we would informally, you know. No, go right ahead. No, go ahead, she almost finished, I was just asking one last question. No, it's okay. I asked Linda--that's Carl Charnett here, the director. I was asking Linda, what idea you have after you feel better and you leave Gateway House, what you think you might like to do.

Linda In all honesty, I really can't answer that question right now because although I've thought about what I'd like to do some day, I'm not quite certain. I guess when I get into second phase or maybe a few months before that, I'll be in a better state to answer that. I know that I've contemplated several times I may be coming back into the house and being a member of staff someday.

Studs Terkel Working on the staff, maybe. Working, helping others.

Linda Right.

Studs Terkel Thank you very much. [pause in recording] When I entered this building, Gateway House on the corner of Ellis and 48th, I could see that once upon a time it was a posh mansion, the nature of the building itself. But even as I entered, it suddenly, the air ch--I'm talking, seated now with Carl Charnett, the director of Gateway House, and as I came in the air was different. I mean, I found--I'm not romanticizing, I found sort of a, mostly young people here, a sort of gentleness in contrast to what I might find in the streets outside. Is that my imagination?

Carl Charnett No, I don't think it is. I think that part of it is due to the fact that Gateway, number one, is even more than a community. It's certainly not a rehabilitation center per se. It's a family, a family of people who have all shown at various times in their life the symptoms of drug addiction and/or drug abuse. And now who are together working towards a better way of life, working towards becoming mature human beings so that the need for drugs or the use of drugs will no longer exist as a byproduct. And they do this as a team of people, as a family of people, all striving for the same goal, and that is of emotional maturity, stability, etc. And there's a great deal of honesty attempted here, there is a great deal of concern attempted here, and I think it's fairly evident to most people who walk into the building and begin speaking with the residents and feel the air that you spoke of.

Studs Terkel Suppose we go back to the beginnings. And I'll ask you about a certain thing I've observed. As I was coming in to see you, you were involved in a discussion with someone who may be living here, staying here. There was a meeting going on there, and I heard applause at the end of it. A lot of people were gathered, young people, Black and white, gathered there and there was a--so that was part of a session of some sort, I take it.

Carl Charnett Yes. A person who uses drugs after a period of sustained use, their whole lifestyle revolves around the procuring of drugs and the maintaining of habit, etc. Once they come into Gateway, there are many ways in which we encourage a person to start using his head, exercise his mind. The daily seminars between one and two take place every day Monday through Friday and most of the residents participate. And various topics are discussed. A person practices speaking in front of an audience and then receives constructive criticism. Philosophical quotations are discussed. Guest lecturers are heard, etc., so the applause you most probably heard I assume was the termination of one of the day seminars.

Studs Terkel Now, the Gateway House itself, yourself, and how this came to be, and what would be--I was going to say, requisites for entering, but how did Gateway House come to be?

Carl Charnett About four years ago, a group of concerned individuals organized an organization called "CURA". Council--CURA, council for the--the initials stood for something, I can't quite remember what they were. Their concern was for the problem of drug abuse that exists in the country today and, of course, there was, concern was directed toward the Chicago area. After a number of years of treating with, of dealing or attempting to deal with the problem on an out-patient surface basis, they found it was rather difficult and they weren't really making much headway. At about the same time, the State of Illinois formed the Narcotics Advisory Council. Illinois--State of Illinois. The council by one way or another saw to it that a certain amount of funds were appropriated for a research program, a multi-modality research program, and they hired a man by the name of Dr. Jerry Jaffe who had a great deal of experience in this field to head up the State of Illinois drug abuse program, which as I said before is a multi-modality program. By that I mean there are a great many approaches towards treatment and rehabilitation of drug abusers and narcotic addicts. There are inpatient programs which, such as Gateway which use as a goal and a philosophy completely changing the lifestyle of an individual, so that the need for drugs will no longer exist as a byproduct of the growing-up process.

Studs Terkel Just as I was talking to you before, you know, I was talking with Linda, who is very young, she is now 21, she was 16 when she began, it's a matter of changing lifestyle. She's implying this is what was happening to her.

Carl Charnett Yes. I'll go into that in a couple of minutes, all right? And there are also, there is also the synthetic narcotic maintenance approach where an addict who is addicted to hard drugs, opiates, is given a substitute medication in hopes that he will no longer have to turn to crime one, to support his habit. As a result he can become a human being who does not detract from society, is not a parasite, and has less of a chance of going to jail, getting into trouble with the law, etc. So there's the methadone maintenance approach. And then there are various durations of methadone maintenance, and then they're experimenting with certain blocking agents, such as Cyclasasine. These are also drugs with which either substitute for the heroin or make the heroin not felt when a person uses it, so that he will no longer after a period of futile efforts at getting high from the heroin, he will give up, etc. So there are a number of different approaches. All these approaches are now being tried underneath the umbrella of the drug abuse agency. All these approaches with the exception of Gateway are directly overseen by the state. Gateway, by virtue of its philosophy, of its unique treatment approach, would be rather difficult to run directly by the state. So Gateway is a nonprofit organization with a nonprofit board chartered by the State of Illinois who contracts with the State of Illinois, the Department of Mental Health through the drug abuse agency, and charges the Department of Mental Health a certain amount per day per person with a certain limit. Unfortunately, our limit this year is $200,000, and at the rate of $8.50 per day this only allows us to have 64 residents. Well, right now we have 86 residents, plus it actually costs about $10.50 a day to support these people. So we have to rely a great deal on community support.

Studs Terkel You say you have, how many, 86 residents right now.

Carl Charnett Between the two facilities. You're in one facility now, this is the Ellis facility. We have another facility further south, about ten minutes from here.

Studs Terkel So there are two buildings.

Carl Charnett Yes.

Studs Terkel And together have about 86.

Carl Charnett Yes.

Studs Terkel But you say the only provision--

Carl Charnett The state only reimburses for a maximum of 64.

Studs Terkel So you have to raise the money for the

Carl Charnett

Studs Terkel extra 22. Yes. The extra 22 or whatever.

Carl Charnett Now, you were speaking before of a lifestyle, a change of lifestyle.

Studs Terkel You mentioned just statistics the, you have the two places here.

Carl Charnett Yes.

Studs Terkel Of Gateway. Then about 40 or so people are here in this building?

Carl Charnett Roughly, yes.

Studs Terkel I wonder if you could wander through it there later. Now then, the philosophy that you were talking about.

Carl Charnett All right. The therapeutic community believes that anyone who uses drugs and abuses themself with the use of drugs. I'm not talking about people who use drugs by doctor's prescription or anything like that, but people who consistently take great risk in using drugs, whether it be LSD, whether it be heroin, whether it be speed, any one of these drugs, a person who takes great risk jeopardizes the people around him, jeopardizes his own future--

Studs Terkel You haven't said marijuana, this would not fall in this category, would it?

Carl Charnett It's a very debatable issue at this point. I can, I think I can speak on that a little bit later. We believe very strongly that any person that takes such great risk to derive a small amount of pleasure is on one level or another emotionally immature. We look at it in very simple terms. His surface behavior is very irresponsible, very irrational, very unconcerned with his future in a constructive way, and we equate this behavior to that of an infant or a child. And, so, when a resident comes in here for all practical purposes we tell him he's a child, an infant, a baby, and his behavior--yeah.

Studs Terkel At this moment a slight interruption as we're talking because, obviously, Carl Charnett receives many calls and many emergency matters, and this continues to be the case. I'll ask you about that in a moment. You were talking about the person who comes here and so the recognition you put forth to him is, his behavior is that of a child, infantile.

Carl Charnett Yes. A child. The reasons for his behavior--we simplify, we oversimplify so a person can begin to grasp it, and the reasons for his behavior are sheer stupidity. After all, the average scene that a drug addict goes through is, he goes out, uses drugs, gets a habit, gets arrested sooner or later, goes to jail, swears he'll never do it again, comes out of jail and does it all over again, and repeats the same cycle over and over and over and over again, knowing full well that there are a great degree of risks involved. And we call this stupidity. Sheer stupidity. It's our philosophy that a person who uses drugs demands immediate gratification. He may be very, very intellectual. He may be very, very academically capable, viscerally, emotionally, by the seat of his pants. He still demands a great deal of gratification. He wants what he wants when he wants it without regard of anyone else. Viscerally, the sun, the moon, the stars, everything revolves around his needs emotionally. Emotionally he feels he should, above all other people, start at the top of the ladder and not at the bottom of the ladder, and he goes through life with this lifestyle. He goes through life reacting to these emotional needs more so than his intellect, and he constantly gets in jackpots, he constantly gets into trouble. What we do here is we teach a person slowly but surely over a prolonged period of time, a year, a year and a half, it pays to act in a mature way. Our theory is, and it's fairly well borne out by some of the older residents and some people I know from Daytop who are graduates--

Studs Terkel I'll ask you in a moment about Daytop.

Carl Charnett Okay.

Studs Terkel Who you are and Synanon and the relationship between them, similarities or like.

Carl Charnett If a person is exposed to an environment which will reinforce his good behavior and reject his bad behavior consistently over and over and over and over again, the person will begin to learn viscerally that good, mature behavior pays off. If a person lives in the kind of a community that has an economy based on his attitudes, his values, and his behavior, slowly but surely he'll begin to experience that the display of a good attitude, the display of good behavior, the display of consistency will pay off. Everything in the Gateway community is on an earning basis. When a person first comes in, he gets the top end of a double bunk bed and the most menial job in the house. As he shows he can handle those simple responsibilities, just the simple responsibility of participating in the community in an adult way, the simple responsibility of mopping the floor with a good attitude, he'll be given more responsibility and more privilege. If he acts out in a destructive or in a self-defeating way, his additional responsibilities are taken away from him and his privileges that he's earned over a period of time are taken away from him. Now, the life through Gateway, through the community, is a very bumpy one, 'cause all of the residents here take three steps forward and two backward, and sometimes two forward and three backward, over and over and over again, but they are constantly, their good behavior, good attitudes are constantly reinforced while their bad ones are constantly disapproved of.

Studs Terkel So it isn't accidental, then, when I came in I sensed this air of, I said gentleness. Well, I'm not--again, this is so. I did sense it--a communal spirit.

Carl Charnett It is a community. It's a family in every sense of the word, right down to a symbolic mother and father image. The older residents, the senior residents, serve as role models for the younger residents. Everyone in this community are ex-drug abusers or ex-addicts, including myself.

Studs Terkel Including yourself?

Carl Charnett Yes. Each and every one of us on our level of growth teach the level below us what we ourselves have learned. The two-month member teaches the one-month member. The eight-month member teaches the four-month member. The year member teaches the eight-month member. The directors teach the year members, and so on and so forth. And as I said before, it's a hierarchy of learning. A progress, so to speak.

Studs Terkel Each one who comes in, you say, is when he comes in, you or someone else, you speak to him, the new person comes in and he is immediately given a responsibility.

Carl Charnett Well, it's not quite as simple as that. Number one, the new person that comes in has to make a certain investment. We're not going to take anyone in. You see, it's very easy for a drug abuser or a person that's leading a very inconsistent lifestyle to pay lip service. He'll make all kinds of declarations today about what he's going to do tomorrow, but tomorrow he'll forget about what he said yesterday because something else is on his mind, another need exists in his belly. And, so, it's very easy for a drug user to say, "I want help." It's very hard for them to prove that they want help. So number one, a person comes in through many, many ways. Some are referred by court, some are referred by the state drug abuse program, some come in voluntarily, some are sent by the probation department, some are sent by clergymen, rabbis, etc., any--

Studs Terkel From different states, too.

Carl Charnett Not so much. Very few. We just have possibly three people from out of state.

Studs Terkel Oh, I was thinking of--

Carl Charnett Linda?

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Carl Charnett Yeah. She's one--I think there are three people here from out of state, total. Or four.

Studs Terkel Otherwise, from--

Carl Charnett Yeah. They're all in the immediate vicinity of Chicago and suburbs mostly. When a person first comes in, the first thing he does is sit on the prospect chair, which is a symbolic chair in the reception area by the expediter's desk and he gets his first taste of things around here will not be done at his convenience. He'll have to wait. If he gets indignant and changes his mind, I guess he didn't want to do something for himself. If he waits patiently, I guess maybe he does want to do a little bit for himself. Then he gets called into a room with six or seven or eight residents and possibly a director or one or two senior residents and he goes through an interview, a formal interview. Naturally when he's first asked, "Why are you here?" His first response is, "I want to stop using drugs. I want to rid myself of the horrors of narcotics," or some sort of dramatic thing because chances are he doesn't know he's talking to all ex-addicts, he thinks he's talking to a psychologist or a social worker.

Studs Terkel He thinks he can con someone, too.

Carl Charnett Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And when we begin to probe, we find out that he has, let's say, a court case pending for possession of drugs, or his mother threw him out of the house, or his wife threw him out of the house, or he has no money, etc. And then we begin to press him for the real answer. And begin to put his back up against the wall. We laugh at him. We coax him. We tease him. We try every type of pressure to make him tell us and admit to himself at the same time why he's really here. And it ends up that he's really here because there's some external pressure forcing him to be here, and right now for him Gateway's the lesser of two evils. Had he not had that external pressure, he wouldn't be here. All right?

Studs Terkel We'll continue in a moment the conversation with Carl Charnett, director of dynamics at Gateway House, a center for the--well, rehabilitation isn't the word, a community of drug addicts trying to get off it. That's at 48th and Ellis. More of the conversation with Mr. Charnett and other residents, too, in a moment. We pick up a conversation with Carl Charnett at Gateway House talking about the newly arrived addict who wants to be unhooked and the conver--interview he has with some of the residents and members of the staff who are there.

Carl Charnett Next, we begin to talk to him about what does he think is wrong with him. Well, naturally, you know, the first responses are more or less the classics of, "My mother and father ignored me when I was a child," or "I'm neurotic," or "I was, I'm antisocial" or "I'm a schizophrenic paranoiac fram-a-scam" or whatever, you know. And we laugh at that, too, and then we begin slowly but surely using the behavior of a child as an analogy of his behavior; the self-destructive, self-defeating, repetitious lifestyle that he keeps on involving himself into, over and over and over again. Many times we find a youngster who is at home and we point out how everybody at home caters to his needs, how he throws little temper tantrums to get what he wants, his mommy doesn't give him five dollars which he says is for a haircut, but what he really wants it for is drugs, he says, "I'm going to jump out the window." Anything to get his way at any cost. So the investment, and this goes on and on for about an hour. The investment finally required, well, obviously required, is the beginning glimmer of honesty, the beginning glimmer of awareness, the beginning of honesty with himself about where he's really at. That he is, to all practical purposes, a selfish brat who wants his way at all cost, who wants his comfortability at all cost, who has never learned how to accept responsibility, who has never learned how to earn anything that he's wanted, always wants it the easy way now. So after he is accepted, providing he comes off with this honesty, he is immediately welcomed into the family. "Welcome to the family" is the customary phrase that's used. And he's told that he will have a job responsibility. Most probably mopping floors, cleaning toilets, or washing pots, and when he earns more, he'll get more. Everything he wants he'll get, providing he's earned it. When he's earned the privilege of writing, he will write. When he's earned the privilege of making phone calls, he'll make phone calls. When he's earned the privilege of getting a certain amount per week walking around money, he'll get that. When he's gotten the privilege to go to the movies or go to picnics, he'll get those things, too. Everything he earns. He's told the two cardinal rules of the house, which are "No drugs or chemicals of any kind," and "Under no circumstances any physical violence or threat of physical violence." The whole thing we make him understand is, we know you don't feel like acting like an adult. But our theory is, if you behave as an adult, if you act as if you are one long enough, you will become in fact an adult.

Studs Terkel So it's a question of the key phrase, [and that is?] responsibility to self and others. This is number one. How, then, is this done? When the person, you speak of the prospects chair, one way or another the person knows that the place--oh, I know. The question of time. Time. How long? How can you tell? What's the criterion for saying the person now is ready to--

Carl Charnett The time. All right. Number one, a person just doesn't leave. He goes through three stages. The first initial phase of his re-entry into the greater community is living in and working in. With various exposure towards the greater community. In the beginning he isn't even allowed out the front door by himself. And by the time he's here six months he can go to the movies with a buddy of his. By the time he's here eight months he'll be maybe part of the community relations team whose responsibility is to get up in the morning, put on a suit and a tie, take an attaché case and solicit businessmen and corporations and factories all throughout the Chicago and suburban area for our needs in goods, merchandise or in goods, services, or cash. And then he, when he's ready, and I'll go into that in a second, he goes into a second stage of re-entry, which is working in the greater community or going to school in the greater community while living in the house as a second phase resident. Then, after a period of time, he's cut loose from the community almost altogether to the point where he lives and works into the greater community and just returns occasionally for visits and occasional therapeutic groups and to act as a role model for the newer residents saying, "I did it. You can do it, too." The length of time is roughly a year for the first phase, an additional six months for the second phase, an additional six months for the third phase. But this can vary by as, any one of these phases can vary a great deal depending upon the individual. Now. The criteria for entry into these various stages as the criteria for any additional privilege in the house is consistency and maturity. The more he shows, the more he gets. The more he shows, the sooner he gets. Every single thing that happens to him in this environment is basically up to him, because he has a choice as an adult with a brain and an intellect. He has a choice of doing right from wrong. He has a choice of listening to his head or his belly.

Studs Terkel You're really saying that there is choice here.

Carl Charnett By all means. By all means. He wants to do something because it will give him gratification. His head tells him that he shouldn't do it. It's wrong. Viscerally, he still wants to do it. People like, like an infant. Did you ever see an infant? It's what's in its diaper because his bladder is full. Even though it knows at a certain point in its training that it has to go to the bathroom, it may not. It doesn't want to take the effort or the time to go to the bathroom. So it wets where it wets. In many senses the large percentage of drug users who use drugs to the point where it becomes very risky, very dangerous, and very dangerous drugs, to a certain, a large percentage of these people are just like that.

Studs Terkel It's how they became that way, of course. I suppose this is also discussed, is it not, talked about with a new person--

Carl Charnett Not so much how they came. No. We're not concerned with the past very, very much at all. It's the future that counts. What you do from the time you walked in the door. Your life is yours. The position you find yourself in--

Studs Terkel Reality therapy.

Carl Charnett Yes. It's exactly what we use. Reality therapy. The position he finds himself is directly or indirectly due to his own efforts. And we're not concerned about why it happened before. You're an adult. You have a choice. You know right from wrong. Exercise your choice in the right direction and you'll get what you want out of life.

Studs Terkel You have a new prospect. I'm a young person, or for that matter, older but you're saying primarily young, I guess, isn't that so? They're primarily young here, aren't they?

Carl Charnett No, we have them from 16 to 60.

Studs Terkel Well, I sense mostly, I see a variety.

Carl Charnett You must probably have seen initially some of the young people, but there are older people.

Studs Terkel Suppose I'm a new person. I'm sitting in the prospect's chair and I listened to what you and others are saying, of what I must do. Do you ever have this challenged also by a new person, says, "What is this, a prison?"

Carl Charnett Oh, certainly, people think it's a prison. And depends on the environment. If they're in the house, we laugh at him, usually, and we say, "Look around you. Does it really look like a prison?" No. And there are a number of ways in which we can show the person, but generally speaking when somebody who's trying to come into the house as a member of our family, we won't go to too many pains to convince him that what we have to offer is that valuable. He needs us. We don't need him.

Studs Terkel In short, he has to give.

Carl Charnett Yes! Yes! He needs us, we don't need him.

Studs Terkel How do you determine this in the beginning? You, of course, there are others about--to determine that this person will be here. Is there a way or do you work on hunches or just what you see, is that it?

Carl Charnett No, it's just what the person displays to us in the interview. If we feel he's sufficiently honest with us, we'll accept him.

Studs Terkel So Carl, I'm talking to Carl Charnett, who obviously is here right in the heart, in the midst of this whole matter at Gateway House, the director. You mind if I ask you about yourself? Earlier you said that you yourself were an addict. Before that, you spoke of drugs and I brought up the subject of, it's very difficult when I realized the delica--the question of marijuana itself. Does this fall into this category?

Carl Charnett Yes, marijuana is a drug. Have you got me saying marijuana is a drug?

Studs Terkel You've got that down.

Carl Charnett Okay. You asked before, does marijuana for instance lead to other, more harsh drugs. I believe it's a very popular misconception that marijuana does. You see, 30 years ago the marijuana smoker was part of a small drug culture. And, because this small antisocial drug culture was a very tight, closed clique, it had available to it all different types of drugs. The marijuana smoker 30 years ago in order to smoke marijuana, the chances are, of necessity came into contact with cocaine users and heroin users and various other drug users.

Studs Terkel Because it was illegal.

Carl Charnett Because it was illegal and because the subculture was so tight, one person usually handled all of it. All of these drugs. And, of course, if he was that antisocial to participate in this subculture activity to begin with, he would be that immature or that prone towards taking risks to try the other drugs. Today, a conservative estimate would be 50% of the people in large city college and high school campuses experiment with or who are ongoing users of marijuana, it is no longer a subculture. It is the culture of youth to experiment or try marijuana today. So this same rule no longer applies. The average college student or high school student who occasionally experiments with or uses marijuana on the weekends will not be able to come into contact with a heroin user. It's no longer a closed subculture. It is the culture.

Studs Terkel So, then you see--I'm asking you, a non--it's not, you don't see any chemical or physical connection between this, rather it is social.

Carl Charnett Yes. Yes. Yes. Number one, marijuana is a stimulant, a hallucinogenic drugs. Heroin and the opiates are depressant drugs. The lack of effectiveness of one does not lead to a craving for another. It's a complete misconception. Marijuana doesn't really lead to stronger drugs as it did years and years ago.

Studs Terkel Because of the social change in social nature. Coming back to the Gateway House itself, the place, the people in it, are they from all facets of society? Is there one dominant group?

Carl Charnett No, they're all colors, all religions, all age groups, from all walks of life--

Studs Terkel Economically?

Carl Charnett Economically, all levels of society. All levels of income. That's another myth, by the way, that the drug problem is a problem of the ghetto. Today in this day and age drug abuse is a problem that's all over the country, and it affects upper middle-class people as well as lower-class people, it affects whites in very well-to-do suburban communities as well as it affects Blacks in the ghetto areas. And it's a universal problem.

Studs Terkel Before we walk about, you guide me through the area through this particular Gateway House at 48th and Ellis, various rooms, floors, different people I meet, yourself, Carl Charnett, the director of Gateway House, you said that you--how did you get to be this way? Would you mind? How'd you begin?

Carl Charnett Oh gosh.

Studs Terkel How did you get--I mean, how did this understanding that you have come?

Carl Charnett Well, I spent close to four years with Daytop, Daytop Village on the East Coast.

Studs Terkel Perhaps we should talk about this. There are several places similar to Gateway House in Chicago. We know--and celebrated on the West Coast is Synanon.

Carl Charnett Right. Synanon Foundation.

Studs Terkel And in New York is Daytop Village. Is their approach similar to yours?

Carl Charnett Our approach and Daytop's approach is very similar. Now I left Daytop last December or late November of '68 as a result of an internal, of certain internal difficulties the foundation had experienced, and a great many people left Daytop at that time. There were two opposing factions and I decided not to side with either and go my own way and get involved in a new program. As I--when I left Daytop, Gateway is a little bit more concerned in the area with the re-entry of people into the community than Daytop was--

Studs Terkel You mean the community outside.

Carl Charnett The greater community. A little bit more concerned with that than Daytop was back in November of '68. I'm not familiar with their present philosophy and outlook on re-entry into the greater community of their older residents so I really can't say where the difference is. Basically, most therapeutic communities, or I should say all therapeutic communities for addict re-education are run pretty much with the same philosophy. The philosophy also in part that says that the addiction or the dependency on drugs is not a problem. It is only the symptom of a problem, and the real problem is the inability to face reality, the need to insulate oneself from reality and the demands that society makes on them. And they all use similar techniques in teaching a person how to grow up.

Studs Terkel Does the subject of the society itself ever enter into therapeutic sessions?

Carl Charnett In what way? You have to be more specific.

Studs Terkel I mean, say, to make it in this society. You know, to go out. Make it is a bad word. To re-enter the greater society or do people, residents ever discuss the nature of the society itself and the values outside.

Carl Charnett Well, we do occasionally. We don't get too hung up in it because it's difficult. My own personal feelings is society is pretty screwed up. It's a shame that we have to promote the re-entry of our graduates into a society that condones a lot of the things that they were doing directly or indirectly. Today's society, my own opinion with it, you turn on the television the first thing you do, see if you're upset, take Compose, don't find the cause of your anxiety, take compose. If you're tired, don't go to sleep, take No-Doz. If you're lacking vigor and vitality take Vivarin. You know, it's a drug orientated society, it's a society that condones too much irresponsibility. It's a society that is constantly at war with itself and concerning racial issues concerning problems of drugs, et cetera, et cetera. So we don't like to get too involved. We don't like to paint too black a picture for our residents who have to go out there. What we do say, there are injustices out there, living out there is rough, but it's something that if you want to live in the greater community you're going to have to stand head and shoulders above everybody else. You're going to have to, in order to--if you've done what you've had to do in Gateway and you go back out into the greater community and live in the greater community with commitment, with values, you will be a change agent for people around you. Your values will infect them instead of their values affecting you.