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Stephen R. Roszell discusses his documentary film "Other Prisoners"

BROADCAST: Sep. 21, 1987 | DURATION: 00:28:04


Studs interviews Stephen R. Roszell about the time he spent in the Louisville, Kentucky prison to interview and observe inmates and guards for his documentary film "Other Prisoners." Roszell describes his relationship with the inmates during his work and the prison environment. Roszell shares interesting insights to prison life for inmate and guard. Parts of the soundtrack recordings are removed from this edited version of the original.


Tap within the transcript to jump to that part of the audio.


Studs Terkel You know, tomorrow night on Channel 11 at--is it nine o'clock?

Stephen R. Roszell Nine o'clock.

Studs Terkel Nine o'clock Chicago time is the showing of a powerful documentary. It's called "Other Prisoners", but it's different. It's prison through the eyes of the guards down to the Kentucky State Reformatory, and the director, the maker of the film, Steve Roszell, has an excellent track record as a documentarian, and you're from Kentucky yourself. So let's start at the beginning, how this film came to be and your approach, and, and then we'll hear the voices of guards primarily but also some inmates.

Stephen R. Roszell I got interested in doing the tape because I read an article on prison guards in a dirty magazine, and I thought, [laughing] I thought they sounded like an interesting group of people to me. I was in my existentialist phase of life, and, and here was this job position where you're hated at work and you're hated at home because of what you do and you seem to have no effect in anything and you stand and count and watch things for years at a time and wait for something terrible to happen. And it does, and then it goes back to normal again. So I was interested in that.

Studs Terkel Yeah. So this is you talking about the situation. Now, you chose, and perhaps we're, the Kentucky State Reformatory. You're from where in Kentucky?

Stephen R. Roszell Lexington.

Studs Terkel You're from Lexington--now, where's the Reformatory?

Stephen R. Roszell Just outside of Louisville. About 20 miles

Studs Terkel Not too far away. So let's start at the beginning. We hear voices don't -- will you? This is part of the soundtrack of the film that will be on PBS.

Stephen R. Roszell Though I reedited it a little

Studs Terkel Tomorrow night. Right. And so?

Stephen R. Roszell This opens with Lieutenant Ralph Simpson who's 65 and balding and about to retire in a month, who's done 20 years in the Reformatory, and he--at the beginning he's in the inmate graveyard of the Reformatory.

Studs Terkel What do you mean by inmate graveyard?

Stephen R. Roszell Inmates who, who die in the prison. He kind of explains it. If they die there and then no family, no money, nobody who loves them or is interested, they bury them outside the Reformatory.

Studs Terkel So it's sort of a potter's field.

Stephen R. Roszell Yes.

Studs Terkel It's sort of a prisoners' potters--it's called Chicken Hill.

Stephen R. Roszell Called Chicken Hill 'cause Chicken is the first inmate that was buried there.

Studs Terkel Chicken. We'll come to that word "chicken", too, later on. So this is a, a veteran, about to retire, Lieutenant Guard Ralph Simpson.

Stephen R. Roszell Right. [pause in recording]

Studs Terkel You know, listening to this old lieutenant, this old guard about to retire, he speaks of--it's a matter of fact quality. He's been there how many years?

Stephen R. Roszell Twenty years, did 20 in the Navy right before that.

Studs Terkel And now he speaks of the inmates, the prisoners, as guys he knows. He could be talking about acquaintances at a bar.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah. Well, they have to be like that for him, I suppose. He's a, he's a, he's a very wise and friendly person to me, and he's with these people all day long, and I, they do become--I mean, they're, they're his world there.

Studs Terkel By the way, it's an integrated prison. The guards are Black and white.

Stephen R. Roszell Yes. As, as well as the inmates.

Studs Terkel The inmates, too.

Stephen R. Roszell Disproportionately Black, but they are Black and white.

Studs Terkel Yeah, disproportionately, yeah. But this guy Simpson, this old guard Simpson, also has a dry humor underneath there. He says it's his job. He does it, he probably lives nearby with family and all, and he--he's "Compliment when they called me sneaky. That was a compliment, don't you?" You know, it's that -- and he also kind of wants your opinion too, doesn't he? What was the attitude toward you, by the way, of the guards and inmates?

Stephen R. Roszell Well, it was different from every different person I dealt with. Ralph Simpson was very tolerant of me, and I, I guess he kind of liked me. Some of the inmates were, would talk to me, a lot of them, once they perceived I was making something from the point of view of the enemy wouldn't talk to me at all. Generally everybody was real nice, I, I think.

Studs Terkel Oh, I see--the inmates thought you were doing the point of view of the

Stephen R. Roszell Right. The enemy.

Studs Terkel That would be anti-prisoner.

Stephen R. Roszell Right, right.

Studs Terkel Of course, that isn't what you had in mind at all, you were showing a guy on a job, weren't you?

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel So that's Ralph, so--and [it quit younger?], so we, we, we go on, you're wandering about. All right. And?

Stephen R. Roszell The next part deals with the first days people have in the prison. And so it's a, it's group of five different people, guards and inmates lumped together talking about their first days, and, and it may perhaps be a little confusing just who's a guard and who's an inmate, and maybe that's part of the point.

Studs Terkel Yeah, and let me get this. It's the first day we have guards and inmates talking here.

Stephen R. Roszell Telling their story. The

Studs Terkel The first day for each of them.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel The guards' first day and the inmates' first

Stephen R. Roszell day. Right,

Studs Terkel Let's see if we can detect--this will be interesting. We're hearing the voice--by the, my, my guest is Steve Roszell, who is a filmmaker, documentary filmmaker, and this--the soundtrack you're hearing now, the voices, is part of the film, the sound of the film "Other Prisoners". It'll be seen on PBS on Channel 11 tomorrow night at nine. And so now we'll hear both voice. Let's see if we can detect which is the inmate and which is the prisoner, because in a sense you're almost saying there, they're all more or less in a cage.

Stephen R. Roszell Their first experiences are a lot the same.

Studs Terkel Yeah. Let's, let's try see if we can tell the difference. I was thinking--we heard voices, there's Simpson, the old boy, opens and closes, the guard.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel And then it was not too difficult to tell, you know, the second guy was an inmate. And that's the guy you call Bobby Durham, the prison's banker, inmate because the word "humiliation."

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel What they make you do. So then the other guy was the guard, the other guy, one guy had a job at Chrysler's and foundry and so, he got laid off and he got to prison. And there's something you said

Stephen R. Roszell He, he's gone through this whole list of, I thi--I guess, ever more degrading experiences as he tries to find his place in this capital system that keeps laying him off, and eventually it occurred to me he came to a point where he must have had a choice: he could either take yet again one more job, the worst he could find, be a prison guard, or he could commit a crime and become an inmate so, to me, he real strongly stood for a choice.

Studs Terkel This is one of the underlying themes is in, of, of your film "Other Prisoners". Other prisoners. Is that the line of demarcation? It becomes a rather thin one, doesn't it?

Stephen R. Roszell Yes.

Studs Terkel There is a guard later who did become an

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah. There's one that we'll hear from later, and that's important to set--

Studs Terkel Let's stick with old Bobby Durham, the second guy

Stephen R. Roszell

Studs Terkel -- The Who was the inmate. Now, you say he's the prison banker. Explain that.

Stephen R. Roszell Right. He, well, he'll explain a little better

Studs Terkel Oh, he comes in later.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah, he, he, he runs that yard. He, he, he owns everything in it and things that happen, people check with him first, and he's got a real Republican mentality. He talks about the young kids that come in prison these days don't have any ethics, they don't have any morals you know, [laughing]. He's a, he's a real straight Republican, I think he would have voted for Ronald Reagan. But the, the very end of that section when the old guard Simpson is talking with the fellow who's trained him, that's one of my favorite lines from the piece, in fact, when, when, when he's, his instructions for his first day, "Just do what you got to do when you got to do it. We'll explain later." And that feels a lot, maybe, like the way a lot of people start life. That's the way I started life.

Studs Terkel We'll explain later. In what it's -- we'll take our first break. Talking to Steve Roszell, because we have to, you also touch another theme here, that prison is in some way the microcosm of life outside, the same strata of society are there, too. So we're talking to Steve Roszell, and this, these, you're hearing the voices of this soundtrack of the film you will see tomorrow night on Channel 11, PBS at nine o'clock, "Other Prisoners". We'll resume after this message. [pause in recording] Resuming with Stephen Roszell and his film "Other Prisoners", and we've heard voices now, the old guard and voices of a couple of other guards, younger ones, and a, a prisoner, the big shot, Bobby Durham, and well, he always sends money home, doesn't

Stephen R. Roszell Right, yeah. [laughing] Hundreds of dollars. I asked him where his mother thought the money was coming from when he sent it home, and he goes, "I don't think she ever really asked."

Studs Terkel What, his mother know, his mother knows he's in prison.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah, knows he's in prison. I just

Studs Terkel Well, how does he make his dough? He, he, he, he, he gets certain things

Stephen R. Roszell Everyone in pr--everyone in prison works. It's, prison is not kind of like the world, it is the world. If you take 1400 men and strip them of everything and put them in a concrete box, they'll just rebuild the world from the ground up, and it'll all be the same. Everyone in prison has a profession. There's tattoo artists or shoe polishers or launderers or lawyers or, and it's the lawyers who are all going to be suing me next week after the show's on the air, but--

Studs Terkel But you have some white-collar crime guys here,

Stephen R. Roszell too. Yeah.

Studs Terkel Oh, you do?

Stephen R. Roszell Some, some, but I think--but the vast majority that people, of the people in that prison are people who come from dis-disadvantaged beginnings. I think 80, 86 percent of inmates in America were severely abused children.

Studs Terkel Eighty percent.

Stephen R. Roszell That's, that's very significant.

Studs Terkel And the crime mostly is, is robbery, burglary.

Stephen R. Roszell I, I, I, I, I'm not, I'm not sure I'm qualified talk on, on--

Studs Terkel Well, let's pick up more of the voices. Now we got coming up--well, in the way you're telling the story of first day and feelings about the longer you're in and how it ends, more or less this is your theme. Guards and prisoners, this is mostly guards who are your people you're talking to. So where do we go now?

Stephen R. Roszell Next, I think the, the next thing an officer recognizes is there is this very complicated system in the prison that he doesn't run by any means at all, that runs itself. So the next section is Bobby Durham the banker again, and a prison prostitute named Coco explaining that whole capitalist system that all of us when we grow up all of a sudden recognizes is there and we're going have to find our place in.

Studs Terkel Now, when you say he and the prostitute, you, you're talking about a male, of course, it's, it's Coco, and this is par for the course, isn't it?

Stephen R. Roszell Yes.

Studs Terkel In, in -- he's chicken. That's the word I was looking for. "Chicken." If he belongs to someone--

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah, "chicken" would usually refer to someone like a young, white Steve Roszell if he got thrown in prison at 19. No, this is--

Studs Terkel You're chicken.

Stephen R. Roszell This person is, I, I -- would be homosexual on the street as well and is just like any good capitalist finding her niche and filling it. She's--

Studs Terkel Her. You say her. Yeah.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah. She's got--my camera man I think kind of fell for her, she's got real nice legs and--

Studs Terkel You refer to her as she.

Stephen R. Roszell Yes, but she is a man.

Studs Terkel But that's Coco, and talking to the banker.

Stephen R. Roszell Right. Talk -- it's the banker and

Studs Terkel The banker Bobby and both inmates, that's Bobby Durham the banker, let's hear that. [pause in recording] You know, it's interesting about Simpson the old guard, no gun, but the people at church say you've got to carry a gun.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel I think it's kind of

Stephen R. Roszell Said "I wouldn't be in there without a gun," right.

Studs Terkel But this is--and he has ch-little delicate chimes. That's in Simpson's home.

Stephen R. Roszell That's, he's on his front porch out in Mount Eden, Kentucky.

Studs Terkel Now the two other voices were Bobby Durham, the prison banker who is white, and Coco the prostitute who is a young Black.

Stephen R. Roszell Right. Right.

Studs Terkel And they're discussing the system.

Stephen R. Roszell Right. Yeah.

Studs Terkel [Laughing] They could be, they could be in commodities.

Stephen R. Roszell "If there's money to be made, I'm going to dig a ditch to get out there and make it." That's right, they could be in commodities.

Studs Terkel So, so we're talking again of it being a microcosm of the world outside. There was a guy named Jimmy Blake who was a friend of Nelson Algren, years ago who wrote, good writer. He was in a Florida prison and he spoke of this very point that you're making, Steve, about the different--the hierarchy in prison life or the way it goes, the different strata of society matches the world outside. So we're talking about, and what, now explain a little further, cause you have a, a theme that underlies it. The early part of, the old man is talking. The old guard, and then you've got the first day for guard and inmate, and now you've got--

Stephen R. Roszell I, I went to the--I, I would say my, my documentary work I don't think is like, perhaps what's normally on Frontline or on Sixty Minutes. I went to the Art Institute of Chicago, so I would consider myself an artist. Maybe that would be unusual for a documentarian. At least, the way documentaries become today. But my interest was not in prison or criminal justice issues, it's been in how can I use prison as a stage for exploring all the things that I deal with in my life? For exploring the way I, I, I look at the world? So the prison tape kind of follows the course of a guard's career from coming in, being thrown into something you don't understand, discovering it's in fact a very complicated system that you've got to find your place in, you begin to ask yourself, "What can I do to change this world?" Questions of reform, we all think we're going to change the world when we're 22, and then maybe you discover you won't change the world, you'll just try and pass your time in it, and everyone has to choose a way they'll do that. And then finally maybe you recognize it's time to, to leave. So that's the course of the program.

Studs Terkel Now, the, the authorities in prison allowed, gave you free, free rein.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah, they said, "Here's a desk and a telephone and a typewriter and we'll see you in four months."

Studs Terkel And that was

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah. It was really exemplary people, I

Studs Terkel So we pick it up.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel Now, by the way, how does this rank, this Kentucky State Reformatory with other prisons here, is there a?

Stephen R. Roszell Illinois should be so lucky as to have all their prisons be as calm as Kentucky's. But we don't, in Kentucky there aren't gang problems. At all.

Studs Terkel There aren't?

Stephen R. Roszell At, at, at all. And in Illinois, gangs run the prisons. Maybe that's the single big difference. Kentucky has a lot of lower proportion of urban inmates, and we all know that--what cities do to people. So I, I, it was a quiet place, it was a medium security institution. And perhaps more typical of the way prisons are over the whole United States than our picture of prisons where there's a stabbing every 15 minutes.

Studs Terkel And so this is what you were doing. Now we pick it up.

Stephen R. Roszell The next, the next section introduces the, the other inmate who I really paid a lot of attention to in the tape, named Gerald Tungate, who my ex-wife told me if I were in prison that's who I would be like is this Gerald Tungate, a real rebel. And, and, and after he talks for a while about his hijinks, some of the guards will talk about why they're there, why, why guards are in prison and what prisons are for.

Studs Terkel Now, Tungate himself. He's, I take it he's, he's a rebellious guy.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah, yeah. Very, very handsome, charismatic redhead, maybe 28 years old.

Studs Terkel You know what, you know what some of these guys are in for? You know.

Stephen R. Roszell Thi -- yeah, yeah, in--generally. He, he's a, had a long record and right now he's pretrial detainee. He's so bad that a county jail couldn't hold him. So they

Studs Terkel Now is he from a small Kentucky town?

Stephen R. Roszell He's from Louisville. He's from Louisville, and his father has been an inmate and his brother is an inmate in the prison at the same time.

Studs Terkel So he comes to this, so there's a--

Stephen R. Roszell It's that family thing once again, that thing of--

Studs Terkel Tungate. But he's not talking, the guards are talking about him.

Stephen R. Roszell It's both, it's both.

Studs Terkel Oh he, he's

Stephen R. Roszell He'l talk a little, and a guard'll talk a little about him.

Studs Terkel Okay. [pause in recording] "I don't know what I am," says the guard.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel I don't know what I am, he says, and then he's a high-priced babysitter is the way one of them put it. But one of the guards says, "Can you imagine what being in prison would be like?" He's now puts himself in the prisoners' head. But these are--these guards seem to be somewhat different than the stereotype we have of guards or some, well what many really are in other places.

Stephen R. Roszell My experience is that life is always very different than the stereotype of what it is. They are all human beings. Absolutely. And, and most humans, I think, do think about what they're doing and it just, most people it never, it never occurs to ask them.

Studs Terkel They're never--oh, what'd you say, [laughing] they're never asked the question that you have asked, you see. The one other part there about Tungate the crazy guy, Tungate the inmate, the big redheaded guy. He's making a lot of noise. He was hollering. He also knew you were there.

Stephen R. Roszell He was showing off on--

Studs Terkel He was showing off. He also knew that his voice shouting would be heard on that film.

Stephen R. Roszell It was as though we had cued him, though, I've always thought it was funny.

Studs Terkel And he was also banging on that locker, too. To show, yeah, what they're saying about me is true.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel We got to take another break. We're talking to Stephen Roszell, whose documentary called "Other Prisoners", and these are the voices and the thoughts, the days in the lives of guards primarily, but inmates, too, at the Kentucky State Reformatory outside and where in, in Lexington?

Stephen R. Roszell Outside of Louisville, Kentucky.

Studs Terkel Outside of Louisville. We'll resume after this message and the film is seen tomorrow night, Channel 11 at nine. [pause in recording] Resuming with, with Stephen Roszell and "Other Prisoners", this documentary. On a, and we've had old--the, if there's a narrator it's old Simpson the guard, and we pick up now, see, we've had the banker, we've had the prostitute, we had the troublesome one, we've had newer guards and we've had the old veteran.

Stephen R. Roszell The, the next thing we did is one night we went out on the yard with a camera. This is maybe a little unfair, but we went out in the yard with a camera, and anyone who wanted to talk about anything at all, they could walk up and talk. And out of that we kind of came up with this chunk of people talking about why they're in prison and what prison's good for, and, and, and it was interesting. A couple of them had some pretty interesting theories on identities and, and the kind of blur between the people who are oppressing them and the oppressed. So, this opens with a couple of inmates with their theories on, on the vagueness of roles in the world and in prison, and, and following that is a, is a guard who has become an inmate.

Studs Terkel Oh, this guard became an inmate. Now, why? What did he do?

Stephen R. Roszell Well, I was going to leave

Studs Terkel Oh, we'll save that for later, but we have a guard who became, this is the yard.

Stephen R. Roszell It's a guard who's become an inmate. He had some dope in his dorm room.

Studs Terkel Well that's a guess, yeah. That, I mean it's a safe guess.

Stephen R. Roszell Right.

Studs Terkel But the, the guys are talking, the inmates are also talking about [laughing] life. This is funny. What were--they were, were they open to you? I mean, were they eager to talk to you? How did it work?

Stephen R. Roszell They were, they were eager to talk in so far as they had little planned things that they wanted to jump up and say. A lot of them, when I would start asking deeper questions, weren't particularly interested in pursuing any, any path, but I, I think I had a lot of the entertainers on the

Studs Terkel Yeah, right. That's it. That's one of those things you have to face, you have to pretty much find your way of discerning chaff from wheat. That's a tough one, of course. Many are the pretty articulate onstage guys. But let's hear it here, this is in the yard. [pause in recording] Well that stick, there were three of them there, there were two, the, the inmates were talking but one was the ex-guard or became inmate, the last one. Now we talk about--he said "I identify, now I know what it is to feel inmate," that is, he felt that, and now that which he was, the guard, is something alien to

Stephen R. Roszell It's a long way away now.

Studs Terkel Yeah. He was in bachelor--by the way we should make that clear that the guys who were bachelor guards live on the, in, in the--

Stephen R. Roszell They live up in a tower inside the prison and then there's one of them spoke about earlier they got to go through gates to get into their rooms. They can't carry a pocket knife into their room, the room is subject to be searched at any time, so those men live dangerously close to being lives which are just like inmates.

Studs Terkel So, so this guy, this guard who became an inmate because of what he was caught doing, contraband is what he called it, dope, it's a role reversal, isn't it? I mean, it's a switch in identities here.

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah.

Studs Terkel But it came so, almost so frighteningly naturally. This is also one of the undercurrent themes, isn't it, of?

Stephen R. Roszell Yeah, well, it was, at least the, the world didn't change any, just his place in it changed very quickly. He was an interesting character to me in, in that so many people were talking about how much alike guards and inmates were. He does point out maybe the ease of the transition between a guard and an inmate, but it's still a long jump to go from one to another. It

Studs Terkel Yeah. And the other two inmates were talking, one about the nature of rehabilitation and also the fantasy of switching roles some day with the authorities.

Stephen R. Roszell I heard a judge say exactly the same thing once, that, that the only people who benefit from corrections are judges, lawyers, building contractors, and prison guards. That inmates benefit in no way at all. And were we to let all the inmates go out on the street, all those people would be out of work, and then where would they be? So, so -- [laughing]

Studs Terkel Getting close to the core of the apple.

Stephen R. Roszell There is a desperate kind of truth to that.

Studs Terkel Steve Roszell is my guest and, we'll--let's hear one more and then before this next break, we have a couple more to go, what--of course, this is also leading to a farewell, too. So now we have what?

Stephen R. Roszell Now we have the choice that everyone has to make, how they're going to pass their time in life and in the world. And we have Simpson again talking a little, a, a, a tower guard talking about how he passes his time on the tower. A lieutenant who's, who is the pro at sniffing out contraband in the institution talking how he passes his time, and one of the inmates again talking about how he chooses to pass his time, which

Studs Terkel Passing time.

Stephen R. Roszell Passing time.

Studs Terkel Of which there is a great deal there.

Stephen R. Roszell For all of us, but for inmates especially, people in prison. [pause in recording]

Studs Terkel Well, before we go to old Simpson to end it there, that was Tungate, the, the wild one again talking about "If you kill a nigger, it's okay, because it makes, it's, it's an, it's an open cell for another white."

Stephen R. Roszell That's bizarre logic.

Studs Terkel But coming back to the guard, the one guard who watches for contraband, and it's only when he makes a bust that he feels. He's a--he seems so--

Stephen R. Roszell Professional.

Studs Terkel Professional, and yet we know we'll hear him again and which it all collapses.

Stephen R. Roszell Well, he's the one earlier who said, "My job and the things that I do I'd compare it to--" and then he pauses for a minute to try and think, and he can't think of anything, and he says, "I don't know what I am," so kind of underneath, I think, that professionalism is, is a, a great void.

Studs Terkel Yeah. So what we really have are, are --is a view here, of you from the outside, primarily told by guards at a reformatory, a prison in Kentucky, outside Louisville, and by a Kentuckian, Steve Roszell who's an excellent documentary filmmaker as you can gather. And by the way, there's another film of yours called "Writing on Water" that dealt with people talking about someone they knew who--

Stephen R. Roszell Who had gone crazy.

Studs Terkel Who flipped, who went crazy. But here we're talking about a society within it, we're getting a picture of society and after this last message we'll have the last aspect of

Stephen R. Roszell The thrilling conclusion.

Studs Terkel And the thrilling conclusion. This is to be seen tomorrow night. The, the hour documentary. "Other Prisoners" and on Channel 11 at nine, and we'll resume for the last lap in a moment. [pause in recording] And so we come, we've heard about six or seven excerpts, Steve, from your soundtrack of your film, "Other Prisoners", and we've heard throughout has been the voice of the old guard, I just--I suppose about to retire, Simpson, and we've heard the banker, the banker inmate, Bobby Durham, we heard the wild one, Tungate, we've heard the prostitute and a few of the others talking, and also a guy who lost a job at Chrysler, became a guard, but he could go either way, and also one who did become an inmate, a guard. So how do we end?

Stephen R. Roszell The last section starts off again with Ralph Simpson talking about how you finally begin to see prison affect you. He had an incredible amount of wisdom to me in that he's recognized--he's retiring in a month and he has recognized it's time for him to go. He doesn't say in, in today, but in the program towards the end he says, "I'm going to like it too much, and that ain't any good, is it? Yeah, I'm starting to like fighting with them. So that's how I can tell it's time for me to go." It just tickles that--

Studs Terkel Now, he recognized something. Course again, about to say if someone--there are two theories. Well, there are two experiences, really, depending on individuals, too, and circumstance. One is being a guard for a long time will harden you all the more, or in some other instance it might make you see the whole aspect of the human comedy in a different way. This guy, the old man Simpson is recognize--hey, wait a minute, something may be happening to me beyond which it won't be any good. Like it.

Stephen R. Roszell And so he's recognized it's time for him to go. He opens up this section of himself and four other guards talking about times and ways in which that world they're in has affected them and changes, and changed them, finishing with the guard who's now an inmate again.

Studs Terkel So let's end with this. This by way of thanking you, too, Steve Roszell for, you know, for giving us this soundtrack, but to making this film. "Other Prisoners" to be seen tomorrow night, Channel 11, PBS, at nine o'clock. [pause in recording] And so I was thinking we'll end, postscript, because we'd said goodbye, Steve, because one of the guards spoke of this dream, this nightmare, and he wakes up and he's got this gun pointed at--but he had this dream, didn't he? So we're talking about, there's, there's a strange dreamy quality about all this, too, nightmarish but dreamy, isn't there? That seems to be one of the undercurrents of it, too.

Stephen R. Roszell Just kind of a, it was all a very slow, sad thing to me. A lot of people passing time, and a lot of pain, and a lot of sadness.

Studs Terkel "Other Prisoners" is the film. Steve Roszell my guest the filmmaker, and it's tomorrow night, PBS Channel 11 at nine, and thank you very much.

Stephen R. Roszell Thank you very much.