Jamie Gilson discusses her children's book "Harvey the beer can king"
BROADCAST: May. 22, 1978 | DURATION: 00:53:04
Transcript
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Studs Terkel My guest is Jamie Gilson. How can I describe Jamie? She was a member of the staff of WFMT a number of years ago. Jamie since then and then too has been a volunteer teacher of children, of children up north. We'll come to that. Who, in the matter of writing poetry and some of her young colleagues have won a number of Gwendolyn Brooks awards. Jamie's recently written a book for boys ages eight and 12. It's called "Harvey the Beer Can King," published by Lothrop which is a subsidiary of, of Morrow. So in a moment about "Harvey the Beer Can King" and why the beer cans and of course some of the poetry that Jamie and I will read of some of her associates who are about eight, nine, 10, 11. All this in a moment and Jamie after this message.
Jamie Gilson "Happy Orange is like getting a baseball rally on a summer afternoon. Crashing Red is knocking down 155 stacked beer cans. Miserable Black is being sick on Saturday. Gray is like a broken muffler. Dark Green is sticking your finger in a light socket and getting a shock by accident. Black is throwing your favorite ball on the roof so you can go up there. But your mother says you can't."
Studs Terkel Here's color. John [Doocey?] wrote it.
Studs Terkel Who's John [Doocey?]?
Jamie Gilson Oh, John [Doocey?] was a, a boy who, who for the most part I think didn't like to write but, but sometime, somehow this method of, of teaching poetry which, which was originated by Kenneth Koch, a New York poet who wrote, "Wishes, Lies and Dreams," and "Rose, Where Did You Get That Red?", two fantastic books on the teaching of poetry. A lot of people are using them and I started using them about, oh, six years ago. And it reminds me a little of the "Madwoman of Chaillot." Somebody said to her, "Are those pearls real?" And she said, "When you wear pearls long enough they become real." [laughter] And so, by now I think it's mine and you use a lot of different methods to get children to see the world in a different way.
Jamie Gilson This is one of them.
Studs Terkel And I suppose one of the ideas, too, is to get us to see the world the children's way, too.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel You know, Woody, Woody Guthrie once said when he wrote children's songs, that were not children's songs, that were the opposite of the patronizing ones. You see if only we could learn to think as they think. You know the wild imagination or, or, to laugh as they laugh. Now here you've got. This John. How old is John?
Studs Terkel Now color. Just the use of color. Is that it?
Jamie Gilson That's right. That's right.
Studs Terkel Dark green is sticking your finger in a light socket and getting a shock by accident. He is dark
Studs Terkel Gray is a broken muffler.
Jamie Gilson [laughter] I love that one. That one's really grand.
Studs Terkel How, how does he know broken muffler of a car?
Studs Terkel I didn't know. I would think a muffler somebody put it around
Jamie Gilson Oh, no, no. I. It was the muffler of a car.
Studs Terkel 'Cause he knows more about cars than I do. [laughter] But Gray is a broken muffler.
Jamie Gilson Sure. And somehow the concept of choosing a color of elaborating on the kind of color it is and finding an emotion that fits with it is enormously exhilarating to them. And they write and write and get a great deal of joy from it.
Studs Terkel Oh, what is it you do? Now I know the Kenneth Koch had several books highly acclaimed around the idea's of getting children to write.
Jamie Gilson Well I tell you, what, what I do first of all. The very first day is to come in and say, "We're going to do some writing today and it's going to be something that only you can see, only you can do." And I have them close their eyes tight and I ask them what they see and it's marvelous because it's always enormously thrilling because they look and I say, "What color is it?" And one says, "It's black," and the other one says, "No, no! It's green! It's green! [laughter] And I ask them, you know, "What, what kind of green? When, when you touch it, what would it feel like?" And they say, "Cotton," and another one because of course everybody really does see something totally different when their eyes are closed. And I tell them to put their fingers over their eyes and it, it changes of course. And then they have their paper in front of them and I ask them to start writing what they see. And of course it's partly Rorschach. You know, you see what you want to see. But it's, it's also a kind of beginning lesson in, in the fact that everybody does see something completely different and nobody refuses to write because everybody sees strange and, and and wonderful things. Here read one. This one was written by Chris [Musel?]
Jamie Gilson A sixth grader this year. All of these for the most part
Jamie Gilson Eleven, 12. Yeah.
Studs Terkel "Close My Eyes" is the name. "When I close my eyes I see a big bang. Huge, unimaginable size. Bright yellow, green, blue. The beginning of the universe. Then bursting outward shattering green, yellow, red, blue, all colored sparks flying outward. Then light orange, white swirling mushroom clouds. Tangible, light, pulling, surrounding, enveloping. Then, I see planets sailing up forming constellations. Life on planets and then all fall back into a glowing ball and then it starts again."
Jamie Gilson Yes he was pretty excited when he wrote that.
Studs Terkel Well.
Jamie Gilson And he saw it with his eyes closed and his, his pencil was, was really going like crazy. Here's, here's one of, of a girl who, who did this. One thing about these Studs is that they never seem phony to me, you know. They never seem like highly romanticized sort of things. They always seem kind of genuine maybe because that's sixth graders and they're all down to earth.
Studs Terkel The one thing about Chris [Musel?]. He's pretty sophistic-you see, he used the word tangible.
Studs Terkel Or the word, unimaginable.
Jamie Gilson That was a [unintelligible] of him, yes.
Studs Terkel Who are? Perhaps we should-
Jamie Gilson Well these are all. These are all. These are all sixth graders and they vary in abilities enormously from some who have a great deal of difficulty writing. Who's, who indeed have, have some, some problems in reading still, to those like Chris certainly.
Studs Terkel And you get those who have problems in reading?
Jamie Gilson If-
Jamie Gilson Yes, yes. It's absolutely true. There are children occasionally, frequently who simply have not written before who are exhilarated enough [laughter] by all of this to do it. We
Studs Terkel We should point out perhaps that some children with difficulty reading, writing are not always in, in a, the ghetto area somthing or we'll call the inner city.
Studs Terkel 'Cause you're talking here about this area.
Jamie Gilson This is Wilmette.
Jamie Gilson This is Wilmette. And I, I go once a month to, to three classes. So that's 90 children.
Studs Terkel I mean you go. You, you go. You're a volunteer.
Studs Terkel And what do you do? You. How, how do you get in the class? What is this?
Jamie Gilson Well, I, I know the teacher. One of my children was in, in the class and I had been teaching in the library, you know. I said that I, I taught poetry. This was three, four years ago. And she said come on in. So I have, I have come every, every school month since then. And at the end of, at the end of the time, I type up what they've written and have hundreds, hundreds of poems that the, that the children
Studs Terkel I think, some of your students or colleagues, I say some of your friends, have won, are poet laureate. Gwendolyn Brooks has offers awards for best children's poetry.
Jamie Gilson Yes Gwendolyn Brooks-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson has taken her position as poet laureate completely seriously. And she has set up every, every springtime, she has a poetry contest for children, grade school children and high school children. And she gives prizes from her own money. She will not accept money from foundations from anyone, and she gives awards to children who have written poetry that, that she believes deserves awards. And I've had, I think eight children who have won those awards and it has been a, a kind of highlight of their lives, really. They've all been so impressed by her and by the award. There, there there's a luncheon and, and it's given with, with great seriousness and
Studs Terkel Have they? You started them, a number of these children between ages six and 12 and do, do you know whether some have continued?
Jamie Gilson Yes, yes. One one of my very favorite stories is of, is of Eugene Nomura. Eugene is, well he was in this country for three years and had spoken no English at all. He came from Japan and he wrote two poems which he sent to the contest and won last year. And when at Christmas time, I got a card from his mother and she said, "Eugene is still writing poetry." She said, "His poem was in the yearbook this year and it was titled 'Skateboard'." [laughter]
Studs Terkel And you say he learned English only three years.
Jamie Gilson Yes. Yes. And shortly after he won this, he went back to Japan where his, where his "Skateboard" poem was published.
Studs Terkel [unintelligible] Eugene Omara, how old was he when
Jamie Gilson Eugene, Eugene was also 12. And this was from a lesson that begins with the reading of William Carlos Williams. And I read some of his poems which I, I frequently, almost all of them except this first one. I read genuine poets-
Studs Terkel Now.
Jamie Gilson So that they will know.
Studs Terkel
Jamie Gilson My guest is Jamie Gilson. How can I describe Jamie? She was a member of the staff of WFMT a number of years ago. Jamie since then and then too has been a volunteer teacher of children, of children up north. We'll come to that. Who, in the matter of writing poetry and some of her young colleagues have won a number of Gwendolyn Brooks awards. Jamie's recently written a book for boys ages eight and 12. It's called "Harvey the Beer Can King," published by Lothrop which is a subsidiary of, of Morrow. So in a moment about "Harvey the Beer Can King" and why the beer cans and of course some of the poetry that Jamie and I will read of some of her associates who are about eight, nine, 10, 11. All this in a moment and Jamie after this message. "Happy Orange is like getting a baseball rally on a summer afternoon. Crashing Red is knocking down 155 stacked beer cans. Miserable Black is being sick on Saturday. Gray is like a broken muffler. Dark Green is sticking your finger in a light socket and getting a shock by accident. Black is throwing your favorite ball on the roof so you can go up there. But your mother says you can't." Here's color. John [Doocey?] wrote it. Yes. Yes. Who's John [Doocey?]? Oh, John [Doocey?] was a, a boy who, who for the most part I think didn't like to write but, but sometime, somehow this method of, of teaching poetry which, which was originated by Kenneth Koch, a New York poet who wrote, "Wishes, Lies and Dreams," and "Rose, Where Did You Get That Red?", two fantastic books on the teaching of poetry. A lot of people are using them and I started using them about, oh, six years ago. And it reminds me a little of the "Madwoman of Chaillot." Somebody said to her, "Are those pearls real?" And she said, "When you wear pearls long enough they become real." [laughter] And so, by now I think it's mine and you use a lot of different methods to get children to see the world in a different way. But also- This is one of them. And I suppose one of the ideas, too, is to get us to see the world the children's way, too. Yes. You know, Woody, Woody Guthrie once said when he wrote children's songs, that were not children's songs, that were the opposite of the patronizing ones. You see if only we could learn to think as they think. You know the wild imagination or, or, to laugh as they laugh. Now here you've got. This John. How old is John? John was 12. He's 12. John is 12. Now color. Just the use of color. Is that it? That's right. That's right. Dark green is sticking your finger in a light socket and getting a shock by accident. He is dark green. Yes, sure it is. Gray is a broken muffler. [laughter] I love that one. That one's really grand. How, how does he know broken muffler of a car? [unintelligible] Yes. Yes. I didn't know. I would think a muffler somebody put it around Oh, no, no. I. It was the muffler of a car. 'Cause he knows more about cars than I do. [laughter] But Gray is a broken muffler. Sure. And somehow the concept of choosing a color of elaborating on the kind of color it is and finding an emotion that fits with it is enormously exhilarating to them. And they write and write and get a great deal of joy from it. Oh, what is it you do? Now I know the Kenneth Koch had several books highly acclaimed around the idea's of getting children to write. Well I tell you, what, what I do first of all. The very first day is to come in and say, "We're going to do some writing today and it's going to be something that only you can see, only you can do." And I have them close their eyes tight and I ask them what they see and it's marvelous because it's always enormously thrilling because they look and I say, "What color is it?" And one says, "It's black," and the other one says, "No, no! It's green! It's green! [laughter] And I ask them, you know, "What, what kind of green? When, when you touch it, what would it feel like?" And they say, "Cotton," and another one because of course everybody really does see something totally different when their eyes are closed. And I tell them to put their fingers over their eyes and it, it changes of course. And then they have their paper in front of them and I ask them to start writing what they see. And of course it's partly Rorschach. You know, you see what you want to see. But it's, it's also a kind of beginning lesson in, in the fact that everybody does see something completely different and nobody refuses to write because everybody sees strange and, and and wonderful things. Here read one. This one was written by Chris [Musel?] How old? A sixth grader this year. All of these for the most part are Chris Eleven, 12. Yeah. "Close My Eyes" is the name. "When I close my eyes I see a big bang. Huge, unimaginable size. Bright yellow, green, blue. The beginning of the universe. Then bursting outward shattering green, yellow, red, blue, all colored sparks flying outward. Then light orange, white swirling mushroom clouds. Tangible, light, pulling, surrounding, enveloping. Then, I see planets sailing up forming constellations. Life on planets and then all fall back into a glowing ball and then it starts again." Yes he was pretty excited when he wrote that. Well. And he saw it with his eyes closed and his, his pencil was, was really going like crazy. Here's, here's one of, of a girl who, who did this. One thing about these Studs is that they never seem phony to me, you know. They never seem like highly romanticized sort of things. They always seem kind of genuine maybe because that's sixth graders and they're all down to earth. The one thing about Chris [Musel?]. He's pretty sophistic-you see, he used the word tangible. Yes. Yes. Or the word, unimaginable. That was a [unintelligible] of him, yes. Who are? Perhaps we should- Well these are all. These are all. These are all sixth graders and they vary in abilities enormously from some who have a great deal of difficulty writing. Who's, who indeed have, have some, some problems in reading still, to those like Chris certainly. And you get those who have problems in reading? If- To write poetry. Yes, yes. It's absolutely true. There are children occasionally, frequently who simply have not written before who are exhilarated enough [laughter] by all of this to do it. We should point out perhaps that some children with difficulty reading, writing are not always in, in a, the ghetto area somthing or we'll call the inner city. Of course not. 'Cause you're talking here about this area. This This is Wilmette. It's Wilmette. This is Wilmette. And I, I go once a month to, to three classes. So that's 90 children. I mean you go. You, you go. You're a volunteer. That's right. And what do you do? You. How, how do you get in the class? What is this? Well, I, I know the teacher. One of my children was in, in the class and I had been teaching in the library, you know. I said that I, I taught poetry. This was three, four years ago. And she said come on in. So I have, I have come every, every school month since then. And at the end of, at the end of the time, I type up what they've written and have hundreds, hundreds of poems that the, that the children have I think, some of your students or colleagues, I say some of your friends, have won, are poet laureate. Gwendolyn Brooks has offers awards for best children's poetry. Yes Gwendolyn Brooks- Yeah. has taken her position as poet laureate completely seriously. And she has set up every, every springtime, she has a poetry contest for children, grade school children and high school children. And she gives prizes from her own money. She will not accept money from foundations from anyone, and she gives awards to children who have written poetry that, that she believes deserves awards. And I've had, I think eight children who have won those awards and it has been a, a kind of highlight of their lives, really. They've all been so impressed by her and by the award. There, there there's a luncheon and, and it's given with, with great seriousness and it's Have they? You started them, a number of these children between ages six and 12 and do, do you know whether some have continued? Yes, yes. One one of my very favorite stories is of, is of Eugene Nomura. Eugene is, well he was in this country for three years and had spoken no English at all. He came from Japan and he wrote two poems which he sent to the contest and won last year. And when at Christmas time, I got a card from his mother and she said, "Eugene is still writing poetry." She said, "His poem was in the yearbook this year and it was titled 'Skateboard'." [laughter] And you say he learned English only three years. Yes. Yes. And shortly after he won this, he went back to Japan where his, where his "Skateboard" poem was published. [unintelligible] Eugene Omara, how old was he when he Eugene, Eugene was also 12. And this was from a lesson that begins with the reading of William Carlos Williams. And I read some of his poems which I, I frequently, almost all of them except this first one. I read genuine poets- Now. So that they will know. Now Yes. or But
Studs Terkel You read Williams Conners Williams to them.
Jamie Gilson Yeah yeah. This this is a, these are are nice ones that, that have a title and underneath it, not in a, not in a sentence. They're, they're they're groups of words that add up to the title. One is called, "Locust Tree and Blossom." And and so I read them some of those and we talk about the idea of choosing specific words and the whole idea is to, is to look at words individually and, and Eugene's-- can I read one of his?
Studs Terkel Please.
Jamie Gilson One, one is, is a real favorite of mine only has six, only has six words in it, and it's called, "Doughnut." And, and note now that each of these is lined up one under the other. "Sweet. Rich. Sunglass. Chocolate. Cavities. God."
Studs Terkel Hey!
Jamie Gilson Isn't that nifty?
Studs Terkel Hey, that's fantastic! [laughter] Sweet. Boy this leads up to it, too, doesn't it?
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel Sweet, rich, sunglass, chocolate, cavities, God.
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel This is. He goes one step better than haiku.
Jamie Gilson [laughter] Indeed yes. And, and and another one that he sent. In, in fact the one that won the prize was called, "Old English Sheepdog." You wanna read
Studs Terkel You read. You read.
Jamie Gilson Ok. "Hairy, tubby, fluffy, white, black, flea and tick's castle. When he runs it looks like a winter coat dragging down the hill. And it's nice."
Jamie Gilson And the whole idea of, of this which, which the children really like because it seems easy is to choose words that come to the title. Interesting, good words.
Studs Terkel Of course you, you realize something pretty obvious to me, that you, it's natural that you be of a friend of these children and the teacher and that you evoke this poetic feeling cause you have that same. You know I'm going to use that word now, childlike not childlike, that sense of wonder and enthusiasm that you have is obviously contagious.
Jamie Gilson Oh, indeed they do delight me, Studs. It's really true. They, they do things that are, that are always an astonishment. And, and I don't know. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell what is, is childlike or not but they're very aware.
Studs Terkel Isn't the poet? Isn't, isn't? Aren't all the best poets child-like?
Studs Terkel They have that childlike imagination that green would be that or red would be that or [each would write?] this way.
Jamie Gilson That's right. It is seeing things in a new way, the way a child does.
Jamie Gilson Yes, yes. It's true. It's true. And. Let me, let me do read, read Lydia's too because
Studs Terkel Oh you were about to read.
Jamie Gilson The one, the one about closing, closing her eyes.
Jamie Gilson Because it's, it gives me pleasure-
Studs Terkel Lydia Morris. She's
Jamie Gilson Yes. She's, she's in sixth grade this year.
Studs Terkel All
Jamie Gilson And she said upon closing her eyes, "When I close my eyes, I see beautiful green circles like the eyes of peacock feathers changing colors as they go with silver in the corners and a shy red in the background. And when I cover my eyes it all goes away and I see silver circles floating in the air. And then, just the thin, black sky."
Studs Terkel Wow!
Jamie Gilson It's really quite
Studs Terkel It's great. And, and it is. There is a peacock.
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel The the the colors.
Jamie Gilson Yes and it is it is all from that kind of wonder of closing your eyes and seeing what you can see.
Studs Terkel You just used the word. I get that, that's a thing. The air of wonder.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel It's the wonder and that's what you encourage and evoke.
Jamie Gilson And well that's what, that's what they, they have a lot of, too. Some of them are, are just kind of amusing delights like. Read this one. That one's, "School Desks."
Jamie Gilson By Tom [Grainess?]
Studs Terkel Tom [Grainess?] and he's about the same age?
Jamie Gilson Yes. This is the same kind of form with one word under the other adding up to the
Studs Terkel Oh I'm in trou-- oh that's it. I see. Adding up. I see. "School desks. Dark. Mysterious. Junky. Books. Papers. Disappearances. The Bermuda Rectangle." [laughter] Now.
Jamie Gilson
Studs Terkel [Isn't Now of course there is this humor. There is this sly humor. Now obviously, he's heard of the Bermuda Triangle.
Studs Terkel What. That's been. What I. That's been publicized a lot, isn't it? TV and radio.
Jamie Gilson Greatly. Greatly. Children are very interested in mysteries.
Studs Terkel So I'm gonna ask you also, miss but I also ask about the effect of television in a moment, too. But no doubt his parents and others. Bermuda Triangle. So he's taken off on the whole thing.
Studs Terkel Bermuda Rectangle 'cause the school desk is the mystery, isn't it? Dark, mysterious. That's true. junky, books, paper, disappearances. [laughter] The
Jamie Gilson There it is. It's really all right.
Studs Terkel Jamie, we've got to speak to another aspect of your work. You've just written. We'll come back to the poetry, too. We go back and forth. This is an improvised program. I figure with Jamie Gilson she's the guide on this program, going along for the ride here. And you wrote a book called, "Harvey the Beer Can King."
Studs Terkel And.
Jamie Gilson It is for children of this age.
Studs Terkel Now this is for boys primarily.
Jamie Gilson Yeah but it has, it has girls in it, too. No. I, I it is true wrote it because-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson the school librarian or rather, the Wilmette librarian said that what you really needed was more books for children specifically boys between eight and 12. That they tended to read an awful lot of sports books.
Studs Terkel Did she say anything?
Jamie Gilson They needed more.
Studs Terkel Did she say anything about the effect? She'd been a librarian for some time then?
Jamie Gilson Indeed.
Studs Terkel Was she a librarian before the advent of TV?
Jamie Gilson Yes I suppose Studs that, that it really can't be denied that, that television cuts down on children's reading and many children avoid reading things unless, unless they have to for school. And I wrote about beer cans specifically because I had a lot of neighbor children, neighbor children around me who collected beer cans. And as a matter of fact, three of them had what seemed to me a vast collection, nearly a 1000 cans and their mothers, who you might not be surprised to learn, hated that a lot. And maybe that's why boys collect beer cans.
Jamie Gilson Yeah. Because there's. It has to annoy their parents. It's just got to. [laughter] And but they had a 1000 of them and they gathered them up and one of them would keep them for three month or so period and then the next one would keep them and then the next one would keep them then they would, they would stack them up in these vast pyramids around their, their room. And they're really marvelous to look at. They're very colored and-
Studs Terkel By. You got the idea for this from the boys themselves.
Jamie Gilson Yes. Yes I, I called I called them over and said I'm thinking about writing a book about, about a beer can collector. And so I, I was Studs Terkel there. I got out my tape recorder and I asked them questions.
Studs Terkel Was it beer cans? No. I guess they ask you why they collect beer cans. 'Cause these are cans from out of, out of commission companies.
Jamie Gilson Not, not. Well, yes.
Studs Terkel Old cans, everything too.
Jamie Gilson In part. There. A, a beer can collector can start and I have seen them. I live across from a park.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson And I see little boys out there [laughter] foraging for cans they don't have.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson And they go out and they collect these cans and they take them home and there are just on cans currently in existence, they can build a pretty big triangle.
Studs Terkel Now is one of the big reasons for liking the beer cans because of the, of the ubiquitous TV commercials involving beer, too?
Studs Terkel Possibly?
Jamie Gilson Maybe so. Maybe so. they don't seem so much really interested in the beer as, as the way they look. I
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson they just like the way
Studs Terkel It's, it's not Pabst or Miller's.
Jamie Gilson No!
Studs Terkel They collect these. Oh! Little, little-known ones.
Jamie Gilson Oh,
Jamie Gilson Oh, certainly they prefer those. Yeah.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel Where do they get those?
Jamie Gilson Well, they get. They get them in, in sometimes in dumps and sometimes when they go on vacation, they try to look near streams. Some of them are really terrible looking.
Studs Terkel You have one, an old can.
Jamie Gilson I
Studs Terkel And a lot of them, cone tops.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel The old fashioned.
Jamie Gilson The cone tops. They started making in '39. Thirty-nine and stopped making in the '50s. And they made cone tops because they had equipment to fill, fill bottles and so they made beer
Studs Terkel So 25 Schlitzs or 30 Budweisers or 50 might be worth one cone
Studs Terkel in
Jamie Gilson That's right. They are, they are very good traders and the guys I talked with told me what was, what was good to trade.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson They told me about guys who ripped off other little guys. And they told me about a boy who lived in Chicago who had all of his cans out in a big shed behind his, his house. And they they talked about what their cans were worth and about how breweries were going out of business and they said, "You know all these little
Studs Terkel breweries." They
Jamie Gilson Oh yes! They really become very much informed.
Studs Terkel [unintelligible]
Jamie Gilson On, on what breweries going out of business. And it becomes a very interesting kind of, of a curious side interest but I don't know how different it is in theory from collecting stamps-
Studs Terkel
Jamie Gilson
Studs Terkel My guest is Jamie Gilson. How can I describe Jamie? She was a member of the staff of WFMT a number of years ago. Jamie since then and then too has been a volunteer teacher of children, of children up north. We'll come to that. Who, in the matter of writing poetry and some of her young colleagues have won a number of Gwendolyn Brooks awards. Jamie's recently written a book for boys ages eight and 12. It's called "Harvey the Beer Can King," published by Lothrop which is a subsidiary of, of Morrow. So in a moment about "Harvey the Beer Can King" and why the beer cans and of course some of the poetry that Jamie and I will read of some of her associates who are about eight, nine, 10, 11. All this in a moment and Jamie after this message. "Happy Orange is like getting a baseball rally on a summer afternoon. Crashing Red is knocking down 155 stacked beer cans. Miserable Black is being sick on Saturday. Gray is like a broken muffler. Dark Green is sticking your finger in a light socket and getting a shock by accident. Black is throwing your favorite ball on the roof so you can go up there. But your mother says you can't." Here's color. John [Doocey?] wrote it. Yes. Yes. Who's John [Doocey?]? Oh, John [Doocey?] was a, a boy who, who for the most part I think didn't like to write but, but sometime, somehow this method of, of teaching poetry which, which was originated by Kenneth Koch, a New York poet who wrote, "Wishes, Lies and Dreams," and "Rose, Where Did You Get That Red?", two fantastic books on the teaching of poetry. A lot of people are using them and I started using them about, oh, six years ago. And it reminds me a little of the "Madwoman of Chaillot." Somebody said to her, "Are those pearls real?" And she said, "When you wear pearls long enough they become real." [laughter] And so, by now I think it's mine and you use a lot of different methods to get children to see the world in a different way. But also- This is one of them. And I suppose one of the ideas, too, is to get us to see the world the children's way, too. Yes. You know, Woody, Woody Guthrie once said when he wrote children's songs, that were not children's songs, that were the opposite of the patronizing ones. You see if only we could learn to think as they think. You know the wild imagination or, or, to laugh as they laugh. Now here you've got. This John. How old is John? John was 12. He's 12. John is 12. Now color. Just the use of color. Is that it? That's right. That's right. Dark green is sticking your finger in a light socket and getting a shock by accident. He is dark green. Yes, sure it is. Gray is a broken muffler. [laughter] I love that one. That one's really grand. How, how does he know broken muffler of a car? [unintelligible] Yes. Yes. I didn't know. I would think a muffler somebody put it around Oh, no, no. I. It was the muffler of a car. 'Cause he knows more about cars than I do. [laughter] But Gray is a broken muffler. Sure. And somehow the concept of choosing a color of elaborating on the kind of color it is and finding an emotion that fits with it is enormously exhilarating to them. And they write and write and get a great deal of joy from it. Oh, what is it you do? Now I know the Kenneth Koch had several books highly acclaimed around the idea's of getting children to write. Well I tell you, what, what I do first of all. The very first day is to come in and say, "We're going to do some writing today and it's going to be something that only you can see, only you can do." And I have them close their eyes tight and I ask them what they see and it's marvelous because it's always enormously thrilling because they look and I say, "What color is it?" And one says, "It's black," and the other one says, "No, no! It's green! It's green! [laughter] And I ask them, you know, "What, what kind of green? When, when you touch it, what would it feel like?" And they say, "Cotton," and another one because of course everybody really does see something totally different when their eyes are closed. And I tell them to put their fingers over their eyes and it, it changes of course. And then they have their paper in front of them and I ask them to start writing what they see. And of course it's partly Rorschach. You know, you see what you want to see. But it's, it's also a kind of beginning lesson in, in the fact that everybody does see something completely different and nobody refuses to write because everybody sees strange and, and and wonderful things. Here read one. This one was written by Chris [Musel?] How old? A sixth grader this year. All of these for the most part are Chris Eleven, 12. Yeah. "Close My Eyes" is the name. "When I close my eyes I see a big bang. Huge, unimaginable size. Bright yellow, green, blue. The beginning of the universe. Then bursting outward shattering green, yellow, red, blue, all colored sparks flying outward. Then light orange, white swirling mushroom clouds. Tangible, light, pulling, surrounding, enveloping. Then, I see planets sailing up forming constellations. Life on planets and then all fall back into a glowing ball and then it starts again." Yes he was pretty excited when he wrote that. Well. And he saw it with his eyes closed and his, his pencil was, was really going like crazy. Here's, here's one of, of a girl who, who did this. One thing about these Studs is that they never seem phony to me, you know. They never seem like highly romanticized sort of things. They always seem kind of genuine maybe because that's sixth graders and they're all down to earth. The one thing about Chris [Musel?]. He's pretty sophistic-you see, he used the word tangible. Yes. Yes. Or the word, unimaginable. That was a [unintelligible] of him, yes. Who are? Perhaps we should- Well these are all. These are all. These are all sixth graders and they vary in abilities enormously from some who have a great deal of difficulty writing. Who's, who indeed have, have some, some problems in reading still, to those like Chris certainly. And you get those who have problems in reading? If- To write poetry. Yes, yes. It's absolutely true. There are children occasionally, frequently who simply have not written before who are exhilarated enough [laughter] by all of this to do it. We should point out perhaps that some children with difficulty reading, writing are not always in, in a, the ghetto area somthing or we'll call the inner city. Of course not. 'Cause you're talking here about this area. This This is Wilmette. It's Wilmette. This is Wilmette. And I, I go once a month to, to three classes. So that's 90 children. I mean you go. You, you go. You're a volunteer. That's right. And what do you do? You. How, how do you get in the class? What is this? Well, I, I know the teacher. One of my children was in, in the class and I had been teaching in the library, you know. I said that I, I taught poetry. This was three, four years ago. And she said come on in. So I have, I have come every, every school month since then. And at the end of, at the end of the time, I type up what they've written and have hundreds, hundreds of poems that the, that the children have I think, some of your students or colleagues, I say some of your friends, have won, are poet laureate. Gwendolyn Brooks has offers awards for best children's poetry. Yes Gwendolyn Brooks- Yeah. has taken her position as poet laureate completely seriously. And she has set up every, every springtime, she has a poetry contest for children, grade school children and high school children. And she gives prizes from her own money. She will not accept money from foundations from anyone, and she gives awards to children who have written poetry that, that she believes deserves awards. And I've had, I think eight children who have won those awards and it has been a, a kind of highlight of their lives, really. They've all been so impressed by her and by the award. There, there there's a luncheon and, and it's given with, with great seriousness and it's Have they? You started them, a number of these children between ages six and 12 and do, do you know whether some have continued? Yes, yes. One one of my very favorite stories is of, is of Eugene Nomura. Eugene is, well he was in this country for three years and had spoken no English at all. He came from Japan and he wrote two poems which he sent to the contest and won last year. And when at Christmas time, I got a card from his mother and she said, "Eugene is still writing poetry." She said, "His poem was in the yearbook this year and it was titled 'Skateboard'." [laughter] And you say he learned English only three years. Yes. Yes. And shortly after he won this, he went back to Japan where his, where his "Skateboard" poem was published. [unintelligible] Eugene Omara, how old was he when he Eugene, Eugene was also 12. And this was from a lesson that begins with the reading of William Carlos Williams. And I read some of his poems which I, I frequently, almost all of them except this first one. I read genuine poets- Now. So that they will know. Now Yes. You read Williams Conners Williams to them. Yeah yeah. This this is a, these are are nice ones that, that have a title and underneath it, not in a, not in a sentence. They're, they're they're groups of words that add up to the title. One is called, "Locust Tree and Blossom." And and so I read them some of those and we talk about the idea of choosing specific words and the whole idea is to, is to look at words individually and, and Eugene's-- can I read one of his? Please. One, one is, is a real favorite of mine only has six, only has six words in it, and it's called, "Doughnut." And, and note now that each of these is lined up one under the other. "Sweet. Rich. Sunglass. Chocolate. Cavities. God." Hey! Isn't that nifty? Hey, that's fantastic! [laughter] Sweet. Boy this leads up to it, too, doesn't it? Yeah. Sweet, rich, sunglass, chocolate, cavities, God. Yeah. This is. He goes one step better than haiku. [laughter] Indeed yes. And, and and another one that he sent. In, in fact the one that won the prize was called, "Old English Sheepdog." You wanna read it? You read. You read. Ok. "Hairy, tubby, fluffy, white, black, flea and tick's castle. When he runs it looks like a winter coat dragging down the hill. And it's nice." Wow! The Old And the whole idea of, of this which, which the children really like because it seems easy is to choose words that come to the title. Interesting, good words. Of course you, you realize something pretty obvious to me, that you, it's natural that you be of a friend of these children and the teacher and that you evoke this poetic feeling cause you have that same. You know I'm going to use that word now, childlike not childlike, that sense of wonder and enthusiasm that you have is obviously contagious. Oh, indeed they do delight me, Studs. It's really true. They, they do things that are, that are always an astonishment. And, and I don't know. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell what is, is childlike or not but they're very aware. Isn't the poet? Isn't, isn't? Aren't all the best poets child-like? I suppose. Yeah. They have that childlike imagination that green would be that or red would be that or [each would write?] this way. That's right. It is seeing things in a new way, the way a child does. A fresh way. Yes, yes. It's true. It's true. And. Let me, let me do read, read Lydia's too because it's Oh you were about to read. The one, the one about closing, closing her eyes. All right. Yeah. Because it's, it gives me pleasure- Lydia Morris. She's about Yes. She's, she's in sixth grade this year. All And she said upon closing her eyes, "When I close my eyes, I see beautiful green circles like the eyes of peacock feathers changing colors as they go with silver in the corners and a shy red in the background. And when I cover my eyes it all goes away and I see silver circles floating in the air. And then, just the thin, black sky." Wow! It's really quite graceful- It I think. It's great. And, and it is. There is a peacock. Yeah. The the the colors. Yes and it is it is all from that kind of wonder of closing your eyes and seeing what you can see. You just used the word. I get that, that's a thing. The air of wonder. Yes. It's the wonder and that's what you encourage and evoke. And well that's what, that's what they, they have a lot of, too. Some of them are, are just kind of amusing delights like. Read this one. That one's, "School Desks." "School Desks." By Tom [Grainess?] Tom [Grainess?] and he's about the same age? Yes. This is the same kind of form with one word under the other adding up to the title. Oh I'm in trou-- oh that's it. I see. Adding up. I see. "School desks. Dark. Mysterious. Junky. Books. Papers. Disappearances. The Bermuda Rectangle." [laughter] Now. [Isn't Now of course there is this humor. There is this sly humor. Now obviously, he's heard of the Bermuda Triangle. Oh sure. What. That's been. What I. That's been publicized a lot, isn't it? TV and radio. Greatly. Greatly. Children are very interested in mysteries. So I'm gonna ask you also, miss but I also ask about the effect of television in a moment, too. But no doubt his parents and others. Bermuda Triangle. So he's taken off on the whole thing. That's it. Bermuda Rectangle 'cause the school desk is the mystery, isn't it? Dark, mysterious. That's true. junky, books, paper, disappearances. [laughter] The Bermuda There it is. It's really all right. Jamie, we've got to speak to another aspect of your work. You've just written. We'll come back to the poetry, too. We go back and forth. This is an improvised program. I figure with Jamie Gilson she's the guide on this program, going along for the ride here. And you wrote a book called, "Harvey the Beer Can King." I did indeed. And. It is for children of this age. Now this is for boys primarily. Yeah but it has, it has girls in it, too. No. I, I it is true wrote it because- Yeah. the school librarian or rather, the Wilmette librarian said that what you really needed was more books for children specifically boys between eight and 12. That they tended to read an awful lot of sports books. Did she say anything? They needed more. Did she say anything about the effect? She'd been a librarian for some time then? Indeed. Was she a librarian before the advent of TV? Yes I suppose Studs that, that it really can't be denied that, that television cuts down on children's reading and many children avoid reading things unless, unless they have to for school. And I wrote about beer cans specifically because I had a lot of neighbor children, neighbor children around me who collected beer cans. And as a matter of fact, three of them had what seemed to me a vast collection, nearly a 1000 cans and their mothers, who you might not be surprised to learn, hated that a lot. And maybe that's why boys collect beer cans. For that very reason. Yeah. Because there's. It has to annoy their parents. It's just got to. [laughter] And but they had a 1000 of them and they gathered them up and one of them would keep them for three month or so period and then the next one would keep them and then the next one would keep them then they would, they would stack them up in these vast pyramids around their, their room. And they're really marvelous to look at. They're very colored and- By. You got the idea for this from the boys themselves. Yes. Yes I, I called I called them over and said I'm thinking about writing a book about, about a beer can collector. And so I, I was Studs Terkel there. I got out my tape recorder and I asked them questions. Was it beer cans? No. I guess they ask you why they collect beer cans. 'Cause these are cans from out of, out of commission companies. Not, not. Well, yes. Old cans, everything too. In part. There. A, a beer can collector can start and I have seen them. I live across from a park. Yeah. And I see little boys out there [laughter] foraging for cans they don't have. Yeah. And they go out and they collect these cans and they take them home and there are just on cans currently in existence, they can build a pretty big triangle. Now is one of the big reasons for liking the beer cans because of the, of the ubiquitous TV commercials involving beer, too? I don't know. Possibly? Maybe so. Maybe so. they don't seem so much really interested in the beer as, as the way they look. I I Yeah. they just like the way they It's, it's not Pabst or Miller's. Or No! They collect these. Oh! Little, little-known ones. Oh, Is that it? Oh, certainly they prefer those. Yeah. Yes. Where do they get those? Well, they get. They get them in, in sometimes in dumps and sometimes when they go on vacation, they try to look near streams. Some of them are really terrible looking. [unintelligible] You have one, an old can. I And a lot of them, cone tops. Yes. The old fashioned. The cone tops. They started making in '39. Thirty-nine and stopped making in the '50s. And they made cone tops because they had equipment to fill, fill bottles and so they made beer cans So 25 Schlitzs or 30 Budweisers or 50 might be worth one cone top- That's right. in That's right. They are, they are very good traders and the guys I talked with told me what was, what was good to trade. Yeah. They told me about guys who ripped off other little guys. And they told me about a boy who lived in Chicago who had all of his cans out in a big shed behind his, his house. And they they talked about what their cans were worth and about how breweries were going out of business and they said, "You know all these little breweries." They Oh yes! They really become very much informed. [unintelligible] On, on what breweries going out of business. And it becomes a very interesting kind of, of a curious side interest but I don't know how different it is in theory from collecting stamps- Yeah. or But
Jamie Gilson coins. And they're, they are extremely knowledgeable about all of
Studs Terkel this. Out of it has come "Harvey the Beer Can King."
Jamie Gilson Right.
Studs Terkel Now, Harvey's a certain kind. Harvey's how old?
Jamie Gilson Harvey, Harvey is 12.
Studs Terkel He's
Jamie Gilson And he has, he's collected these cans. He and a friend of his are, are entering a, a contest.
Studs Terkel A contest. But Harvey is also kind of an operator, isn't
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel He's an entrepreneur.
Jamie Gilson He is, indeed. He tends, as much as he doesn't want to, to, to lie a little to himself and to other people about the way things really are.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson And.
Studs Terkel He's also cause later on he gets this sort of comeuppance, in a way.
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel He's sort of a sharp operator.
Studs Terkel And some of the kids resent Harvey, don't
Jamie Gilson Yes, he's got. He has some friends he put some things over on and they do dreadful things like egging him. Do you know egging, Studs?
Studs Terkel Egging?
Jamie Gilson It is. It happens there. What we do is throw an egg.
Jamie Gilson And it gets the guy. And.
Studs Terkel Until they egg him.
Jamie Gilson They egg him and they, they give him a hard time.
Studs Terkel Harvey has several young friends who catch on to him.
Studs Terkel And.
Studs Terkel But this is the story of "Harvey the Beer Can King." I think perhaps we could. Well let's take a pause now. I'll start reading a sequence from [unintelligible] And this is Harvey, first person. I'm talking to Jamie Gilson. The book I'm going to read from is "Harvey the Beer Can King," and it's, it's quite a book. It's a study but it's funny. It's also wistful, too. [laughter] And also I found out a lot about beer cans, [laughter] those cone top ones. Lothrop or Lathrop. Lothrop,
Jamie Gilson Lothrop, Lee and Shepard is the whole
Studs Terkel And they're part of William Morrow.
Jamie Gilson Indeed.
Studs Terkel This moment. Also more the poetry of your colleagues.
Jamie Gilson Good.
Studs Terkel In a moment after this message. [pause] So resuming the conversation with Jamie Gilson. Now, set the scene. I'm gonna to read this chapter two, "Harvey the Beer Can King, Avalanche." You wanna to set the scene for this?
Jamie Gilson Ok. Well, he has just decided Studs, to enter the big contest. He's got a friend who's going to enter who is a, who's a magician and who turns out to be is his bete noir there. But but he is lying in bed there thinking about his cans and all of the marvelous fame he's going to have.
Studs Terkel And it's Harvey talking.
Jamie Gilson It's Harvey talking.
Studs Terkel "In bed that night I thought about all the kids who'd see my name on a big gold trophy shining in its new glass case and they'd see my picture in the paper. 'Hey! That's Harvey!' They'd yell. 'I know Harvey Trumble. Everybody knows him. He's got more beer cans than anybody in the world. I bet if he stacked his collection up in two big piles, King Kong would think they were the World Trade Center and I could see the old Goodyear Blimp.' It's interesting how he's aware of these things on television, too. The Goodyear Blimp.
Jamie Gilson Sure.
Studs Terkel King Kong, World Trade Center. "I could see the old Goodyear Blimp pulling this long glowing sign through the night sky. Harvey Trumble! Harvey Trumble. It flashed in red white and blue lights. It was beautiful! But then, when the pictures went away I wondered if I really did have enough cans. See, in the dark, I could hear my gerbils." What's a
Studs Terkel Gerbil.
Jamie Gilson The little, furry creature. [laughter]
Studs Terkel And so much I, how much I know about [laughter] gerbils scuttling around in their cage. Oh, he has a pet in in his room "And and spinning that Ferris wheel." Oh! I get it.
Jamie Gilson I Yeah. They, they run.
Studs Terkel "I, I could faintly make out my beer cans and stacks around the room. They were in alphabetical order from Acme to Van Merritt." These are actual beer companies. Indeed.
Jamie Gilson Indeed.
Studs Terkel Acme to Van Merritt. "I haven't told Quint the truth, though. I didn't have 798 cans at all. It was closer to 600 and a lot of them doubles. I don't even know why I told Quint I had so many. Maybe the contest judges would count. Maybe somebody would find out I was lying. If I could make a lot of good trades and hustle around." Hustle is the operative word here. "And hustle around I thought. Everybody would realize it was a serious collection. Still, even though it was midnight I couldn't close my eyes. I needed a plan. Quint was so sure he'd win." That's his rival.
Jamie Gilson Right.
Studs Terkel "It was hard for me to be that sure. There was only one thing to do. Fix myself a thick peanut butter toast to help me think. My brain needed quick energy." Again, we got a commercial at work here.
Jamie Gilson [laughter] Right.
Studs Terkel "I got up on the dark and tiptoed quietly across the cold floor. Suddenly I was flying. I was a rocket and I could see the stars to prove it. Somehow I'd stepped down smack in the middle of my skateboard. It shut backwards, flung me forward and slammed us both headfirst into a four-foot stacks of beer cans. Those cans dominoed over and touched off more piles which set off still more and the avalanche just kept on going. A to V, all my cans were lying there scattered on the floor. Then for a whole minute, it was very, very quiet. My big brother Peter snapped on the light. 'You all right, Harvey?' he asked, his eyes half open. There I was on the floor in my Green Bay Packers pajamas with beer cans heaped around my feet, rubbing my head. As soon as he focused in on me, Peter closed his eyes, shook his head and said very quiet and steady, 'Harvey, why don't you grow up?' He staggered out slamming the door so hard, the cans clanged all over again, arranging themselves in new heaps. Julia opened the door next, sniffling and stumbling in dragging her stuffed owl Zachary by his wing. She did what she always does when she's mad and sleepy at the same time. She yowl like a siren and then she started pounding me on the head with that crazy owl. I was pulling myself up off the floor to swat her one when my mom and dad appeared together blinking at the light. At first they just stood there in their nightclothes staring. They took in the floor and then me, being beaten up with an owl by this runny-nosed kid. 'Oh Harvey,' mom sighed as though this was going to hurt her a lot more than it did me. She picked up Julia and Zachary and stumbled for the cans toward the door. 'Harvey. Harvey.' She went on sounding like a record I heard before. 'I think you should collect stamps. You can keep them in books on shelves.' As she left, I could hear her talking through Julia's shrieks. It's an excellent hobby. Very quiet. She didn't shout I guess because she knew my father would. He did. He blew his stack! 'Harvey Trumble!' He roared. 'You listen to me!' He kept pointing his finger at me to make sure I knew what he who was talking to. 'I've just about had enough of this nonsense. Those beer cans are leaving this house!' It's weird how things can strike you funny. I mean beer cans leaving. It sounded crazy. I got this Technicolor picture in my head of all my cans sprouting legs, picking themselves up, slapping to attention and leaving this house for the front door like some metal army. I was smart enough not to smile about it though. The cans were just turning the corner and kicking their heels in the air, when it occurred to me, he might be serious. And I realize [a camera click?] that I turned the volume down. But when I switched back, he was talking loud enough to keep Julia awake. 'Tell you right now about these cans.' I hadn't missed much. 'One, they clutter up your room so it can't be properly cleaned.' My father is very organized. He's always one, two, threeing things. 'Two, they smell dreadful! Twelve-year-old's bedrooms have no business smelling like a brewery.' This wasn't really fair because I always washed my cans out. I really did. 'Three, stacks of cans are painfully noisy when they hit the deck at midnight!' From her room, we could hear my sister give one last cry before plugging her mouth with her thumb. 'Fourth, they make it look like I drink barrels of beer. Which I don't.' Well he probably drinks scotch. [laughter] 'Fifth, and finally, I don't like them!' Fifth and finally, I don't like them! He reached down. Picked up an Old Chicago can that had stopped at his bare toes, crunched it in half with one hand and tossed it back into the mess. My stomach churned. I think I'd better argue even though that hardly ever works with my dad. But dad. I said, 'Sir,' I said, 'I've been saving these cans for almost three years. And I like them more than anything I've got. I do. I bet they're worth a $1000 dollars easy. I ought to get $20 dollars alone for my Old Dutch cone top.' That's an old beer.
Jamie Gilson Right.
Studs Terkel [unintelligible]. "I looked for it in the general direction of the O's with no luck. I was glad Old Chicago he crumbled was practically worthless. It's here somewhere. 'Fine,' replied my father not really listening to my grand totals. 'Sell them! Or you can take him to the recycling center so they'll be put to good use again. But,' he said pointing his finger and a grand sweep around my room. 'I want them out of this house by Sunday night. Do you understand me?' Reason hadn't worked. This time I was begging. 'Can't I keep the $20 dollar ones at least? The really great ones like the old Dutch Coney and that [Cato?] Coney?' I got so cheap at the flea market. I looked around for it but I've gone into hiding. 'Look Harvey,' he said quieter. He was calming down but he wasn't giving an inch. 'It may say on these beer can books of yours you've got beer cans worth $20 dollars but you can't tell me somebody'd pay you for that. Do you know anybody who will?' I didn't. He had me there. I didn't even know anybody who had $20 dollars to spend. So I didn't have a sappy, a snappy Superman answer. I just want to keep my collection. All of it. Dad closed the door quietly leaving his midnight fury right there in the room with me and my banned cans. I decided to forget about the peanut butter toast and get some sleep. So I waded through the clanking cans, climbed into my bed, an island in the middle of a rolling metal sea.
Jamie Gilson Studs, you do it proud.
Studs Terkel Now there is avalanche. But Poor Harvey. I suppose in a sense he had, he has a problem.
Jamie Gilson Oh yes he does have a problem. He solves it in one way or another. But yes that does give him a problem right there.
Studs Terkel He does solve it eventually. [laughter] This involves a circus of his friend and magicians and the gold gazebo.
Jamie Gilson Yes, all kinds of things. Yeah.
Studs Terkel And his colleagues. And the way he makes up to his colleagues toward the end.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel This is "Harvey the Beer Can King." But, this is of ages of eight to 12? That's right.
Studs Terkel Now, the beer can. So you got the idea. This from, from the kids themselves.
Jamie Gilson Sure. They, they, they collect with such vigor and their interest is so enormous, that, that I just listen to them talk and listen to the tapes back again. Got all kinds of ideas from that and then wrote the book about Harvey.
Studs Terkel There's something in your approach that a-- you listen to them. At the same time, you expect something. I mean. They're expecta-- you know they're gonna to come through.
Jamie Gilson Oh
Studs Terkel They know that you know.
Jamie Gilson That's right. Indeed that's true,
Studs Terkel Isn't that what it's about, really? It's what teaching's about, too.
Jamie Gilson [laughter] Yes, yes. I, I enjoy children of, of that age. They. Of all ages I
Studs Terkel But why that age? Why that
Jamie Gilson But those -they seem they seem very straight forward and they're so eager. And I don't know. I, I have I have yet another poem from, from a boy who was also, who was 12. Who kind of shows a number of the, the qualities, the kind of daring qualities of of children that age. For this one, I had rid- I had read to them from Walt Whitman's, "Song of Myself," and had told them that I wanted them to say as Walt Whitman had, I am fabulous. I am fantastic. I am marvelous. And Mike Whitman, interestingly enough, the same name there, [throat clearing noise] won, won a prize from Gwendolyn Brooks with this one which has that kind of feeling that I really tried to get in the guys that I wrote in, in Harvey. Can I read you Oh,
Studs Terkel one? Oh, I hope so.
Jamie Gilson It's called, "I Dare You." "Come with me and you will never lose a penny. My shoulders are broad. My feet are quick. I can eat a McDonald's hamburger while riding a unicycle. So come with me and we will see a grain of sand with people on it. I am great because I am the greatest thief. And if you will follow me in the moonlight, you will be the best in years to come. But for now, I am the best and the world is for mine to choose. I am the greatest flying ace in the world. I can hang from wings and hang on the propeller and turn around in circles. Ask me for a ride. I dare you. The air up there is pure and my heart dances with glee to hear the engine purr. I would die to live the life of an ace." Isn't that knockout?
Studs Terkel Mike Whitman is Walt Whitman. [laughter] Really is. It is "Myself I Sing."
Studs Terkel A single, separate person. Immense in passion, pulse and power.
Studs Terkel And that's what he's doing, isn't it?
Jamie Gilson That's it, that's it. Partly, you give them, you give them this fantastic example and say, "OK. Here's what he says he is. What are you, friend? What, what, what, what can you do that's fabulous?" Sometimes they feel anxious about, about this and it turns into, it turns into a kind of fantasy and then I, I can tell I tell them sometimes if you can't do it for yourself, give, say some elaborate lies.
Studs Terkel Hey, you know Jami- one thing about you. And I think Woody Guthrie has songs, too and that's there is no patronizing air at all here. On the contrary, you become them and they become. That is. That is, you called upon their imagination.
Jamie Gilson Not, not just equal better. I don't write poetry. [laughter] They do.
Studs Terkel You come upon their imagination.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel And, and that's it. You're someone they know who evokes these feelings and cause you expect them to, you know. But, but you read say Whitman and William Carlos Williams. You don't fool around.
Jamie Gilson That's right. There's there's another one. As a matter of fact, that's, that's, that always works out well. Perhaps in 6th grade, one studies the, studies Greece and Rome and sometimes they like it and sometimes they don't, you know. But. So I decided that I would look for a Roman poet that I could read to them. And I found that Gilbert Highet has some marvelous translations in a book called, "Poetry in the Landscape," and in it, Horace, has takes walks which he describes in, in poetry as, as Highet has translated it. And I read it to them and they, they've studied about, about Romans so they have a pretty good idea what it's all about. And I ask them to take a walk down a, down a street or wherever, wherever they like and, and talk about it. And after having heard Horace. Well clearly they're not Horace but they, they can do the same thing. Here is another of, of those good Gwendolyn Brooks poets that. Do you wanna to read it or?
Studs Terkel You read it. You keep. I like for you. I'll, I'll read the next one. You read
Jamie Gilson All right. All right. This one is. This one is called, "Streets of London," and it was written by Juno Kim. Juno, also he was 12 when he wrote
Jamie Gilson Yes Korean. That's right. And he, he always had a good feeling for, for what he was writing but this one, this one is astonishing, Studs, in that Juno Kim was writing about London and he hadn't been in London says he was six. And he could not have known that we were going to write about it. You know, about places we had been. So here's what he wrote. "I get off." It's called, "Streets of London." "I get off the bus number 13 at the Oxford Circus. Piccadilly Circus is down Regent Street. Marble arches to the west. Buses roam while taxis and cars zoom around. People tromp on the sidewalk to keep the beat of the hustle and bustle. I walk toward Piccadilly and Buckingham Palace. Salesmen yell, 'Hot chestnuts.' As I look above my shoulder, I see a convoy of taxis eating up the ground doing 40. I passed the gigantic Hamblen [Hamley?] toy store. On the other side, I see a masked criminal being chased by the voices of the Lord. And the beat goes on."
Studs Terkel That's incredible!
Jamie Gilson Isn't that a? [laughter] Marvelous.
Studs Terkel Yeah, it is. You see, his descriptions of this area, which I remember just as a visitor is perfect, but then he se-, "I see a masked criminal-"
Jamie Gilson That's
Studs Terkel being chased by the voices."
Jamie Gilson "The voices of the Lord." Fancy that.
Studs Terkel Wow! All of a sudden something surreal-
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel comes in, leave the impression.
Jamie Gilson Do you know what I, what I, what I also do, Studs always, is not only to read, now I after having read "Horace," I read to them what other children have written. And children are always impressed by these. And to my knowledge, nobody ever says, "Poetry?" They really, they, they like it and they like what other children have written. And, and I, to my knowledge, they never put anybody down, having done it. Do read this one. This one.
Studs Terkel Which
Jamie Gilson This one also won a prize. Jim Hammond also was at Normandy Beach when his parents took him there when he was six, seven. And this was on that day of having read "Horace," and talking about a walk you have taken. And it's a nice one.
Studs Terkel And his parents told him what had happened there?
Jamie Gilson Well no. He, he remembered. He remembered. Six years old. He had remembered.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson So when I said, "Give me a walk. A walk so that we can tell how you feel about it with, without your having to say, with details."
Studs Terkel "Get out of the car. Walk down the beach. I can almost hear the soldier shouting. Turn right. See a knocked-out German tank. Go over a hill then feel a tear come to your eye when you see the row of graves. Race my dad up to a pillbox! Then we climb an extra tall hill. At the top of the hill, there's a monument. On the ceiling is a painting showing angels carrying dead soldiers to heaven."
Jamie Gilson Yes. He really remembers it. And it's-
Studs Terkel Wow!
Jamie Gilson And, it is. It is such a vivid memory. And he starts down at the beach and goes up and up to a tall hill. On the hill is a monument. On the ceiling is a painting.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson And there are angels carrying solidiers.
Studs Terkel After he's walking up,
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel That's right. It's coming from the ground to the ceiling.
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel Or from the earth to the sky.
Jamie Gilson That's right. And it was, was really, was really very well-
Jamie Gilson put
Studs Terkel But this was based upon the idea of the walk. Of
Jamie Gilson That's right. That's right. And the walks, the walks vary a lot. There is one at 12:00, I went for
Jamie Gilson Larry Saint Clair wrote, "At twelve o'clock, I went for a walk. The snow was white. Snowman greeting me on the way. As I walk, my feet grunch in the snow. Snowballs go whizzing by. The trees are tall and small. The leaves go on vacation and so do I."
Studs Terkel Yeah. "Leaves go on vacation. So do I."
Jamie Gilson Now, this, this. One more of this
Jamie Gilson because Alex Robinson wrote this one about being on. You see it translate itself into almost any situation. A walk is, is almost as much of a Rorschach test almost as much of a do anything you like as closing your eyes. But there has to be a framework. There has to be a suggestion to get them going and Alex wrote this way.
Studs Terkel This is on uncle Marshall's farm. That is, he does have an uncle.
Jamie Gilson Yes, yes, yes. Oh indeed.
Studs Terkel [Marshall, visit the] farm." "Barking hounds. Sheep being shaved. We go inside. We take three 22 shotguns. Get three hound dogs. The dogs go crazy. You let them go, they're chasing a fox. I raised my gun and fire. The fox goes down. He's dead. 'Perfect shot,' says Uncle Marshall. That's interesting, I take it Alex Robinson wrote this, about 12.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel Is also a farm boy or or has been around
Jamie Gilson Has been around farms.
Studs Terkel Yeah because the idea of the hunting and the fox.
Jamie Gilson They are. They are really at their best when talking about themselves and things they know. I always ask them to write lies, also. This was. This is Kenneth Kenneth Koch's idea. He says, too many people say, "All right do some creative writing here. Let's use your imagination. Let's have a little fantasy." Any of those three statements will kill almost anything. Creative writing automatically makes you think
Studs Terkel Yeah. [unintelligible] word.
Studs Terkel It's a terrible word.
Jamie Gilson Use your imagination. You just can't ever say. And fantasy almost always brings out dwarves, tro- trolls and, and it's, it's kind of hard but to say-
Studs Terkel The traditional fairytale, yeah.
Jamie Gilson That's right. But to say, "Write a lie."
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson Sometimes-
Jamie Gilson Sometimes does it very nicely. This one is one of my very favorites. I don't know. I am I'm always affected by it. It was written by a third-grade boy in a class of third-graders who were doing some interesting things. But I told them to write a lie in every line. And Shannon Burke wrote this. Going on, the others had, had stopped writing. But he went on and on and somehow couldn't seem to stop. And it, it always astonishes me. It's called, "In a Pickle." "I was born in a pickle." His first lie. "When I was 10, I was a light bulb. When I was 15, I was a picture. When I was 20, I was the letter A. When I was 25, I was a giraffe. When I was 30, I was a Martian. When I was 35, I was an octopus. When I was 40, I was a unicorn." Now how does this child in the third grade know that when you're 40, you're a unicorn? [laughter] I know. But they get to be increasingly more true. "When I was 45, I was a bowl of Rice Krispies. When I was 50, I was a banana. When I was 55, I was a Dixie riddle cup. When I was 60, I was a lollipop. When I was 65, I was a can of tomato sauce. When I was 70, I was a broken umbrella. When I was 75, I was a piece of junk. When I was 80, I was a cat with eight tails. When I was 85, I was a moving van. When I was 90, I was an elephant. When I was 95, I was a monster without a head. When I was 100, I was a piece of glass and someone whipped a rock at me and I broke."
Jamie Gilson Isn't that something?
Studs Terkel How old was Shannon
Jamie Gilson Shannon was in the third grade which would have made him nine, eight. Eight, nine.
Studs Terkel Yes.
Jamie Gilson I don't understand how he knew those things.
Studs Terkel I
Jamie Gilson And he wrote them. He wrote them furiously and with, with a kind of. He could not have stopped.
Studs Terkel You know, this is, imagine the study of old age. He was nine years old. When I
Jamie Gilson Do you notice that in the earlier ones, he skips. Well, no. He goes 10. No, he does go five.
Studs Terkel Every five years.
Jamie Gilson That's
Studs Terkel But there they are. A variety. Pickle, lightbulb, already has picture, Giraffe, martian, octopus. Forty unicorn. Right, but then when he hits 65, about then. Isn't it funny?
Jamie Gilson It starts kind of.
Studs Terkel Something else, can of tomato sauce.
Jamie Gilson That's
Studs Terkel And now we go on with 70. "I was a broken umbrella. When I was 75, I was a piece of junk." And oh you're now getting older. So now he did the more surreal because this time you're through but I'm 80. I was a cat with eight tails. Now something surreal comes in but he. Eight-five. A moving van. That could be almost anything.
Studs Terkel Kicked out. Oh, you [don't] remember Albee's "American Dream." The grandmother's taken away in
Studs Terkel [unintelligible] funny? Yes.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel Grandma taken away in a van? When I was 90, I was an elephant. Well now, we get age, power, pachydermous. Legend. Ninety-five monster without a. You would be 91. [Whose?] That was a hundred. He had a goal. He had a goal and someone. I was a piece of glass, fragile. The old, old grandmother, death in the family. You know. And and someone whipped a rock at him. That's an unbelievable poem.
Jamie Gilson And, and the. Yet the. The language of the last line is very eight-year-old. What you do. You don't throw rocks. You whip rocks.
Studs Terkel Oh! Whipped a rock!
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel Whipped a rock at me.
Jamie Gilson That's right. That's, that's what happens when somebody does something in anger. They don't. They don't throw
Jamie Gilson They whip a rock.
Jamie Gilson That's right. That's right. So it's, it's the it's the language of the child. And I find this always very moving.
Studs Terkel Now what, what you said here. How you. Did? You said, "Write about a lie."
Jamie Gilson A lie in every line.
Studs Terkel Ah. So you didn't say creative imagination.
Jamie Gilson No, it doesn't work,
Studs Terkel No it's horrible.
Jamie Gilson It doesn't work. It really
Studs Terkel But a lie. Say something. Tell me something funny. [laughter] Tell me a joke. Yeah. Tell me a lie. A big lie.
Jamie Gilson And sometimes we, sometimes we we do these getting, priming them by going round going round to those people in the class who want to and say, "All right, you tell a lie and you tell a bigger one for the next lie."
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson And it, it gets them started.
Studs Terkel Oh. So tell me you have a collective poem.
Jamie Gilson Yeah. Yes yes. We had, we had a collective. One of my. One of the kind that they like doing best, collective poems, is, is, is something they always react to, a fingernail going down the chalkboard and they don't.
Studs Terkel Wow! I even hear the sound.
Studs Terkel Oh God! I hear that sound!
Jamie Gilson And so they. They always like. They always like doing it and I, I write it on the blackboard, the chalkboard and ask everybody to, to give one line.
Studs Terkel Line.
Jamie Gilson Everybody wants to and they [can?].
Studs Terkel So this is in the class poem, six to
Jamie Gilson Yeah. No this. It was. It was the class that was called-
Jamie Gilson six, eight. It was the
Studs Terkel So they all took a whack at this.
Jamie Gilson That's
Studs Terkel We'll alternate.
Jamie Gilson All right. And it's, "A Fingernail Going Down the Chalkboard."
Studs Terkel "A fingernail going down the chalkboard like an owl screeching at night."
Jamie Gilson "A train making a sudden stop."
Studs Terkel "It tastes like chalk."
Jamie Gilson "Or tinfoil on a filling."
Studs Terkel "It gives you chills down your back."
Jamie Gilson "It sounds like teeth scraping together."
Studs Terkel "It sounds like a fork scraping on a metal dish."
Jamie Gilson "It gives you goose bumps on your tongue."
Studs Terkel "It feels like the tingling of your foot when it's sleep."
Jamie Gilson "It sounds like the creek of the door in an old house."
Studs Terkel "It sounds like a car making a sharp turn."
Jamie Gilson "It feels like a shivering going up your spine,-"
Studs Terkel "like frost bite on your backbone."
Jamie Gilson [laughter]
Studs Terkel Hey, that's really
Jamie Gilson It's fun. I ask them what, not only did, if they can say not only what it sounds like but what it taste like. And they come up with marvelous taste
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson Tinfoil and a filling. Fancy that!
Studs Terkel Tinfoil.
Jamie Gilson It's
Studs Terkel Oh yeah. Tinfoil and a filling also sharp pain-like.
Jamie Gilson Yeah.
Studs Terkel Wow!
Jamie Gilson Yes. That one's. That one is, is an especially, is an especially good one.
Studs Terkel So you have several who would do it as a group.
Jamie Gilson Yes. Sometimes you do it as a group and it gets people going as to, as to what sounds are amusing. For instance, Jennifer Downey here then. After we'd done-
Jamie Gilson something like that at the beginning, the idea was just to get sounds and tell what they are like. It it really is is kind of the basics of metaphor simile. Everything, the basics of poetry not too seriously taken. But she called hers "A Cat Crying." "The sound of a cat crying is like the sound of the wind. It's like having your last piece of gum before getting your braces. It tastes like having to eat all of your string beans." [laughter] Well. Anyway, they. They write and write, with, with, with pleasure and
Studs Terkel I was thinking. Kenneth Koch hasn't heard any of these. Has he?
Jamie Gilson No. They are. They are they are very like the sort of thing he does. And as you know he does them in, in retirement homes. And
Studs Terkel I know he works with old people. That's interesting isn't it?
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel He works with older people, too, as well as the very young. Have you thought of that?
Jamie Gilson I have. I have. I just haven't had the the opportunity-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Jamie Gilson to
Studs Terkel Suppose you went into it, one of the old nursing homes.
Jamie Gilson I'm sure it would work, Studs.
Studs Terkel And, and there they were sitting there not doing much. Not doing much at all, really. And some of them tranquilized but many just sitting there. Suppose you came in with your enthusiasm and calling upon their. Not imagination.
Jamie Gilson Oh that's so much to remember.
Studs Terkel Memory!
Jamie Gilson Memory. Oh memory.
Jamie Gilson Memory better than
Studs Terkel Memory. Wow. I think it'd a combination.
Jamie Gilson Yes.
Studs Terkel in this Willmette school. Couldn't this be done? Couldn't you or people following you-
Jamie Gilson Oh.
Jamie Gilson Well, Studs, Studs. Indeed, indeed it is. The Illinois Arts Council has a, a Poet in the Schools Project which, which I would not be able to do, not being a poet. But they. They go in to schools. Teach poetry. I'm sure in much the same way. Many of them must-
Studs Terkel Think so? I hope so.
Jamie Gilson use the same kind of methods. They come in and read their poetry and, and have classes. It's fun. It works.
Studs Terkel It works. Well obviously it does. The. This is. It's very exhilarating. Mostly it's your own sense of wonder. I. It's the thing we talked about earlier. You come in there and you're somebody like they like us you're enthusiastic and you evoke their enthusiasm. But and you expect it. I think the fact you expect it,
Jamie Gilson We admire each other, I think, Studs.
Studs Terkel We're talkin' Jamie Gilson and the poetry that she brings forth and the children in these schools and also about her book which is, delightful one, "Harvey the Beer Can King." But Harvey is quite an interesting guy this Harvey. And I find a lot of our beer cans, too. And Lothrop are the publishers. And what else had to be said but perhaps read another one. Maybe close reading another poem. Anything else you feel like saying we haven't touched on.
Jamie Gilson Well I don't know Studs. Let's see if I can find something-
Jamie Gilson here.
Studs Terkel Then we'll close with this
Jamie Gilson All right. I'll do one by Karen [Nicestrum?] about spring.
Jamie Gilson This one also won a prize.
Jamie Gilson Karen's 12. Was 12 when she wrote
Jamie Gilson This was last year, I think. "Spring is like breaking out of a cocoon after being in one all winter. Spring is running in the rain barefoot. Spring is after the rain, swishing your feet in a mud puddle. Spring is getting a sunburn on the first day you go out. Spring is getting a spring cold after you just got rid of your winter cold. Spring is jumping on a new trampoline. Spring is sitting on your roof and reading. Spring is climbing a tree and scraping your knee. Spring is going through all the play of jacks without missing. Spring is being a bridesmaid at your cousin's wedding. Spring is new even though it's centuries old."
Studs Terkel That's one of the best descriptions of spring I have ever heard [laughter] [unintelligible] may call that "Spring Is."
Jamie Gilson "Spring Is." Indeed.
Studs Terkel Jamie Gilson and you are very definitely. Thank you very much.
