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Interview with City Lit cast members

BROADCAST: Dec. 29, 1982 | DURATION: 00:55:29

Synopsis

Discussing the play "A solo song for Doc" by James Allan MacPherson and interviewing cast members of City Lit, Joseph Moore, Chuck Smith and Ernest Perry.

Transcript

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Studs Terkel You know, someone suggested a book in which reminisce Pullman car porters, sleeping car porters and dining car waiters, those who are surviving today, and their skills, their crafts and their experiences in towns, particularly Southern towns, and how they spread the news [would? will?] be a remarkable piece of American history as yet unwritten. Now, James Alan McPherson, a Pulitzer Prize winner, has written a good number of stories. One has become a dramatized reading by City Lit, a very exciting theater in Chicago that does dramatized readings of classic stories. They did "Big Blonde" of Dorothy Parker, the most recent one was by James Alan McPherson and part of his experience, too. It's called, "A Solo Song for Doc", and it's about a dining car waiter, and two of the performers, the two performers, Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith. Ernest is the narrator, the younger guy, and Chuck Smith is Doc. They do this reading, it's very moving and it's good theater. It's also good history, too. They did it at the I.T.T. for a number of weeks, and I think they'll soon be remounting it and doing it again, we're lucky they're here today, but with them is a walking piece of history, Joseph Moore. For 40 years, and I know him, we've known each other for some time, for 40 years he was a sleeping car porter, and he's here to recount his experiences and we'll hear the readings from "A Solo Song for Doc", some of the readings by Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith. So the program in just a moment after this message. [Sound of railroad car] Joe Moore, what's your first reaction hearing that clackety-clack of those railroad wheels?

Joseph Moore It brings back memories, Studs, I just can't help it, but it brings it back. It's something that is in your bones, you know. You dream about it at night sometimes when you're in bed, you know, you think up, sometimes you wake up thinking you've missed your train and all that kind of stuff, you just can't get it out of your system, Studs.

Studs Terkel Forty years.

Joseph Moore It was 40 years.

Studs Terkel So you've been retired now for six years or

Joseph Moore so? Six years, yes.

Studs Terkel But it's still

Joseph Moore Oh yes, yes, yes. I still dream of it. My wife say, "What's wrong with you sometimes?" I can't get it out.

Studs Terkel So, why don't we just have some of the -- and your comments, as we hear Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith do some of the readings from "A Solo Song". Did you see that, by the way?

Joseph Moore Yes, I did.

Studs Terkel So how did you

Joseph Moore -- I enjoyed it.

Studs Terkel Did it strike you

Joseph Moore -- Reminiscent. Absolutely perfect.

Studs Terkel Now, that's about a dining car waiter. But the experiences, are they similar to that of the sleeping car porter?

Joseph Moore Yes, they are. Yes, they are. We were right there together.

Studs Terkel Yeah. One question before we hear some of the readings. A passenger train today, less and less and less we know, but in Chicago back when you were a young -- when you were a young sleeping car porter, I was told that Chicago, a thousand trains a day came in and out and changed.

Joseph Moore I wouldn't be surprised, Studs, because they had a -- if you'll just count the Union Station, the south end of the Union Station only, we had Pennsylvania trains leaving about almost every other hour. In the afternoon, two or three in the morning, and then not to mention the Burlington trains and then the Alton trains, the Abraham Lincoln and the Ann Rutledge were going to St. Louis. There were plenty of trains -- that's just on one side of the station.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore Not to mention the Milwaukee side, which is on the north end of the station. Now you had the northern, northwestern stations. I think there was five or six stations in Chicago where trains were

Studs Terkel Well, that is of course

Joseph Moore You think about it, competitively though. They were competitive.

Studs Terkel How about 20th Century?

Joseph Moore Oh, 20th Century, they had a regular makeup in their late--in the early, in the middle '20s and the early '30s was three trains, three sections, every day. Now, there were some days there was four and five sections. But the regular makeup was three sections.

Studs Terkel Did you ever work on the 20th Century?

Joseph Moore Oh, yes.

Studs Terkel You did.

Joseph Moore Yes, I pulled my first haul.

Studs Terkel Really?

Joseph Moore I cut my first haul, going to 20th Century

Studs Terkel -- I'm going to ask you, of course, I'm going to ask Joe Moore.

Joseph Moore I was a rookie.

Studs Terkel Let me tell Studs, let me tell

Joseph Moore you, Studs, let me tell you this. On the Century and the Broadway Limited, you had to have five years to work on that train as a Pullman porter. But I got tied up in Boston, and they had, Boston had a car that goes a round-trip from Boston to Chicago, and they put me on that car in Boston, that meant I had to take it to Chicago and bring it back to Boston. So a passenger asked me to wake him up and put him off at Englewood, which is 63rd Street, you know. And then somehow and another, I just about passed him by, but I got him off in, at time. I almost missed

Studs Terkel I want to ask you later on about your dreams, about, particularly about

Joseph Moore Fargo, North Dakota.

Studs Terkel Fargo, North Dakota, and also the many places that would -- [trum?] -- railroad stops, and what are we gonna hear, Ernest, now? From "A Solo Song for Doc". This is what? You are -- who are you?

Ernest Perry Well, I'm the last of the waiters' waiters who has been broken in by characters like Doc Craft and Sheik Beasley and Reverend Hendricks, and we're picking up the segment where we find out who Doc Craft really was, I mean, his real name and so forth.

Studs Terkel Yeah, Doc Craft, known as Doc, he was the old, he was your teacher.

Ernest Perry Right. Right.

Studs Terkel And you're telling a story about this great craftsman.

Ernest Perry That's it. Exactly.

Studs Terkel Whom they finally nailed.

Ernest Perry Right.

Studs Terkel And Chuck Smith is gonna be Doc Craft.

Chuck Smith Right.

Ernest Perry "His real name was Leroy Johnson, I think, but when Danny Jackson saw how cool and neat he was in his moves and how he handled the plates, well, he began to call him 'the Doctor.' Then the Sheik coming down from his high one day after missing lunch and dinner service, saw how Doc had taken over his station and collected fat tips by telling the passengers that the Sheik had had to get off the line because of a heart attack. Well, the Sheik liked that because he saw that Doc understood crackers, and how they liked nothing better than knowing that a Black man had died on the job giving them service. The Sheik was impressed, and he wasn't an easy man to impress, 'cause, well, he knew too much about life and had to stay high most of the time. But now when Reverend Hendricks, who always read his Bible before going to sleep, who heard what the Sheik had said, he knew it was important, because the Sheik only said something when it was important. Remembered it. And after he put his Bible back in his locker, he walked over to Doc's bunk and looked down at him. 'Mister Doctor Craft. Youngblood, Doctor Craft.'

Chuck Smith Yeah?

Ernest Perry 'Yeah. That's who you are.' Doc was over 65, and then had taken to drinking real hard when we was off, but he never touched a drop when we's on the own road. And he didn't talk much about himself. He didn't talk much about anything that wasn't related to the road, but when I tried to hip him once about the hustlers and how they's closing in on him, he just took another shot.

Chuck Smith I don't need no money. Nobody's jiving me! I'm jiving them! You know I can still pull in 100 in tips in one trip. I know this business!

Ernest Perry Yeah, I know, Doc, but how many more trips can you make before you have to stop?

Chuck Smith I ain't never gonna stop! Trips are all I know and I'll be making them as long as these trains haul people.

Ernest Perry But that's just it. They don't want to haul people anymore. Planes do that, and the big roads want freight now. Now look how they hire them youngbloods just for the busy season, so they won't get any seniority in the winter, and look how all them old-school waiters is dropping out. Well, they got the Sheik, Percy Fields just looked up and died before they got to him. They almost got Reverend Hendricks! Even Uncle T's going to retire, and they'll get us, too.

Chuck Smith Not me! I know the moves! This old fox can still dance with a tray, wait on four tables at the same time. I can still bait a queer. Make the old ladies tip big. Ain't no waiter better than me, and I know it.

Ernest Perry Well, sure, Doc, I know it too, but please save your money. I mean, don't be no dummy. Now there'll come a day, you just can't get up to go out, and they'll put you on the ground for good.' Doc looked at me like he had been shot.

Chuck Smith Who taught you the moves when you just a ragged-ass waiter?"

Ernest Perry Well, you did, Doc.

Chuck Smith Who's always the first man down the yard at train time? Who's there sitting in the car every 10th morning while the rest of your old heads are putting on your long johns?

Ernest Perry I couldn't say anything. He's right, and we both knew it.

Chuck Smith I have to go out. Going out is my whole life. I wait for that 10th morning. I ain't never missed a trip, and I don't mean to.

Ernest Perry What could I say to him, youngblood? What can I say to you? He had to go out, not for the money, it's in his blood. The Doctor climbed into the first waiter's bunk in his long johns, and I got into the second waiter's bunk under him and lay there. Well, I could hear him breathing. It was a hard sound. He wasn't well, and all of us

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Ernest Perry Don't mind Boone, Doc. Now, he a dead man, he just don't know it yet.

Chuck Smith We all are.

Ernest Perry Not you.

Chuck Smith What's the use? He's right. They'll get me in the

Ernest Perry Oh, but they ain't done it yet.

Chuck Smith They'll get me, and they know it, and I know it. I can even see it in old Krauss's eyes. He knows they're going to get me.

Ernest Perry Why don't you get you a woman?

Chuck Smith No, what can I do with a woman now that I ain't already done? Too much.

Ernest Perry If you on the ground. Well, being with one might not make it so bad.

Chuck Smith I hate women.

Ernest Perry You ever try fishing?

Chuck Smith No.

Ernest Perry You want to?

Chuck Smith [laughs] No!

Ernest Perry 'You can't keep drinking. Or maybe you could work in town in the commissary.' I could hear the big wheels rolling and clicking on the tracks, and I knew by the smooth we were moving, that we was almost out of the Dakota flatlands. Doc wasn't talking. 'Would you like that?' I thought he was asleep. 'Doc, would you like that?'

Chuck Smith Hell, no!

Ernest Perry You have to try something.

Chuck Smith I know.

Studs Terkel Let's hold that for a moment. Now we come to the next sequence. Now, we have something here that's very moving. This ring a bell with you, Joe Moore?

Joseph Moore Well, there's one thing I could say about these tips. I can truthfully say that only God and the waiter knows how much tips he makes, because he never tells the truth about it. If Doc said he makes a hundred dollars or so, well you know, I could question that easy. [all chuckle]

Studs Terkel Now, I was thinking about they're removing the young guy, the part Ernest Perry is playing, talking to Chuck Smith, the old artist waiter, he knows that time is almost up, it's been for a long time, and they want him to retire, isn't it? The company wants, they can't fire because of the union.

Joseph Moore Right.

Studs Terkel There's a dining car waiters union like--

Ernest Perry They

Studs Terkel A. Philip Randolph organized it.

Joseph Moore I know two porters that they were in such bad condition, I asked one one time, I said, "Do you want to die on this train?" He says "Yes." It was pitiful. They couldn't make him go then, because he could go 'til he's 70 or something, and then there was another one that ran on the Broadway. They went on strike and they put him, they had to pay him, so they ran him over to Colorado Springs and [made him?]. And he was sick. He had so many stripes on his arm that he would tear them off. You know? When you have a coat, coats were free.

Studs Terkel The stripes for what?

Joseph Moore Five years apiece.

Studs Terkel Ah!

Ernest Perry Oh,

Studs Terkel It's like a sergeant's stripes.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Ernest Perry Yeah.

Joseph Moore This guy was so embarrassed about the amount of stripes, you could see where he would tear them off, and leave about eight of them there

Studs Terkel or You

Joseph Moore He didn't want anybody to know how many years he had been there. That's the truth.

Studs Terkel Yeah, of course he was afraid they might start thinking about--

Joseph Moore Well, the company knew how many it was, but he knew the men on the trains would kid him.

Ernest Perry Yeah.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore About his age.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore So I said to him, I said, "Now, you were" -- he had the finest car on the Broadway, a imperial-type car: two drawing rooms, four double bedrooms, and it's a couple of single rooms. So I said, "What's with your sickness?" "Yes, I am sick." "Well, why you don't get your retire" -- he said, "Yes, I can retire." I said, "Why don't you?" "I don't want to retire, I want to railroad."

Studs Terkel This is just like "Solo

Joseph Moore He died on the Broadway. He died on the Broadway.

Studs Terkel What about -- this comes up often, you know, things have cha-- oh, the, remember when the young guy, Youngblood, is talking to Doc and he's saying you know, he knew more and more, less and less trains, more and more, the companies are discouraging passenger trains. So it could -- when did you see it coming, the end of the passenger train to a great extent?

Joseph Moore Well, Studs, [silver?] there began right after during the war to me. The ticket agents would entice people to go on a plane for some reason, I don't know. I don't know why they did that.

Studs Terkel Well, because they made more dough handling

Joseph Moore Something, that's right, there's something about

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore So after the war they

Studs Terkel Ticket a-- pardon me, ticket agents would encourage someone who wanted to travel by train to take a plane?

Joseph Moore That's right. Down in Miami and different places. Evidently they were -- somebody was paying them off or something, they just couldn't see beyond

Studs Terkel You know, I think it was more than that.

Joseph Moore It's something, it was something there. So, finally we had single railroads, two railroads were going to the same destination. The ticket agent would sell all the tickets on one railroad and discourage the people from going on the other one. That kind of stuff, but we couldn't understand that. [It was there above us?]. But that's what happened, and first thing you know, the railroads began to close up. Close down and then

Studs Terkel -- Isn't that amazing, that's one of things isn't it?

Joseph Moore Yeah.

Studs Terkel I know that, that Chuck and, and Ernest, you, you can also comment, too,

Chuck Smith Right. Well, the one thing that struck me was that, the fact that the train was Doc's whole life. You know, "Going out is my whole life." And he didn't have any other outside interests other than on the train. And that always, that struck me as -- I can relate to that because I feel the same way about theater. I love theater, I don't -- I never intend to retire, you know, retirement is -- that's [unintelligible].

Ernest Perry Die right on the stage.

Chuck Smith Right, die on the stage.

Studs Terkel Pride, having to, pride in

Chuck Smith Pride in

Studs Terkel your Skill.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Joseph Moore I'm going to tell you something that'll -- kind of pathetic. There was two incidents in the Pullman office at Union Station. One concerned a Pullman porter and one concerned a Pullman conductor. Now, when a porter -- a conductor got a certain age, half the time, they could force him to retire. The porter broke down and cried like a baby. I took him off to the side and I said, "Don't cry." I said, "You'll find out that you can make it and live as well off in your retirement as you do working." Later on, he came up and told me that, "Joe, you told me right." But the Pullman conductor, as pitiful as it sounds, it's true, he started crying in that office and he told the officials what a good conductor he was and how much he had written up porters, how hard he was, "I've done everything you've asked me to do, now you're going to put me on the street."

Studs Terkel How much he had written up

Joseph Moore That's right! That's right.

Studs Terkel What do you mean by writing them up?

Joseph Moore Bringing them in on the carpet.

Studs Terkel Oh, really.

Joseph Moore For incidental things.

Studs Terkel He's, how loyal he was in informing on

Joseph Moore Well, we knew he was rotten, but now he declared himself right there in the office -- I heard, I was standing by the gate. Now, he ran to St. Louis on the Alton. He stayed on

Studs Terkel I got to ask you, too, as you go along, about the relationship of you and the patrons and attitudes, we've got to talk about that, and also the matter how the -- by the way, was there a connection between, did the dining car porters and the dining -- you know, the dining car waiters and Pullman car porters -- associate together?

Joseph Moore No.

Studs Terkel They didn't?

Joseph Moore No.

Studs Terkel That's in-- well, tell me about that.

Ernest Perry It's pitiful.

Joseph Moore Now, there were some dining car waiters that were very nice to us. Very ni-- and then the fellows on the north end, I say north end like the Great Northern and Northern Pacific, I chose the Northern Pacific because we got a better treatment there than we did on the Great Northern. They hated to wait on us. They would -- some of them would want to take tips away from us, demand us to tip them. And that kind of stuff. You wouldn't believe this, Studs, but it's true. Now, finally, there was animosity. See, they worked for the railroad and we worked for the Pullman Company.

Chuck Smith

Joseph Moore You know, someone suggested a book in which reminisce Pullman car porters, sleeping car porters and dining car waiters, those who are surviving today, and their skills, their crafts and their experiences in towns, particularly Southern towns, and how they spread the news [would? will?] be a remarkable piece of American history as yet unwritten. Now, James Alan McPherson, a Pulitzer Prize winner, has written a good number of stories. One has become a dramatized reading by City Lit, a very exciting theater in Chicago that does dramatized readings of classic stories. They did "Big Blonde" of Dorothy Parker, the most recent one was by James Alan McPherson and part of his experience, too. It's called, "A Solo Song for Doc", and it's about a dining car waiter, and two of the performers, the two performers, Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith. Ernest is the narrator, the younger guy, and Chuck Smith is Doc. They do this reading, it's very moving and it's good theater. It's also good history, too. They did it at the I.T.T. for a number of weeks, and I think they'll soon be remounting it and doing it again, we're lucky they're here today, but with them is a walking piece of history, Joseph Moore. For 40 years, and I know him, we've known each other for some time, for 40 years he was a sleeping car porter, and he's here to recount his experiences and we'll hear the readings from "A Solo Song for Doc", some of the readings by Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith. So the program in just a moment after this message. [Sound of railroad car] Joe Moore, what's your first reaction hearing that clackety-clack of those railroad wheels? It brings back memories, Studs, I just can't help it, but it brings it back. It's something that is in your bones, you know. You dream about it at night sometimes when you're in bed, you know, you think up, sometimes you wake up thinking you've missed your train and all that kind of stuff, you just can't get it out of your system, Studs. Forty years. It was 40 years. So you've been retired now for six years or so? Six years, yes. But it's still with Oh yes, yes, yes. I still dream of it. My wife say, "What's wrong with you sometimes?" I can't get it out. So, why don't we just have some of the -- and your comments, as we hear Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith do some of the readings from "A Solo Song". Did you see that, by the way? Yes, I did. So how did you -- I enjoyed it. I Did it strike you -- Reminiscent. Absolutely perfect. Now, that's about a dining car waiter. But the experiences, are they similar to that of the sleeping car porter? Yes, they are. Yes, they are. We were right there together. Yeah. One question before we hear some of the readings. A passenger train today, less and less and less we know, but in Chicago back when you were a young -- when you were a young sleeping car porter, I was told that Chicago, a thousand trains a day came in and out and changed. I wouldn't be surprised, Studs, because they had a -- if you'll just count the Union Station, the south end of the Union Station only, we had Pennsylvania trains leaving about almost every other hour. In the afternoon, two or three in the morning, and then not to mention the Burlington trains and then the Alton trains, the Abraham Lincoln and the Ann Rutledge were going to St. Louis. There were plenty of trains -- that's just on one side of the station. Yeah. Not to mention the Milwaukee side, which is on the north end of the station. Now you had the northern, northwestern stations. I think there was five or six stations in Chicago where trains were leaving. Well, that is of course -- You think about it, competitively though. They were competitive. How about 20th Century? Oh, 20th Century, they had a regular makeup in their late--in the early, in the middle '20s and the early '30s was three trains, three sections, every day. Now, there were some days there was four and five sections. But the regular makeup was three sections. Did you ever work on the 20th Century? Oh, yes. You did. Yes, I pulled my first haul. Really? I cut my first haul, going to 20th Century -- I'm going to ask you, of course, I'm going to ask Joe Moore. I was a rookie. Let me tell you, Studs, let me tell you this. On the Century and the Broadway Limited, you had to have five years to work on that train as a Pullman porter. But I got tied up in Boston, and they had, Boston had a car that goes a round-trip from Boston to Chicago, and they put me on that car in Boston, that meant I had to take it to Chicago and bring it back to Boston. So a passenger asked me to wake him up and put him off at Englewood, which is 63rd Street, you know. And then somehow and another, I just about passed him by, but I got him off in, at time. I almost missed it. I want to ask you later on about your dreams, about, particularly about -- Fargo, North Dakota. Fargo, North Dakota, and also the many places that would -- [trum?] -- railroad stops, and what are we gonna hear, Ernest, now? From "A Solo Song for Doc". This is what? You are -- who are you? Well, I'm the last of the waiters' waiters who has been broken in by characters like Doc Craft and Sheik Beasley and Reverend Hendricks, and we're picking up the segment where we find out who Doc Craft really was, I mean, his real name and so forth. Yeah, Doc Craft, known as Doc, he was the old, he was your teacher. Right. Right. And you're telling a story about this great craftsman. That's it. Exactly. Whom they finally nailed. Right. And Chuck Smith is gonna be Doc Craft. Right. "His real name was Leroy Johnson, I think, but when Danny Jackson saw how cool and neat he was in his moves and how he handled the plates, well, he began to call him 'the Doctor.' Then the Sheik coming down from his high one day after missing lunch and dinner service, saw how Doc had taken over his station and collected fat tips by telling the passengers that the Sheik had had to get off the line because of a heart attack. Well, the Sheik liked that because he saw that Doc understood crackers, and how they liked nothing better than knowing that a Black man had died on the job giving them service. The Sheik was impressed, and he wasn't an easy man to impress, 'cause, well, he knew too much about life and had to stay high most of the time. But now when Reverend Hendricks, who always read his Bible before going to sleep, who heard what the Sheik had said, he knew it was important, because the Sheik only said something when it was important. Remembered it. And after he put his Bible back in his locker, he walked over to Doc's bunk and looked down at him. 'Mister Doctor Craft. Youngblood, Doctor Craft.' Yeah? 'Yeah. That's who you are.' Doc was over 65, and then had taken to drinking real hard when we was off, but he never touched a drop when we's on the own road. And he didn't talk much about himself. He didn't talk much about anything that wasn't related to the road, but when I tried to hip him once about the hustlers and how they's closing in on him, he just took another shot. I don't need no money. Nobody's jiving me! I'm jiving them! You know I can still pull in 100 in tips in one trip. I know this business! Yeah, I know, Doc, but how many more trips can you make before you have to stop? I ain't never gonna stop! Trips are all I know and I'll be making them as long as these trains haul people. But that's just it. They don't want to haul people anymore. Planes do that, and the big roads want freight now. Now look how they hire them youngbloods just for the busy season, so they won't get any seniority in the winter, and look how all them old-school waiters is dropping out. Well, they got the Sheik, Percy Fields just looked up and died before they got to him. They almost got Reverend Hendricks! Even Uncle T's going to retire, and they'll get us, too. Not me! I know the moves! This old fox can still dance with a tray, wait on four tables at the same time. I can still bait a queer. Make the old ladies tip big. Ain't no waiter better than me, and I know it. Well, sure, Doc, I know it too, but please save your money. I mean, don't be no dummy. Now there'll come a day, you just can't get up to go out, and they'll put you on the ground for good.' Doc looked at me like he had been shot. Who taught you the moves when you just a ragged-ass waiter?" Well, you did, Doc. Who's always the first man down the yard at train time? Who's there sitting in the car every 10th morning while the rest of your old heads are putting on your long johns? I couldn't say anything. He's right, and we both knew it. I have to go out. Going out is my whole life. I wait for that 10th morning. I ain't never missed a trip, and I don't mean to. What could I say to him, youngblood? What can I say to you? He had to go out, not for the money, it's in his blood. The Doctor climbed into the first waiter's bunk in his long johns, and I got into the second waiter's bunk under him and lay there. Well, I could hear him breathing. It was a hard sound. He wasn't well, and all of us knew Yeah. Don't mind Boone, Doc. Now, he a dead man, he just don't know it yet. We all are. Not you. What's the use? He's right. They'll get me in the end. Oh, but they ain't done it yet. They'll get me, and they know it, and I know it. I can even see it in old Krauss's eyes. He knows they're going to get me. Why don't you get you a woman? No, what can I do with a woman now that I ain't already done? Too much. If you on the ground. Well, being with one might not make it so bad. I hate women. You ever try fishing? No. You want to? [laughs] No! 'You can't keep drinking. Or maybe you could work in town in the commissary.' I could hear the big wheels rolling and clicking on the tracks, and I knew by the smooth we were moving, that we was almost out of the Dakota flatlands. Doc wasn't talking. 'Would you like that?' I thought he was asleep. 'Doc, would you like that?' Hell, no! You have to try something. I know. Let's hold that for a moment. Now we come to the next sequence. Now, we have something here that's very moving. This ring a bell with you, Joe Moore? Well, there's one thing I could say about these tips. I can truthfully say that only God and the waiter knows how much tips he makes, because he never tells the truth about it. If Doc said he makes a hundred dollars or so, well you know, I could question that easy. [all chuckle] Now, I was thinking about they're removing the young guy, the part Ernest Perry is playing, talking to Chuck Smith, the old artist waiter, he knows that time is almost up, it's been for a long time, and they want him to retire, isn't it? The company wants, they can't fire because of the union. Right. There's a dining car waiters union like-- They A. Philip Randolph organized it. I know two porters that they were in such bad condition, I asked one one time, I said, "Do you want to die on this train?" He says "Yes." It was pitiful. They couldn't make him go then, because he could go 'til he's 70 or something, and then there was another one that ran on the Broadway. They went on strike and they put him, they had to pay him, so they ran him over to Colorado Springs and [made him?]. And he was sick. He had so many stripes on his arm that he would tear them off. You know? When you have a coat, coats were free. The stripes for what? Five years apiece. Ah! Oh, It's like a sergeant's stripes. Yeah. Yeah. This guy was so embarrassed about the amount of stripes, you could see where he would tear them off, and leave about eight of them there or You He didn't want anybody to know how many years he had been there. That's the truth. Yeah, of course he was afraid they might start thinking about-- Well, the company knew how many it was, but he knew the men on the trains would kid him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. About his age. Yeah. So I said to him, I said, "Now, you were" -- he had the finest car on the Broadway, a imperial-type car: two drawing rooms, four double bedrooms, and it's a couple of single rooms. So I said, "What's with your sickness?" "Yes, I am sick." "Well, why you don't get your retire" -- he said, "Yes, I can retire." I said, "Why don't you?" "I don't want to retire, I want to railroad." This is just like "Solo He died on the Broadway. He died on the Broadway. What about -- this comes up often, you know, things have cha-- oh, the, remember when the young guy, Youngblood, is talking to Doc and he's saying you know, he knew more and more, less and less trains, more and more, the companies are discouraging passenger trains. So it could -- when did you see it coming, the end of the passenger train to a great extent? Well, Studs, [silver?] there began right after during the war to me. The ticket agents would entice people to go on a plane for some reason, I don't know. I don't know why they did that. Well, because they made more dough handling cargo. Something, that's right, there's something about that. Yeah. So after the war they -- Ticket a-- pardon me, ticket agents would encourage someone who wanted to travel by train to take a plane? That's right. Down in Miami and different places. Evidently they were -- somebody was paying them off or something, they just couldn't see beyond their You know, I think it was more than that. It's something, it was something there. So, finally we had single railroads, two railroads were going to the same destination. The ticket agent would sell all the tickets on one railroad and discourage the people from going on the other one. That kind of stuff, but we couldn't understand that. [It was there above us?]. But that's what happened, and first thing you know, the railroads began to close up. Close down and then -- Isn't that amazing, that's one of things isn't it? Yeah. I know that, that Chuck and, and Ernest, you, you can also comment, too, if Right. Well, the one thing that struck me was that, the fact that the train was Doc's whole life. You know, "Going out is my whole life." And he didn't have any other outside interests other than on the train. And that always, that struck me as -- I can relate to that because I feel the same way about theater. I love theater, I don't -- I never intend to retire, you know, retirement is -- that's [unintelligible]. Die right on the stage. Right, die on the stage. Pride, having to, pride in -- Pride in your Skill. Yeah. I'm going to tell you something that'll -- kind of pathetic. There was two incidents in the Pullman office at Union Station. One concerned a Pullman porter and one concerned a Pullman conductor. Now, when a porter -- a conductor got a certain age, half the time, they could force him to retire. The porter broke down and cried like a baby. I took him off to the side and I said, "Don't cry." I said, "You'll find out that you can make it and live as well off in your retirement as you do working." Later on, he came up and told me that, "Joe, you told me right." But the Pullman conductor, as pitiful as it sounds, it's true, he started crying in that office and he told the officials what a good conductor he was and how much he had written up porters, how hard he was, "I've done everything you've asked me to do, now you're going to put me on the street." How much he had written up -- That's right! That's right. What do you mean by writing them up? Bringing them in on the carpet. Oh, really. For incidental things. He's, how loyal he was in informing on his Well, we knew he was rotten, but now he declared himself right there in the office -- I heard, I was standing by the gate. Now, he ran to St. Louis on the Alton. He stayed on that I got to ask you, too, as you go along, about the relationship of you and the patrons and attitudes, we've got to talk about that, and also the matter how the -- by the way, was there a connection between, did the dining car porters and the dining -- you know, the dining car waiters and Pullman car porters -- associate together? No. They didn't? No. That's in-- well, tell me about that. It's pitiful. Now, there were some dining car waiters that were very nice to us. Very ni-- and then the fellows on the north end, I say north end like the Great Northern and Northern Pacific, I chose the Northern Pacific because we got a better treatment there than we did on the Great Northern. They hated to wait on us. They would -- some of them would want to take tips away from us, demand us to tip them. And that kind of stuff. You wouldn't believe this, Studs, but it's true. Now, finally, there was animosity. See, they worked for the railroad and we worked for the Pullman Company. Ohhh. See?

Studs Terkel Oh, is that it?

Joseph Moore It was a different set-up. And it was just, it was

Studs Terkel Oh, you worked for the Pullman Company, not the railroad.

Joseph Moore Not the railroad. But we were subjected to anything the railroad did to us.

Studs Terkel But what is disheartening is the fact that the waiters

Joseph Moore That's right.

Studs Terkel Looked down upon the

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Studs Terkel That's int-- I thought they'd never -- toward the end was there not a

Joseph Moore Well, towards the end we got a meal -- we had to pay for our meals, too, you know.

Studs Terkel You did?

Joseph Moore Yeah.

Chuck Smith Built-in caste system.

Ernest Perry Yeah, built-in caste system.

Joseph Moore But when Amtrak took over, finally we got our meals free, but as little better get to understanding there, but as long as we had to pay for them, it was, it was pitiful. But now, as I say, there was some fellas that was nice to us. There were some Pullman conductors that was a very nice to

Ernest Perry Doc Craft.

Joseph Moore Very nice.

Studs Terkel I would start

Joseph Moore That type!

Studs Terkel Yeah, Doc was.

Joseph Moore That type. They were.

Studs Terkel But the one connecting link in both cases, though there was this demarcation, is there was that skill. Doc had it as a waiter. You no doubt had it as a porter.

Joseph Moore Yeah.

Studs Terkel We haven't asked about the -- what were the hours? Oh, the hours?

Joseph Moore We worked long hours. The sleeping car porters worked long hours. Our salary was a little more, but when you consider what we had to pay, for our meals on the train and our lodging on the other end, it's pitiful.

Studs Terkel By the time you joined, you became a porter, A. Philip Randolph had already entered the picture.

Joseph Moore Yes, yes.

Studs Terkel The Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters was organized. And so that helped, no doubt it did.

Joseph Moore Oh yes, yes. I was rather unpopular when I got on.

Studs Terkel Why was that?

Joseph Moore The vice president of Pullman Company recommended me to the job. I wasn't even investigated.

Ernest Perry No.

Joseph Moore See? Because I come with a good person, Mr. Greenlaw, he was a jewel. And having been recommended by him, the man was glad to hire me, because he thought a lot of Mr. Greenlaw, and so I didn't have the trouble that a lot of people had. I was told in advance by his wife how to act and what to do, you know, and things went a little smooth for me. But with other fellas, it was a little hard. "Don't bother him, he's Mr. Greenlaw's boy." They -- you understand what it was back in those days. You been

Studs Terkel How was it with the passengers? You know.

Joseph Moore Passengers were very nice to us. Especially if you know, you had to be a professional. You had to respond nicely, but the passengers as a rule were very nice.

Studs Terkel The hours. We'll come

Joseph Moore The hours -- were for -- this, well, you went to work in the, in the morning like at eight o'clock. Or two, two p.m. Your salary didn't start 'til after midnight.

Studs Terkel Oh, was that it?

Joseph Moore That's when I first

Studs Terkel So that was for free then.

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah, that's why Randolph got such a start. It took him a long time to get this thing started. But we eventually, after October the first, 1937, our time started when we started, not after midnight, not after -- you know. P.M. time didn't mean a thing, you could work from 1:00 PM, to 11:59, you didn't get a penny for it.

Studs Terkel You had to bank on tips to a great extent.

Joseph Moore I had what?

Studs Terkel You had to depend on tips.

Joseph Moore Yeah, very much so, very much so, Studs, yeah.

Studs Terkel So then you had to -- let's take a slight, but we're going to come back to more readings from "A Solo Song for Doc", and more of your own thoughts, too, Ernest, that you've heard from older people, and Chuck. And we're talking, Joseph Moore is talking, who was for 40 years the wa-- they're going to ask about that, that restlessness, too, about certain stops that were here. "A Solo Song for Doc", written by, one of the short stories by James Alan McPherson who has won the Pulitzer Prize here, a marvelous writer of short stories. I think it was his own experience, too, for a short time, wasn't it, as a dining car waiter?

Ernest Perry That's

Chuck Smith He was actually Youngblood, who the narrator is speaking.

Studs Terkel He's Youngblood.

Ernest Perry Right.

Chuck Smith Right.

Studs Terkel Pretty much. Let's take a slight pause now and we'll resume with more of the reflections of Joseph Moore and the readings of Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith as Youngblood and Doc. So resuming, let's assume we hear the, we hear that clickety-clack of the wheels of a train and this sequence is -- well, why don't you set the scene, Ernest?

Ernest Perry All right. This is the sequence where the last of the waiters' waiters explaining to the youngblood how he came to the railroad, and what the experiences were for him as he was, you know, brought in to be a dining car waiter. "I came to the road away from the war. Now, that was after '41, when people went home looking for Japs under their bed every night. I didn't want to fight, because there was no money in it, and I didn't want go overseas to work in a kitchen. Big war was on, a lot of soldiers crossed the country to get to it. And as long as a Black man fed him on the trains, he didn't have to go to that war. I could've got a job in a Chicago factory, but there's more money on the road, and it's safer. After a while it got into your blood so that you couldn't leave it for anything. The road got into my blood the way it gets into everybody's. For the way going to war got into the blood of the redneck farm boys and them crazy Polacks from Chicago. It was all right for them to go to the war. They was young, stupid, and they died that way. But I played it smart. I was almost 35, and why, I didn't want to go, but I took them and I fed them and I gave them good times on they way to the war, and for that I did not have to go. Now, there's plenty of money here, going 'round in them days, Youngblood, and them soldiers had plenty money and were not afraid to spend it all before they got to they ships on the coast, and we gave them ways to spend it on the trains."

Studs Terkel Yeah. So there was a period. Now we come to the war. That was a big turning point, wasn't it, World War Two?

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we -- hauled a lot of people during the war, and plenty of soldiers. And incidentally, I didn't go to war because I had a very unusual commanding officer in the National Guard, a great lawyer, [turn the name of?] Theophilus Mann, you probably heard of him, Studs. Well, I was hauling soldiers, training commanders and so forth, so he gave me a, what do you call it when you're extended? Give you a

Chuck Smith Oh, yeah. A

Ernest Perry -- Deferred, deferred.

Joseph Moore Right. He gave me a deferment because he said, "We need you to haul our soldiers, Joe, but when you get through, you come back, because every outfit needs a man like you." It was very

Studs Terkel You know, the trains, I remember, you know, the trains were just jam-packed.

Joseph Moore It was, yes, yes.

Studs Terkel You know with soldiers and soldiers' wives and kids, you know, as they're going from one basic training center or one camp to another. But that's when it no -- after the war is when it started to change to

Joseph Moore -- Yeah, definitely changed after the war.

Studs Terkel Yeah. What of -- [you had to have?] attitudes, come to the porter a moment, I think maybe even less with the waiter -- there were stories that -- there was a patronizing attitude on the part of the -- they'd call you -- there was a stories, you were always called by one name, they never knew your name.

Joseph Moore George.

Studs Terkel George.

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah, yeah. That finally ran out, there's an organization in New England that started an organ-- started a club called the "Prevention of Calling for -- Calling Sleeping Car Porters George", and they had a lot of write-ups in the "Times" magazine, in there "Newsweek", and evidently, it did, it did something because it finally faded out. They just didn't want people to do that, they said it was a disgrace, for the type of service that this man gives, and this commentator, Floyd Gibbons, you know the man with

Studs Terkel Patch over

Joseph Moore Yeah. He wrote a great article about that, wonderful article about it, I wished I had cut it out because it was, it was a masterpiece. Said there is no greater servant than a Pullman porter other than a servant in your home. He puts you to sleep, he protects your children, your wives, your money. He said, "What else can you ask from a servant? And you go around and call him out of his name with 'George.' Let's stop that, put a stop to it, and so

Studs Terkel I'm thinking

Joseph Moore They got the message!

Chuck Smith You mentioned that they used to, there was this one guy used to write the porters up or the, the, at -- in the story there's a, there's a waiter called -- I mean, not a waiter, but a inspector called Jerry.

Joseph Moore Yeah.

Chuck Smith The 'unexpected inspector,' he was played by Vince [Farburito?]. And, does -- did that guy really exist, those type of guys who would come on

Joseph Moore -- Oh,

Chuck Smith And look for

Joseph Moore They would write prevarications, and it was against us, it was against us wholeheartedly, and Philip Randolph, they wouldn't appear against us at a hearing. So Philip Randolph finally took it to the board and won that anyone who writes up a porter, he has got to show at a hearing, and the engineers' organization and the conductors' organization had been trying for years to get that and couldn't. So when he won that case, telegrams came from Cleveland, everywhere, congratulate him as something they'd been wanting.

Chuck Smith Great.

Joseph Moore The write-ups stopped.

Studs Terkel See, one of the--see, you mentioned that conductor who was so sad when they, when they finally put him out to pasture, he says, "Look, I used to report on these guys regularly," see, you'd be spied on a great

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Studs Terkel Now, in one of the key scenes in the, in the play

Chuck Smith -- In the

Studs Terkel In the reading of "A Solo Song for Doc" is, when this guy, who's fairly sympathetic, but he's just following

All Just doing his job.

Studs Terkel And of course, they gotta -- he wants to trap Doc, isn't it? That was -- there were new books, is that it? Why don't you talk about the book?

Chuck Smith There was this book of rules that came out, and every, every part of the service had to be done according to the book, anything

Joseph Moore The Bible.

Chuck Smith The Bible. That's right, that's what they call it in the play, and everything -- the table setting had to be exactly right. And when you serve coffee or tea or whatever you serve, there had to be a certain way. Now, in the beginning they had to write the book according to the way that the waiters served.

Ernest Perry That's what makes it ironic, there would have been no Black book if they hadn't observed the waiters and what they were doing and then put that together. But I mean, by the waiters knowing the service, they couldn't, you know, really touch him, so they began to change the rules.

Chuck Smith Making little subtle changes.

Ernest Perry Right, yeah.

Chuck Smith And for an old guy, it was, it was, it was hard, it was hard for him to make those, the changes.

Studs Terkel It's a very, it's a very dramatic moment there. Have you, have got that as part of your readings here?

Chuck Smith Well, it'd be kind of hard to do it without Vince.

Studs Terkel Well, I'll do it.

All [Laughter]

Ernest Perry Very good.

Chuck Smith Okay.

Studs Terkel I was thinking about, no, unless you have a scene before that, don't you? Well, why don't you do, what's the scene you have in mind for now?

Ernest Perry Well, that was concerning the owner when he's, the last of the waiters' waiters is giving the youngblood an historical rundown. He refers to the picture at the end of the car and he explains about the evolution of the railroad.

Studs Terkel Yeah. That's good.

Ernest Perry How the waiters came in

Studs Terkel By the way, the waiters' waiter, Doc was known as the waiters' waiter, wasn't he? He was the one.

Chuck Smith He was a waiters' waiter. That was a, the class of waiters that

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Chuck Smith That was untouchable. They were the best, they

Studs Terkel They were the class.

Chuck Smith Right. They were the waiters' waiters. You could be a waiter, but

Studs Terkel Was he head waiter

Ernest Perry He was the head waiter. He was the number one waiter.

Joseph Moore He was Geechee Smith on the Empire Builder.

Chuck Smith Yeah, is that it?

Joseph Moore You

Ernest Perry Geechee Smith.

Studs Terkel Geechee Smith.

Joseph Moore Yeah, he worked with Beasley.

Studs Terkel Was he, was he that -- Geechee Smith was like Doc Craft.

Ernest Perry Doc

Chuck Smith We met a guy

Studs Terkel -- On the Empire Builder.

Joseph Moore Yeah, this

Chuck Smith We met a guy, we met a guy who actually knew these guys. Sheik Beasley and Doc [Creek?]. Oh, yeah.

All [All talking]

Studs Terkel By the way, some of these guys, become legendary names, didn't they?

Chuck Smith Right.

Studs Terkel I mean, the word about them spread.

Joseph Moore Beasley was a pretty boy, a very good-looking

Studs Terkel Yeah?

Joseph Moore Yes, he was. Yes, he was. He was half-Indian and Negro, you know.

Ernest Perry Yes.

Joseph Moore He's very good-looking.

Studs Terkel But certain ones, you say were the Empire

Joseph Moore The Empire

Studs Terkel Where did that go, the Empire

Joseph Moore Chicago-Seattle. We had twin cities Minneapolis-St. Paul; St. Paul, Minneapolis, Fargo; Grand Forks, Devils Lake, and right on across to Minot, Whitefish, Montana; Spokane up to Wenatchee, Seattle, through that Cascade

Studs Terkel I like the way Joe Moore calls out those names.

Ernest Perry Right, right.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Studs Terkel What was the train to New Orleans?

Joseph Moore That was the Panama Limited.

Studs Terkel Panama Limited.

Joseph Moore Panama Limited. The Illinois Central operated it.

Studs Terkel The Illinois Central. And did these trains in the dining cars also have different kinds of food for different regions, too, I wonder? I think they did, you know.

Joseph Moore Well, that's a possibility because on the Great Northern they had a regular fish hatchery, where they used to catch the trout.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore We'd pick it up around Sandpoint and -- Sandpoint, Idaho. Yeah.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore A little bit before we got to Sandpoint. And different things, and on the Panama they had different meals.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Joseph Moore And

Studs Terkel And I'll ask you about the relationship of the porters and the dining car waiters when they've entered Black communities in the South, where you stopped, that's for later. Ernest, you, you were going to read about the, about the owner, of

Ernest Perry Right, right. "'Now look at that big picture at the end of the car, Youngblood. That's the man who built this road. He's in your history books, and he's probably in that big black Bible you read. Now, he was a great man. He hated people. He didn't want to feed them, but the government said he had to. He didn't want to hire me, but he needed me to feed the people. I know this, Youngblood. And that is why that book is written for you. And that is why I have never read it. And that's why you get nervous and jump up to polish the pepper and salt shakers every time word come down along the line an inspector's getting on at the next stop. And that's why you warm toast covers for every cheap old lady who wants her coffee and toast and good service for 65 cents and a dime tip. Well, you know that he only needs you for the summer. The man uses you, but he doesn't need you. But me, he needs for the winter when you're gone, and to teach you something in the summer about this business that you can't get from that big black book. He needs me, and he knows it, and I know it. That's why I'm sitting here taking my time when, well, there's tables to be cleaned and linen to be changed, and silver to be washed and polished. He needs me to die. And that's why I'm taking my time. I know it, and I'll take this service with me when I die, just like the Sheik did, like Percy Fields, and like Doc.'"

Studs Terkel Yeah, so he's telling about why the -- that's interesting. The government insisted you got to feed the passengers.

All [Murmuring]

Studs Terkel So it became a government

Joseph Moore That's right, yeah. You see, these railroads would not have you eating a -- these snack cars and so forth at night. Now. But that's a government law. If the people on a train they stay up so late, you got to have something for them to eat.

Chuck Smith So if it wasn't for the government, they probably wouldn't, have never been the porters and the waiters, and this part of history would never have been.

Studs Terkel We haven't talked about, I've heard this often, that when the guy came off a train in a community somewhere, the porter, and that was true with the waiter, the waiter also had the pants with the white stripe, didn't he? The blue pants? You know

Chuck Smith I think that, the waiters, the waiters had white. They wore all white.

Studs Terkel So when he got off the train, the Pullman, you still -- had the uniform.

Joseph Moore The uniform, but we'd pull it off.

Studs Terkel Yeah, did you?

Joseph Moore Under civilian clothes. Some guys would go to the hotel in their uniform, and would carry their coat in their arm. But the company didn't want that. They didn't want that.

Studs Terkel But I thought the trousers with the white stripe?

Joseph Moore That was a different type of Pull-- of dining car uniforms, different railroads had different uniforms.

Studs Terkel No, I meant the porters.

Joseph Moore No, we didn't have

Studs Terkel Didn't have that. What happened when you came to a town? How were you regarded?

Joseph Moore Well, as a rule the dining car waiters would go to one place and we'd go another. We didn't stay in the same hotel.

Studs Terkel Still that separation.

Joseph Moore Oh, yeah. See, the railroad would pay for them to stay in a hotel.

Studs Terkel Pullman paid for

Joseph Moore No, no. The Pullman Company didn't. We went to the cheapest hotel we could go to. So everybody as a rule went to the same hotel. See, we'd get a break. But the dining car company, the railroad, which owns the dining car, provided a place for the waiters. So they went to that hotel. We didn't go there.

Studs Terkel You were on your own.

Joseph Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel But what about the story I heard about how news would reach people in southern and smaller towns where the train stopped? News they wouldn't get, but the people off the train. The sleeping car porters bring them back "The Chicago Defender"

Joseph Moore Mouth to mouth, that's the way

Studs Terkel Is that

Joseph Moore That's the way it would go. That's in essence, that's what it was. We carried something outrageous, or something happened here, we'd get off the train and tell it. And then as we carried on down the line, and this thing would follow you right on down, we'd tell it to this porter who relieved us or this railroad train porter, we would put it close together with them, you could pass it on down the line, because they wouldn't go the full distance. They would get off

Studs Terkel It would pass from mouth to mouth. Grapevine.

Joseph Moore Yeah. Grapevine's

Studs Terkel But it would come from the men off the train.

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah. And then we would meet sometime like in a dormitory. In the [new?] sections, we'd all like from New Orleans. In New Orleans, we'd come from Chicago, New York, Texas, we'd go there to our dormitory when we tell things that happened, and then they'd take them back to their hometowns.

Studs Terkel What was the story you heard, Ernest, about news?

Ernest Perry Well, I used to wonder about how there was communication and how it could travel so rapidly. I was studying that period when Jack Johnson had won the heavyweight championship back in 1910, and I wonder how could so many people, Black people across the country, have gotten the words so quick when there was no telephone or radio to speak of, and it was via the Pullman car porters and dining car waiters that carried the word throughout all parts of the country, you know, and it's almost like they knew instantaneously what had happened out there in Las Vegas.

Studs Terkel The word had spread.

Ernest Perry Incredible.

Studs Terkel They were messengers as well.

Ernest Perry Replaced the talking drum.

Chuck Smith And they were looked up

Studs Terkel In place of the talking drum.

Ernest Perry Right.

Chuck Smith In the community where I grew up, they were looked up to, and when someone or so, "Well, he's, he works on the road." There was always a smile on his face.

All [Talking]

Studs Terkel Where was

Chuck Smith This was in Chicago.

Studs Terkel But he works on

Chuck Smith He works on the road. You know, he'd work on the railroads, and you kind of look at him and say, "Wow, you know, that guy travels a lot, you know?"

Ernest Perry Right, right.

Chuck Smith And for a while there, I would say, "Wow. When I grow up, I want to be one of those cats."

Ernest Perry Right, right.

Joseph Moore You know, I was -- may I say this? I bought a new house. My family increased, and I had to have extra rooms, you know. I bought a house. Brand new. And I wanted to put wall-to-wall carpeting, and I had to get a loan. So I went to people I bought the carpeting from, they wouldn't finance me. They could have, but they wouldn't. So I went to the Pullman Bank. The Pullman executive that I talked to told me, he says, "You can get a loan. You're a Pullman porter. Makes a big difference from the railroad employee, a postal employee. We don't give them loans very easy. But we never have any trouble out of Pullman porters." Isn't that something?

Ernest Perry That's right.

Joseph Moore I've been told that more than once.

Chuck Smith That's because they knew that those guys loved their work.

Joseph Moore And the Pullman Company demanded for us that we walk right. Pay our bills.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Joseph Moore Always be looked up to. And that was in your heart.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Studs Terkel What was -- another -- I got to ask you about the restless in a minute there, about, I'll ask you that now. Did you ever -- how often did you sleep on land, on firm land itself?

Joseph Moore Well, not very often. When we left -- let's say, for instance, when I ran from Chicago to Seattle on the Great Northern, it was a 14-mainline, what that means, when I make a round-trip I get paid 14 days, but it would take me six days to make that trip. When I leave Chicago I get to Seattle on the third day, I stay there all day and all night and then pull out on the fourth day and get back here on the sixth. But the funny thing about that, Studs, every day that I leave Chicago, I would -- we'd go through Fargo, and at Fargo, we'd get there around two something, I was supposed to be up at Fargo to put off people or pick them up, invariably pick them up. At Grand Forks, Minnesota, I'd have to put them off. And that's at five o'clock in the morning. So I would say to myself, "My gosh, if I could just sleep through these two towns once, just any time in my life, if I could sleep through these two towns I'd be one happy Pullman porter." It never happened. I retired in 1976, February the first, and for the first two years I retired I would invariably wake up before I was due in Fargo, North Dakota. [laughter] I couldn't break it. I couldn't break it.

Studs Terkel It's funny you mention Fargo and Grand Forks. These were big stops once.

Joseph Moore Yeah, yes they were, yeah, yeah. You never went through those towns without picking up somebody or putting them off.

Studs Terkel So there were certain towns, I suppose, that were known as railroad

Joseph Moore Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what they were.

Studs Terkel Clinton, Iowa was one.

Joseph Moore Clinton,

Studs Terkel These are towns that we think of in those terms there. What's another

Joseph Moore Lincoln, Nebraska.

Studs Terkel Some more -- Lincoln,

Joseph Moore Another place west of Lincoln, Red Oaks, and places like that. Yeah.

Studs Terkel They were, they were stops.

Joseph Moore Yeah.

Studs Terkel What's another scene from "Solo Song for Doc"?

Ernest Perry Well, we have the scene where the waiters' waiter is explaining what service is all about, and this is just prior to the decline of Doc, or actually the technicality on which he was put on the ground.

Chuck Smith And we'll need your assistance on this, Studs.

Ernest Perry Certainly will. Right. If you would be so kind

Studs Terkel Oh, is this the scene?

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Studs Terkel Oh, I'll read that.

Chuck Smith Read Jerry.

Studs Terkel Now, I am Jerry the inspector.

Chuck Smith Right.

Ernest Perry Right.

Studs Terkel Now, Jerry comes on, you knew he was coming on at a certain place.

Ernest Perry Yeah, well, we knew he was subject to get on at any

Chuck Smith Any place. You never knew

Studs Terkel But you also knew -- the other waiters around knew

Chuck Smith We knew why he came on.

Ernest Perry Right,

Studs Terkel That the company was laying for Doc.

Ernest Perry Right.

Studs Terkel That is, they wanted him -- there was some retirement pay, they wanted him to leave, now they thought he was too

Ernest Perry Right, that's correct, they had

Studs Terkel And Doc, everybody was aware of

Chuck Smith Right.

Ernest Perry Right.

Studs Terkel And they know that Jerry, this guy is out, that's his job, to get Doc.

Chuck Smith Right.

Studs Terkel So you want to -- yeah. Where

Chuck Smith He's going to set it up.

Ernest Perry "Now, you think you know service, Youngblood. Well, all of you do. But you don't. See, anybody can serve. But not everybody can become a part of that service. And when Doc poured that hot tea into that glass of crushed ice, it was like he was pouring it through his own fingers. It was like he and the tray and the pot and the glass, all of it was the same body. It was a beautiful move. It was service! The ice tea glass sat in the shell dish, and the iced tea spoon lay straight in front of Jerry. The lemon wedge Doc put in the shell dish, half-full of crushed ice with an oyster fork stuck into its skin. Not in the meat, mind you, but squarely under the skin of that lemon, and the whole thing lay in a pretty curve on top of that crushed ice. Doc stood back and waited. And Jerry had been watching the service and was impressed. He mixed the sugar in his glass and sipped. And Danny Jackson and I were down the aisle in the hall. Uncle T stood behind Jerry, bending over, his arms folded, waiting. And Doc stood next to the table, his tray under his arm, looking straight ahead and calm because he had given good service, and he knew it. Jerry sipped again.

Studs Terkel Good tea. It's very good tea.

Ernest Perry Doc was silent. Jerry took the lemon wedge off the oyster fork and squeezed it into the glass and stirred and sipped again.

Studs Terkel Very good.

Ernest Perry And then he drained the glass, and Doc reached over to pick it up for more ice, but Jerry kept his hand on the glass.

Studs Terkel Very good service, Doc, but you served the lemon wrong.

Ernest Perry Everybody was quiet. Uncle T folded his hands in the praying position.

Chuck Smith How's that?

Studs Terkel The service was wrong.

Chuck Smith How could it be? I've been giving that same service for years, right down to the crushed ice for the lemon

Studs Terkel That's just it, Doc. The lemon wedge. You served it wrong.

Chuck Smith Yeah?

Studs Terkel Yes. Haven't you seen the new rules? Haven't you seen it?

Ernest Perry Jerry smiled that hard and gray smile of his, the kind of smile that says, "I've always been the boss and I'm smiling this way because I know it and can afford to give you something.

Studs Terkel Steward Krauss. Steward Krauss, go get the black Bible for the head waiter.

Ernest Perry Krauss looked beaten, too. He's 63 and waiting on his pension. He got the Bible. Jerry took it and turned directly to the very last page. He knew where to look.

Studs Terkel Now, headwaiter, listen to this: memorandum number 2-2-4-1-6 from Douglas A. Tesdale, General Superintendent of dining cars, to waiters, stewards, chefs of dining cars, Attention: As of 7/9/65, the proper service for iced tea will be: (a), fresh-brewed tea in teapot poured over crushed ice at table, iced tea glass set in shell dish, (b) additional ice to be immediately available upon request after first glass of tea, (c) fresh lemon wedge will be served on bread and butter plate, no doily, with tines of oyster fork stuck into meat of lemon. Now you know, headwaiter?

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Studs Terkel Why didn't you know it before? This notice came out last week.

Chuck Smith I didn't check the book yet.

Studs Terkel But that's a rule. Always check the book before each trip. You know that, headwaiter.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Studs Terkel Then that's two rules you missed. Two rules you didn't read. You're slowing down, Doc.

Chuck Smith I know.

Studs Terkel You want some time off to rest? See, I think you need some time on the ground to rest up, don't you?

Ernest Perry Doc put his tray on the table and sat down in the seat across from Jerry. This was the first time we'd ever seen a waiter sit down with a customer, even an inspector. Well, Uncle T was behind Jerry's back waving his hand, trying to tell Doc to get up. Doc didn't even look at him.

Studs Terkel You're tired, aren't you?

Chuck Smith I'm just resting.

Studs Terkel Get up, headwaiter. You'll have plenty of time to do that. I'm writing you up." Boy oh boy, I remember that -- your reading, by the way, both of you, Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith, it was very moving, and hearing you, just seated at, at, on the stage read that. And you knew everybody was watching. Did you ever encounter a scene? Did you ever hear of a scene like that in your work, Joe?

Joseph Moore Oh yes, yes, yes. I have seen it. Sometimes I can, wonder how the waiters could take it. See, the, there's one thing I can say about the Pullman Company, Studs, they weren't that, like that.

Studs Terkel They weren't?

Joseph Moore They were hard on us, but they weren't like that. I saw a case there where the dining car inspectors, a superintendent, of the West, I'll call it, the Western Pacific railroad, came into Chicago, and he made it his business not to go into the dining car to eat until the train had left Aurora, coming to Chicago, and there's 38 miles from Aurora to Chicago. Now, how could he eat, he did that purposely.

Chuck Smith Yeah.

Joseph Moore Okay, keep them men on their train, on their car serving him into the station. Now, their time stops before the train gets to the station. See, that

Studs Terkel See, one of the aspects, this is, James Alan McPherson the writer, obviously had some experience. For a short time. He was Youngblood,

Chuck Smith He was Youngblood.

Studs Terkel And he saw the sort of -- see, we forget that part of this is also oral history. It has passed from mouth to mouth, genera-- in these stories.

Chuck Smith We're lucky a writer like McPherson did get the word.

Ernest Perry Right.

Studs Terkel Oh, that would be a great project I think: the stories of Pullman car porters and of dining car waiters. Interesting about that split between them, that Joe Moore

Chuck Smith Yeah, I wasn't aware of that.

Ernest Perry I wasn't either.

Chuck Smith Joe, how did you find out about the show, by the way?

Joseph Moore I read about it, I believe I did, yeah, I read about it, and then we have a retired Pull-- railroad man's club, Pullman porters and railroad men. That was announced there also.

Chuck Smith Oh, great.

Joseph Moore Yes, it was announced.

Studs Terkel It was announced there. Did you -- have you heard, aside from Joe Moore, have you heard from other guys who may have been dining car waiters?

Chuck Smith It's quite

Ernest Perry Oddly enough, oddly enough I had an uncle who was named George, who rode on the train from Chicago to L.A.

Studs Terkel He was sleeping car porter.

Ernest Perry He was a waiter.

Studs Terkel He was a waiter!

Ernest Perry Right, and he used to tell the story of how he went from Chicago to L.A. with just a "Yes!" and a "No!" You know, all the way, and didn't make a dime, but on the way back from L.A. to Chicago was "Yes, ma'am," and "No, sir." He just came in with a pocket full of money!

Studs Terkel So that, of course, there

Ernest Perry A group of nurses came to see the show who had served on the trains back in those days, and they were elated when we, they talked to us about an hour and a half after the show telling us about the old guys and the stories and saying, "It was just like that, it was just like that."

Joseph Moore It was.

Studs Terkel One other thing, I suppose. You know, when James Baldwin wrote "Nobody Knows My Name" he says, "We know more of" -- talking about whites, "We know more about you than you know about us," because we're never there. I imagine the sleeping car porter, dining car, knew a lot about those patrons.

Joseph Moore Yeah.

Studs Terkel Because of the conversations or whatever was happening on the train, so they were probably in on all that

Chuck Smith Well, they had to be, that's, that's their living. That's how they, that's how

Studs Terkel What is, one -- another sequel, one last sequence. You got this sort of, you know, the hour is sort of gone. Any further you want to say, Joe, before the -- we hear the clickety-clack of the wheels again?

Joseph Moore Well, the sleeping car porters had very long hours, very long hours. When I first started out, we weren't allowed to sleep but two hours a night out of 24 hours. And I'll never forget

Studs Terkel -- Two hours a night of the 24?

Joseph Moore Two hours out of 24.

Studs Terkel Where would you sleep? in

Joseph Moore In the smoking room.

Studs Terkel In the smoking

Joseph Moore Yeah. And now, back in those days, you talk about some, some people, I say, some -- most of the people are right but nice, but we'd get some people from a certain section of the country during the war. I'll never forget. I got to tell you this, Studs, on the Empire Builder I picked up some officers, and some of them were from Ioway and some were from down south, and that was during a time when the army decided rather than order the stuff on paper, they would send the officers out to the camps and inventory what they needed and get it out there quicker, rather than go through the mail. So my, my job was to go to bed leaving Chicago at 11:15 at night, get up at two, and these people, one of them got on at Aurora. And he says, he went into a smoking room, made all the noise he could, and he says, "One thing I can't stand is a God-- G-D, Yankee nigger." Oh, he start talking about us something terrible, and this officer from Ioway said, "Well, what is it about them you don't like?" He said, "I just can't stand them." He said, "Well, you, I guess you and I are the same way. I don't see anything outstanding in the southern Negro." He said, "They're lazy," said "I prefer the northern Negro anytime over a southern Negro," and they got to talking. So I remember this guy's face -- voice. So I said, my objective was to change this guy's disposition. See? So I got up at two o'clock. He was in lower sixth, I'll never forget it. Major he was, too. You wouldn't think that for a major, these weren't rookies

Studs Terkel Oh, I would think

Joseph Moore These were officers, big officers. I was so nice to that man, as nice as rest of my people, I was -- a tourist car. Thirty-two people, we called them a straight eight, eight this way, and eight that way. Straight eight, you know. Thirty-two beds. That guy says, "Porter, where are you from?" "Chicago." "Say, you're different from the fellows I've been running into, coming in contact with." "Well, thank you very much." "I can't understand why you're so different." I said, "Well, we, we want to enjoy the same place in life you do, Major. We've been raised differently." So I said to him, but he changed. I was too nice to him.

Chuck Smith Well, let's hope he changed.

All [Laughter, all speaking together.]

Joseph Moore I know what you mean.

Studs Terkel So anyway, this is by way of thanking you, Joe Moore, for your reflections and your memories and hope you're enjoying your -- I won't call it retirement, resting.

Joseph Moore Thank you. Thank you, Studs. Pleasure to be here, too.

Studs Terkel And Ernest Perry, perhaps you and Chuck Smith, is there one last scene?

Ernest Perry Yes, there is.

Studs Terkel And then we'll hear the clickety clack, and this is by way of reminding the audience that these are readings from "Ode to Doc" -- oh, ode--

Ernest Perry "Solo Song".

Studs Terkel I'm sorry, "Solo Song for Doc". And it'll be, I think it'll be performed again, I hope very soon.

Ernest Perry We're planning on taking it on tour.

Studs Terkel On tour as part of history and theater at the same time, and we hear the last scene with Ernest Perry and Chuck Smith.

Ernest Perry "Doc got a good pension and took it directly to Andy's, and none of the boys who knew about it knew how to refuse a drink on him. But none of us knew how to drink with him, knowing that we would be going out again in a few days and when he's on the ground. So a lot of us, even the drunks and hustlers who usually hang around Andy's avoided him whenever we could. There's nothing to talk about anymore. He died five months after they put him on the ground. He's 73 and it was winter, and he froze to death wandering around in the Chicago yards early one morning. He had been drunk and was still steaming when the yard crew found him. There are only a few of us left in the old school knew what he was