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Guy Duckworth and three students discuss teaching and learning piano, part 1

BROADCAST: 1968 | DURATION: 00:31:27

Synopsis

Musician, pianist, and educator Guy Duckworth and three of his young students at Northwestern--Darrah Cloud, David Greenberg, and Scott MacMillan--discuss teaching and learning piano. Part 1 of 2.

Transcript

Tap within the transcript to jump to that part of the audio.

OK

Guy Duckworth Okay. In the right register there. All right. What's your

Scott MacMillan

Guy Duckworth tempo, Scott? [plays piano]. Okay, that's very nice. All right. And then on your return, how softly

Scott MacMillan

Guy Duckworth are you going to play? [plays piano]. Okay. All right. Okay, get a nice balance between your melody and with your

Scott MacMillan accompaniment. Okay? Ready? Go. [plays piano] Yes. And Scott, you're how old? Eleven. Eleven. And Darrah? Eleven and a half. I'm starting my fourth year. It's the fourth year for all three of you, right? We were all started the same group, four years ago, there was another child in the group when we began and we've been fortunate to stay together for this length of time, which is a nice lifespan. Guy Duckworth, how can we describe this approach to piano in the part of David and Scott and Darrah and their other colleagues? There's something wholly different. They were just fooling around now, they were warming up with

Studs Terkel

David Greenberg

Studs Terkel

Scott MacMillan Yes. And Scott, you're how old? Eleven.

Studs Terkel Eleven. And Darrah?

Darrah Cloud Very exciting. Room 108, Lufkin Hall, Northwestern University , Guy Duckworth is conducting a class with three of his brightest pupils, I was about to say, with three of his extremely bright ones, Guy Duckworth, who is the head of the Piano Preparatory Department, Northwestern University, is here with three of his disciples, there's David, 11 years old, is that right, David? You're about 11? Eleven and a half. I'm starting my fourth year. It's the fourth year for all three of you, right? We were all started the same group, four years ago, there was another child in the group when we began and we've been fortunate to stay together for this length of time, which is a nice lifespan. Guy Duckworth, how can we describe this approach to piano in the part of David and Scott and Darrah and their other colleagues? There's something wholly different. They were just fooling around now, they were warming up with improvising a bit of Bartok here. How--your approach to the piano, or their approach, I should say, through you, is something wholly different, isn't it? Well, maybe--Darrah, you talk about what is it that we're doing? Well-- That's a big question. Talk with her, David and Scott. This might be-- How do you learn? For example, Darrah, Dr. Duckworth is asking you what did you do when you first came here. The first thing you were learn, was it the scale? Well, first I think we were learning were songs that involved the scale, and eventually we learned how to play more, better scales and better technique. And you started out by improvising, making up your own tunes. Scott, you were going to say something. We started out with rhythms and clapping and the rhythms and stuff like that. Played by ear. Eventually. Did some pentachords. Tetrachords. I'm thinking, Guy, Duckworth, just as--I think Darrah was saying, Darrah or Scott was saying, you were playing songs. You started playing songs. That was a whole thing, something that-- Imagine! Songs! You imagined songs. No, I mean, I'm saying "Imagine!" We were playing songs in the beginning instead of scales, or-- That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I meant. Instead of something learned--why don't you people tell me, was it coming in, was it kind of slave-work, like? Oh, it was very easy. Why? Well, we had-- Nursery rhymes, sort of. Yeah, well, of course it would be easy for us now, but I think at the beginning it was a little hard because we had never had anything like that before. You certainly had to work. I was surprised. Because I thought, well, usually it would be just learning songs that I played and fooled around with the piano before. I was thinking, just as you're talking, Darrah, and I'll ask Mr. Duckworth a question here, the, they come in, I know your whole approach we talked about this earlier is the overall design, music, the gestalt, we call it, the overall link, and the whole body is involved in the being of freedom is here. It's not a cut and dried learning one little note at a time unrelated to something else, it's the whole. We hope it's this whole all the time. We tried very hard to make it that way. We depend very much upon intuitive thinking to do it, to make this happen in music, Studs, so we use analogous situations that would help us play the piano, such as clapping, such as walking. We would space in the air melodic lines, we would move up and down for them. We do a lot of singing, too. And then we use the design of the keyboard and the construction of the hands or limiting conditions to tell us how we might do some fingering of a phrase or to play scales. I noticed as you were talking Darrah and Scott, they're closed, there are two pianos here, David is at one piano, and Darrah and Scott at the other piano, and Darrah or Scott closed this piano top. And this is rather interesting, now, if David were to play something now, they would do something on top of the piano, that is, the piano top. Yes, they would feel this, and we might do this right now. David might play his Clementi "Sonatina in C Major", and as he plays, why, Scott and Darrah at the other piano, will be feeling kinesthetically as you have said, how his composition feels in time, as it will. Shall we try it? And you interrupt us if you like. Okay. And this is in what key now, David? C. C major and what are we going to be listening for as we tap here, and as he plays, what are you thinking about, David? Well, the left hand should be controlled and it should be softer than the right hand. Why, Scott? Why should he bother with that? Well, your tune is in the right hand and the left hand is mainly just the same, it's just a chord. So that makes sense, too. To think of it that way. Anything else to be concerned about? Dynamics. Dynamics. Dynamics, staccato and his [rest?]. All right. So we have some things to think about as we tap and listen to you play. [plays piano] Okay. Thank you. I was thinking, David, as you were playing your Clementi, this is the David interpretation of Clementi here, Scott and Darrah, you were doing what, you were drumming, I hope that the audience heard the, your piano, your fingertips upon the top of the piano. What, why were you doing, Darrah, what were you doing? Well, while David feels or plays a piece, we in a way feel it, and it helps David keep his rhythm and it helps us to know what the song is, and what he's playing. And what, Scott, but you were--weren't you, weren't each of you, I know nothing about music, I'm asking this cold, now. Darrah, weren't you, Scott, weren't you and Darrah approaching what David was doing differently? You weren't imitating her, were you? Well-- I don't quite--it was [unintelligible], Guy? They were doing the exact rhythms that David was playing, and Darrah stated it very well, that by their tapping and counting, that's going to stabilize his tempo in performance and at the same time they're going to start to realize their own performance in Clementi after they have lived through the timespan as he plays. Am I off here, in saying that whatever it--I forgot that Darrah is one person and Scott is another. Yes. And, so, the way they did it, even though they were doing the same thing, it was different, physically it was a little different. Indeed. Yes. And I think this is what is the beautiful part about these kids being together in a group, that we realize their differences more dramatically this way than if I worked with David by himself, then Scott by himself, then Darrah by herself. I think--do you have much discussion? I notice a certain freedom here, you people, you talk back and forth a lot, too? I never say anything. I think that body, you know, this matter of body. You ever hear of Mahalia Jackson? The spiritual singer? You know what Mahalia says? I'll ask this of Mr. Duckworth and see whether his approach is similar to Mahalia's, says, "I can't sing with my voice alone, it's my whole body, because I have that," she called this "demonstrating." This is, by the way, this is not political, this is musical demonstration. She demonstrates. You ever been to a church and see gospel, how sometimes walk down the aisles, of half dancing, it's the whole body, now is this related to what you're doing, Guy Duckworth? We certainly want it to be. We want to be that lively, that energetic, and that important to every fiber in our bodies and our voices, I think. We try very hard, don't we, Scott? Well, the Bartok that we play at the beginning is very exciting when you get into it, and-- For what reasons? Well, just dynamics and the way it's written. It just makes it interesting. These fifths that Scott was playing here [plays piano], that has a, that's exciting there, the tempo is exciting, the dynamics that you put in so well make it exciting. When you say dynamics, Darrah, what do you mean? Explain to me, a layman. Well, like the sounds. If you want a loud sound or a soft sound. It's soft would be piano, very soft is pianissimo. Mezzo-forte is-- Very loud. It's loud. Why do we bother with those things? It's half-loud, it's kind of-- In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry. We have other means of throwing excitement into our performance, and we have touch controls, too. You mentioned in the Clementi we would want to listen for legato and staccato. And, so, we have exercises, too, to get our fingers going in these directions. Perhaps it might be appropriate for us to do one now. Let's work in D major with our exercise. Show the exercise, David. [plays piano] This is legato. Now continue, this is very smooth. fine. How do you play legato, David? What are you working for as you are playing there? It sounds very good. You're supposed to move your wrists along the finger positions so it's easier to make it sound more smoother, and it's supposed to sound smooth. What does that seem to help, Scott, to do that, or Darrah, would help? Why is the wrist to be flexible as you play? Well, so your baby--or your small fingers. Your baby fingers. Your smaller fingers can get to the other keys and that makes it sound even. It's like you move your hand around. You lengthen your shorter fingers this way. Yes, fine. And anything else that you're thinking about? Well, it's the notes on the right key. Notes on the right. What do you mean? On the right key, you know. Oh, play the right keys, if we're in the key of D. Anything else, Darrah? Play legato. We were talking about dynamics here. Anything else involved? How do we control dynamics to play legato? Well, it's kind of easier to play legato if you're playing if it's a soft or piano dynamic, but that's what we're working toward, getting louder and still being staccato--or I mean, legato. And still being legato. So you can play forte and still make it sound smooth, which is-- Legato is what, again, asking the name, and someone else, one of the students of Mr. Duckworth, was saying, "I think maybe I keep them down longer," the notes, and says, so that's how he was discovering legato. Legato. Legato, what would you say legato, was, tell me, Scott, I ask you, what do you mean when you say legato? Well, it's--the notes are real smooth, and they sort of flow together. Flow together. Flow together. Flow together. The same kind of feeling, they say down longer. Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy? Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire? That sounds good. Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky? All right. Or Darrah? Who put? I'll play. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. Is this a morning practice? This is Tchaikovsky from memory. It's a morning practice. Right. From the album for the young. Shall we tap? It's up to you. What do you want to do, tap or mark? We do other things at the keyboard, that we might to clarify for Studs. What do we mean by marking, Darrah and David? Well, you play along with Scott, except being, except not even playing at all. Being silent at the keyboard, but feeling the keys that he is playing. As though you were--fingers in the air. Yes. Instead of fingers--above the keys, but not touching the keys. Well, touching the keys but not pushing them down. Not pushing them down, but why, why, why doing this? Do you get anything out of it? It's for--so we can feel this, too, along with Scott, and if this is if we were all three playing it together. And, so, in effect, why Scott's learning the "Morning Prayer" by Tchaikovsky, and as he learns it, these two are picking up ideas and they go home and learn by themselves. They've got it. Is that the way it works? Yeah. I think so. I hope so. What were you going to say, Scott? [plays piano]. Oh, that's beautiful. That's lovely, isn't it? Yes, we're all smiling here. I was thinking, Guy Duckworth, teacher, for those who may have tuned in late, we're at a room in Lufkin Hall, part of the music school, school of Northwestern University, Guy Duckworth is head of the Piano Preparatory Department of Northwestern, has this class which I'm sure can be described as pioneering, a whole different technique in teaching piano and as Scott, all three st--three of the, how many students all together? In the department? We have 340. Three hundred forty, young students roughly contemporaries of David and Scott and Darrah. Who range from the age of six through 18. Six through 18, following the Duckworth approach. Well, some have begun here, some haven't. Where they haven't begun here, we try to get this gestalt occurring for those who have other backgrounds, so they are improvising moving to music. I was going to ask Darrah and David, the question as you two were playing soundlessly, you know, your fingers as we heard Scott playing the Tchaikovsky "Morning Prayer", did you hear, what did you hear, Darrah, did you--this is a tough question. I mean, it's a silly one. Were you hearing something in your own ears that was different, you know, was it identical to what Scott was actually playing? Well, that's a good question. Well, what I was marking was the lower notes in the music, where the chords are in the left hand. And that's all I hear. That's what I try to listen for. And let me rephrase the question here. Another way that, did he realize in his performance everything that you wanted from the music as you saw it, or feel the music should go? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Yes. Yes. So you were, you felt satisfied with the performance. Would you do anything different if you were playing the piece? Would you crescendo more than Scott? His use of dynamics was very lovely. But would you do more with him? Would your piano be softer? Well, no two people are alike, so I kind of figure that it probably would be. It would be. And what differences would you find for yourself, David? Well, it would be pretty much the same, but not just, not as good, probably. How humble. You know, later on, you know, when you three are concert artists, I can just imagine you saying that. You probably will, I think that's the point of Guy Duckworth's whole approach, is that there is a certain spirit. Aside from music, Guy, perhaps, obviously music is your instrument. The piano is the extension of the personalities of your students. And, yet, something else happens in your classes, quite obviously, doesn't it? I think we're friendly. But there's more. You feel--as I'm talking to you now, you know, I talk a lot. But Darrah and David and, and Scott, in class with Mr. Duckworth, you don't feel restrained, when you have something to say you say it, often? It's like a family. Because all, all four of us are sitting here, and it's just like we were teaching Dr. Duckworth, Dr. Duckworth at the same time is teaching us. That's very nice. You know something about, something you just said about Dr. Duckworth? You are learning, too, aren't you, in a way? Yes. Very, very definitely. That's very nice, that it comes through to these young ones, that I feel this way, too. What--you go ahead. I'm just eavesdropping here. Okay. Tchaikovsky's written a lot of notes. He said how these notes were to be played, with a legato touch. How else has he said to play it? Scott? Well, there really isn't now as much staccato, I don't think there's hardly any staccato. Well, he wants it played softly, and he wants-- He's told us what dynamics to use. He wants it to sound like a morning prayer, as that's the title. And, so, he's told us the touch, the volume. Some places it's real sort of harsh. What does that tone mean, how fast was it to be played, what was the tempo? Slow. Slow. Slow. Lento. Were these sad, was this a satisfying tempo for you, it was, was realized. It was a beautiful performance, Scott. Thank you. Let's hear some Bach. This is a piece of another character, isn't it, Darrah? Oh, it sure is. Do you guys want to describe it? Your feelings about what this is? Well, it's sort of like-- It's very interesting to get their impressions of what these pieces are like. They're mu--their impressions are much different from yours and mine. As I said before, a few weeks ago, it sounds like a butterfly in the beginning, and then later on sometimes when it gets real loud, maybe the butterfly is coming closer and then, then all of a sudden he goes away, and then it ends. What's your impression, Scott, before we hear it? I think this might be fun to build up some expectancy. I don't know. Do you? What I want to say is, like naturally, after a person plays a piece I could like to criticize and help the person and tell him what to work on and things like that. So let's hear it first. This is Darrah, who plays the Bach. [plays piano] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice use of dynamics. Something very interesting about Baroque music for us is that there's never any touch given to us. We don't know how to play legato or staccato. We don't know whether to play loud or soft or how fast or slow to play. It makes it a lot more fun. Is it? It does what? It makes it a lot more fun. Why? Why is it more fun? Well, you put dynamics where you want to put them. And these were all Darrah's decisions here. These were all her decisions. In other--it was your touch, it was uniquely Darrah. I never played it like this. Every time I-- She felt it didn't go too well. No, but thinking about Scott's point here, more fun, the very fact that, the not too many directions, you know, sometimes the playwright of a play doesn't write too many directions so the actors and the director can have more freedom. Isn't this the way you feel as a performer? I think it's useful, it was a lot of fun, because I never play it two times the same way. I might play legato in one place, and then staccato another, and then I had it all staccato, it might, sometimes the dynamics are always different, and that's why I like it. Could we pursue that just a bit, just what Darrah said, Dr. Duckworth, with David and with Scott? She never plays it the same way twice. This is interesting. You mean the day, you may feel different one day or the next, is that it? Or the day may be a cold day? Well, when I'm mad at my mother I always play it loud, but I always like, I just feel the minute I start it, I feel the reason--well, to say it another way, the music seems to me like a storm out in the ocean, and the minute I start it, up comes the storm, you know? And then at different parts I'm--can make believe it's more of a tragedy and it's getting worse and worse, and then it'll kind of calm down. You know what I mean. It's quite amazing the difference in stories that, between David-- I was thinking that, David saw it as butterflies. I think if it were major, I think the butterfly would come in more soundly, but now it's minor, and maybe a storm is sort of, you know, rough, and no one likes, and minor is sort of like a sad piece. Now, we have some repairs to do here, Studs, that maybe it might be appropriate for us to do right now. Now, Darrah ended up the composition slower than she began it. And, so, it's important for us to find the tempo that is most comfortable for her, so that she can live through this with a more steady tempo. Now, tap the tempo that she finished with, Scott, your impression of the tempo. Maybe the last line, there, maybe? The [unintelligible] notes or what? Yes. I'm not--. Can you remember? It was--David, you try. I remember [taps]. Okay, now would you count that as you tap, David? One and two. Now see, you slowed it down now. [taps] One and two and three and four. Let's see, how many beats now. Oh, one and-- There are-- Two and-- Okay, you do it, Scott. [taps] One and two and three, and one and two and three, and one and two and three, and-- Okay, now let's have her start at that tempo, and see how it goes for just a little while. All right? You tap, and will you please count aloud so she hears you, David and Scott, and so you can help her. Okay? Ready? Go. [plays piano]. Just a moment. [Where?] the count. All right. Count one major, and then she'll start over. One and two--. [Taps]. [plays piano] That's the tempo that approximately that you ended up with. I know, I was kind of stupid at the beginning, because that's the way I was practicing it all week, and I completely forgot. That's what hard about performing. But do you find, Dr. Duckworth was asking you, Darrah, but there's a certain tempo which you find yourself most at ease? You see, I think, isn't that what you were asking? Yes, most at ease in terms of how well her memory is functioning. Most at ease in terms of how well her fingers are functioning for the notes that she is remembering and that's the ease we're concerned about now. Now, we can have more variety in tempos when the memory becomes more precise, and when the fingers become more precise, so we can have a variety of tempos, and say this feels best now for [they?]. But right now we're kind of held to one tempo because of memory and fingers at this point that we want to have. What's on your mind, gentlemen and lady? what do you think now? Well, it just seems, it's kind of hard for me to play solo because of my feelings of the piece, and it's so-- That's hardly a storm at that tempo. You're quite right. You're quite right. It's very nice to see because children relate so strongly to their music. That, you see, you can't fight at that tempo at which Dr. Duckworth thinks, but you're--of course, in your mind you think of that storm, and therefore you think of a more fiery tempo. Well, if I had heard it first at that tempo, then maybe I'd be more at ease playing it at that tempo. Or if you weren't mad at your mother that day. So. Scott, David saw butterflies moving in and out, Darrah say it as a storm, do you, without putting you in any spot or anything, did you see that? In your, any way, any other picture you had? Need not, I don't know. Well, sometimes I have pictures, but lots of times they're different. I can't remember them very well. Scott's ideas about music tend to be related, right, with the vocabulary of music more often, don't they, Scott? I mean, you tend to say what chords they are, or that they, or what notes they are, what have you, whereas Darrah and David have this kind of pictures that have butterflies and storms on their minds. Oh, I do it lots of times, too. Do you? Let's work with this repertoire after "America". Shall we do that? Yeah. Shall we just take a slight pause while the tape is being changed? All right. And then we'll pick up, I want to hear your variations on "America" using the various styles of composures. Okay.

Studs Terkel

Darrah Cloud I'm starting my fourth year.

Studs Terkel It's

Guy Duckworth the fourth year for all three of you, right? We were all started the same group, four years ago, there was another child in the group when we began and we've been fortunate to stay together for this length of time, which is a nice lifespan.

Studs Terkel Very exciting. Room 108, Lufkin Hall, Northwestern University , Guy Duckworth is conducting a class with three of his brightest pupils, I was about to say, with three of his extremely bright ones, Guy Duckworth, who is the head of the Piano Preparatory Department, Northwestern University, is here with three of his disciples, there's David, 11 years old, is that right, David? You're about 11? Guy Duckworth, how can we describe this approach to piano in the part of David and Scott and Darrah and their other colleagues? There's something wholly different. They were just fooling around now, they were warming up with improvising a bit of Bartok here. How--your approach to the piano, or their approach, I should say, through you, is something wholly different, isn't it?

Guy Duckworth Well, maybe--Darrah, you talk about what is it that we're doing?

Darrah Cloud Well--

Guy Duckworth That's a big question. Talk with her, David and Scott. This might be--

Studs Terkel How do you learn? For example, Darrah, Dr. Duckworth is asking you what did you do when you first came here. The first thing you were learn, was it the scale?

Darrah Cloud Well, first I think we were learning were songs that involved the scale, and eventually we learned how to play more, better scales and

Guy Duckworth better technique. And you started out by improvising, making up your own tunes. Scott, you were going to say something.

Scott MacMillan We started out

Guy Duckworth

Darrah Cloud Eleven and a half. Well, Darrah, you're studying with Dr. Duckworth, now, Mr. Duckworth, for how long? with rhythms and clapping and the rhythms and stuff like that. Played by ear. Eventually. Did some pentachords. Tetrachords. I'm thinking, Guy, Duckworth, just as--I think Darrah was saying, Darrah or Scott was saying, you were playing songs. You started playing songs. That was a whole thing, something that-- Imagine! Songs! You imagined songs. No, I mean, I'm saying "Imagine!" We were playing songs in the beginning instead of scales, or-- That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I meant. Instead of something learned--why don't you people tell me, was it coming in, was it kind of slave-work, like? Oh, it was very easy. Why? Well, we had-- Nursery rhymes, sort of. Yeah, well, of course it would be easy for us now, but I think at the beginning it was a little hard because we had never had anything like that before. You certainly had to work. I was surprised. Because I thought, well, usually it would be just learning songs that I played and fooled around with the piano before. I was thinking, just as you're talking, Darrah, and I'll ask Mr. Duckworth a question here, the, they come in, I know your whole approach we talked about this earlier is the overall design, music, the gestalt, we call it, the overall link, and the whole body is involved in the being of freedom is here. It's not a cut and dried learning one little note at a time unrelated to something else, it's the whole. We hope it's this whole all the time. We tried very hard to make it that way. We depend very much upon intuitive thinking to do it, to make this happen in music, Studs, so we use analogous situations that would help us play the piano, such as clapping, such as walking. We would space in the air melodic lines, we would move up and down for them. We do a lot of singing, too. And then we use the design of the keyboard and the construction of the hands or limiting conditions to tell us how we might do some fingering of a phrase or to play scales. I noticed as you were talking Darrah and Scott, they're closed, there are two pianos here, David is at one piano, and Darrah and Scott at the other piano, and Darrah or Scott closed this piano top. And this is rather interesting, now, if David were to play something now, they would do something on top of the piano, that is, the piano top. Yes, they would feel this, and we might do this right now. David might play his Clementi "Sonatina in C Major", and as he plays, why, Scott and Darrah at the other piano, will be feeling kinesthetically as you have said, how his composition feels in time, as it will. Shall we try it? And you interrupt us if you like. Okay. And this is in what key now, David? C. C major and what are we going to be listening for as we tap here, and as he plays, what are you thinking about, David? Well, the left hand should be controlled and it should be softer than the right hand. Why, Scott? Why should he bother with that? Well, your tune is in the right hand and the left hand is mainly just the same, it's just a chord. So that makes sense, too. To think of it that way. Anything else to be concerned about? Dynamics. Dynamics. Dynamics, staccato and his [rest?]. All right. So we have some things to think about as we tap and listen to you play. [plays piano] Okay. Thank you. I was thinking, David, as you were playing your Clementi, this is the David interpretation of Clementi here, Scott and Darrah, you were doing what, you were drumming, I hope that the audience heard the, your piano, your fingertips upon the top of the piano. What, why were you doing, Darrah, what were you doing? Well, while David feels or plays a piece, we in a way feel it, and it helps David keep his rhythm and it helps us to know what the song is, and what he's playing. And what, Scott, but you were--weren't you, weren't each of you, I know nothing about music, I'm asking this cold, now. Darrah, weren't you, Scott, weren't you and Darrah approaching what David was doing differently? You weren't imitating her, were you? Well-- I don't quite--it was [unintelligible], Guy? They were doing the exact rhythms that David was playing, and Darrah stated it very well, that by their tapping and counting, that's going to stabilize his tempo in performance and at the same time they're going to start to realize their own performance in Clementi after they have lived through the timespan as he plays. Am I off here, in saying that whatever it--I forgot that Darrah is one person and Scott is another. Yes. And, so, the way they did it, even though they were doing the same thing, it was different, physically it was a little different. Indeed. Yes. And I think this is what is the beautiful part about these kids being together in a group, that we realize their differences more dramatically this way than if I worked with David by himself, then Scott by himself, then Darrah by herself. I think--do you have much discussion? I notice a certain freedom here, you people, you talk back and forth a lot, too? I never say anything. I think that body, you know, this matter of body. You ever hear of Mahalia Jackson? The spiritual singer? You know what Mahalia says? I'll ask this of Mr. Duckworth and see whether his approach is similar to Mahalia's, says, "I can't sing with my voice alone, it's my whole body, because I have that," she called this "demonstrating." This is, by the way, this is not political, this is musical demonstration. She demonstrates. You ever been to a church and see gospel, how sometimes walk down the aisles, of half dancing, it's the whole body, now is this related to what you're doing, Guy Duckworth? We certainly want it to be. We want to be that lively, that energetic, and that important to every fiber in our bodies and our voices, I think. We try very hard, don't we, Scott? Well, the Bartok that we play at the beginning is very exciting when you get into it, and-- For what reasons? Well, just dynamics and the way it's written. It just makes it interesting. These fifths that Scott was playing here [plays piano], that has a, that's exciting there, the tempo is exciting, the dynamics that you put in so well make it exciting. When you say dynamics, Darrah, what do you mean? Explain to me, a layman. Well, like the sounds. If you want a loud sound or a soft sound. It's soft would be piano, very soft is pianissimo. Mezzo-forte is-- Very loud. It's loud. Why do we bother with those things? It's half-loud, it's kind of-- In between. In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry. We have other means of throwing excitement into our performance, and we have touch controls, too. You mentioned in the Clementi we would want to listen for legato and staccato. And, so, we have exercises, too, to get our fingers going in these directions. Perhaps it might be appropriate for us to do one now. Let's work in D major with our exercise. Show the exercise, David. [plays piano] This is legato. Now continue, this is very smooth. fine. How do you play legato, David? What are you working for as you are playing there? It sounds very good. You're supposed to move your wrists along the finger positions so it's easier to make it sound more smoother, and it's supposed to sound smooth. What does that seem to help, Scott, to do that, or Darrah, would help? Why is the wrist to be flexible as you play? Well, so your baby--or your small fingers. Your baby fingers. Your smaller fingers can get to the other keys and that makes it sound even. It's like you move your hand around. You lengthen your shorter fingers this way. Yes, fine. And anything else that you're thinking about? Well, it's the notes on the right key. Notes on the right. What do you mean? On the right key, you know. Oh, play the right keys, if we're in the key of D. Anything else, Darrah? Play legato. We were talking about dynamics here. Anything else involved? How do we control dynamics to play legato? Well, it's kind of easier to play legato if you're playing if it's a soft or piano dynamic, but that's what we're working toward, getting louder and still being staccato--or I mean, legato. And still being legato. So you can play forte and still make it sound smooth, which is-- Legato is what, again, asking the name, and someone else, one of the students of Mr. Duckworth, was saying, "I think maybe I keep them down longer," the notes, and says, so that's how he was discovering legato. Legato. Legato, what would you say legato, was, tell me, Scott, I ask you, what do you mean when you say legato? Well, it's--the notes are real smooth, and they sort of flow together. Flow together. Flow together. Flow together. The same kind of feeling, they say down longer. Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy? Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire? That sounds good. Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky? All right. Or Darrah? Who put? I'll play. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. So we shift to the piano. A blow-by-blow description. Scott has now moved into David's position, David moves into Scott's and Darrah stands by, and we have a little Tchaikovsky. And we decided we'll do these from memory. Is this a morning practice? This is Tchaikovsky from memory. It's a morning practice. Right. From the album for the young. Shall we tap? It's up to you. What do you want to do, tap or mark? We do other things at the keyboard, that we might to clarify for Studs. What do we mean by marking, Darrah and David? Well, you play along with Scott, except being, except not even playing at all. Being silent at the keyboard, but feeling the keys that he is playing. As though you were--fingers in the air. Yes. Instead of fingers--above the keys, but not touching the keys. Well, touching the keys but not pushing them down. Not pushing them down, but why, why, why doing this? Do you get anything out of it? It's for--so we can feel this, too, along with Scott, and if this is if we were all three playing it together. And, so, in effect, why Scott's learning the "Morning Prayer" by Tchaikovsky, and as he learns it, these two are picking up ideas and they go home and learn by themselves. They've got it. Is that the way it works? Yeah. I think so. I hope so. What were you going to say, Scott? [plays piano]. Oh, that's beautiful. That's lovely, isn't it? Yes, we're all smiling here. I was thinking, Guy Duckworth, teacher, for those who may have tuned in late, we're at a room in Lufkin Hall, part of the music school, school of Northwestern University, Guy Duckworth is head of the Piano Preparatory Department of Northwestern, has this class which I'm sure can be described as pioneering, a whole different technique in teaching piano and as Scott, all three st--three of the, how many students all together? In the department? We have 340. Three hundred forty, young students roughly contemporaries of David and Scott and Darrah. Who range from the age of six through 18. Six through 18, following the Duckworth approach. Well, some have begun here, some haven't. Where they haven't begun here, we try to get this gestalt occurring for those who have other backgrounds, so they are improvising moving to music. I was going to ask Darrah and David, the question as you two were playing soundlessly, you know, your fingers as we heard Scott playing the Tchaikovsky "Morning Prayer", did you hear, what did you hear, Darrah, did you--this is a tough question. I mean, it's a silly one. Were you hearing something in your own ears that was different, you know, was it identical to what Scott was actually playing? Well, that's a good question. Well, what I was marking was the lower notes in the music, where the chords are in the left hand. And that's all I hear. That's what I try to listen for. And let me rephrase the question here. Another way that, did he realize in his performance everything that you wanted from the music as you saw it, or feel the music should go? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Yes. Yes. So you were, you felt satisfied with the performance. Would you do anything different if you were playing the piece? Would you crescendo more than Scott? His use of dynamics was very lovely. But would you do more with him? Would your piano be softer? Well, no two people are alike, so I kind of figure that it probably would be. It would be. And what differences would you find for yourself, David? Well, it would be pretty much the same, but not just, not as good, probably. How humble. You know, later on, you know, when you three are concert artists, I can just imagine you saying that. You probably will, I think that's the point of Guy Duckworth's whole approach, is that there is a certain spirit. Aside from music, Guy, perhaps, obviously music is your instrument. The piano is the extension of the personalities of your students. And, yet, something else happens in your classes, quite obviously, doesn't it? I think we're friendly. But there's more. You feel--as I'm talking to you now, you know, I talk a lot. But Darrah and David and, and Scott, in class with Mr. Duckworth, you don't feel restrained, when you have something to say you say it, often? It's like a family. Because all, all four of us are sitting here, and it's just like we were teaching Dr. Duckworth, Dr. Duckworth at the same time is teaching us. That's very nice. You know something about, something you just said about Dr. Duckworth? You are learning, too, aren't you, in a way? Yes. Very, very definitely. That's very nice, that it comes through to these young ones, that I feel this way, too. What--you go ahead. I'm just eavesdropping here. Okay. Tchaikovsky's written a lot of notes. He said how these notes were to be played, with a legato touch. How else has he said to play it? Scott? Well, there really isn't now as much staccato, I don't think there's hardly any staccato. Well, he wants it played softly, and he wants-- He's told us what dynamics to use. He wants it to sound like a morning prayer, as that's the title. And, so, he's told us the touch, the volume. Some places it's real sort of harsh. What does that tone mean, how fast was it to be played, what was the tempo? Slow. Slow. Slow. Lento. Were these sad, was this a satisfying tempo for you, it was, was realized. It was a beautiful performance, Scott. Thank you. Let's hear some Bach. This is a piece of another character, isn't it, Darrah? Oh, it sure is. Do you guys want to describe it? Your feelings about what this is? Well, it's sort of like-- It's very interesting to get their impressions of what these pieces are like. They're mu--their impressions are much different from yours and mine. As I said before, a few weeks ago, it sounds like a butterfly in the beginning, and then later on sometimes when it gets real loud, maybe the butterfly is coming closer and then, then all of a sudden he goes away, and then it ends. What's your impression, Scott, before we hear it? I think this might be fun to build up some expectancy. I don't know. Do you? What I want to say is, like naturally, after a person plays a piece I could like to criticize and help the person and tell him what to work on and things like that. So let's hear it first. This is Darrah, who plays the Bach. [plays piano] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice use of dynamics. Something very interesting about Baroque music for us is that there's never any touch given to us. We don't know how to play legato or staccato. We don't know whether to play loud or soft or how fast or slow to play. It makes it a lot more fun. Is it? It does what? It makes it a lot more fun. Why? Why is it more fun? Well, you put dynamics where you want to put them. And these were all Darrah's decisions here. These were all her decisions. In other--it was your touch, it was uniquely Darrah. I never played it like this. Every time I-- She felt it didn't go too well. No, but thinking about Scott's point here, more fun, the very fact that, the not too many directions, you know, sometimes the playwright of a play doesn't write too many directions so the actors and the director can have more freedom. Isn't this the way you feel as a performer? I think it's useful, it was a lot of fun, because I never play it two times the same way. I might play legato in one place, and then staccato another, and then I had it all staccato, it might, sometimes the dynamics are always different, and that's why I like it. Could we pursue that just a bit, just what Darrah said, Dr. Duckworth, with David and with Scott? She never plays it the same way twice. This is interesting. You mean the day, you may feel different one day or the next, is that it? Or the day may be a cold day? Well, when I'm mad at my mother I always play it loud, but I always like, I just feel the minute I start it, I feel the reason--well, to say it another way, the music seems to me like a storm out in the ocean, and the minute I start it, up comes the storm, you know? And then at different parts I'm--can make believe it's more of a tragedy and it's getting worse and worse, and then it'll kind of calm down. You know what I mean. It's quite amazing the difference in stories that, between David-- I was thinking that, David saw it as butterflies. I think if it were major, I think the butterfly would come in more soundly, but now it's minor, and maybe a storm is sort of, you know, rough, and no one likes, and minor is sort of like a sad piece. Now, we have some repairs to do here, Studs, that maybe it might be appropriate for us to do right now. Now, Darrah ended up the composition slower than she began it. And, so, it's important for us to find the tempo that is most comfortable for her, so that she can live through this with a more steady tempo. Now, tap the tempo that she finished with, Scott, your impression of the tempo. Maybe the last line, there, maybe? The [unintelligible] notes or what? Yes. I'm not--. Can you remember? It was--David, you try. I remember [taps]. Okay, now would you count that as you tap, David? One and two. Now see, you slowed it down now. [taps] One and two and three and four. Let's see, how many beats now. Oh, one and-- There are-- Two and-- Okay, you do it, Scott. [taps] One and two and three, and one and two and three, and one and two and three, and-- Okay, now let's have her start at that tempo, and see how it goes for just a little while. All right? You tap, and will you please count aloud so she hears you, David and Scott, and so you can help her. Okay? Ready? Go. [plays piano]. Just a moment. [Where?] the count. All right. Count one major, and then she'll start over. One and two--. [Taps]. [plays piano] That's the tempo that approximately that you ended up with. I know, I was kind of stupid at the beginning, because that's the way I was practicing it all week, and I completely forgot. That's what hard about performing. But do you find, Dr. Duckworth was asking you, Darrah, but there's a certain tempo which you find yourself most at ease? You see, I think, isn't that what you were asking? Yes, most at ease in terms of how well her memory is functioning. Most at ease in terms of how well her fingers are functioning for the notes that she is remembering and that's the ease we're concerned about now. Now, we can have more variety in tempos when the memory becomes more precise, and when the fingers become more precise, so we can have a variety of tempos, and say this feels best now for [they?]. But right now we're kind of held to one tempo because of memory and fingers at this point that we want to have. What's on your mind, gentlemen and lady? what do you think now? Well, it just seems, it's kind of hard for me to play solo because of my feelings of the piece, and it's so-- That's hardly a storm at that tempo. You're quite right. You're quite right. It's very nice to see because children relate so strongly to their music. That, you see, you can't fight at that tempo at which Dr. Duckworth thinks, but you're--of course, in your mind you think of that storm, and therefore you think of a more fiery tempo. Well, if I had heard it first at that tempo, then maybe I'd be more at ease playing it at that tempo. Or if you weren't mad at your mother that day. So. Scott, David saw butterflies moving in and out, Darrah say it as a storm, do you, without putting you in any spot or anything, did you see that? In your, any way, any other picture you had? Need not, I don't know. Well, sometimes I have pictures, but lots of times they're different. I can't remember them very well. Scott's ideas about music tend to be related, right, with the vocabulary of music more often, don't they, Scott? I mean, you tend to say what chords they are, or that they, or what notes they are, what have you, whereas Darrah and David have this kind of pictures that have butterflies and storms on their minds. Oh, I do it lots of times, too. Do you? Let's work with this repertoire after "America". Shall we do that? Yeah. Shall we just take a slight pause while the tape is being changed? All right. And then we'll pick up, I want to hear your variations on "America" using the various styles of composures. Okay.

Guy Duckworth

Studs Terkel I'm thinking, Guy, Duckworth, just as--I think Darrah was saying, Darrah or Scott was saying, you were playing songs. You started playing songs. That was a whole thing, something that--

Guy Duckworth Imagine! Songs!

Studs Terkel You imagined songs.

Guy Duckworth No, I mean, I'm saying "Imagine!" We were playing songs in the beginning instead of scales, or-- Oh, it was very easy. Why? Well, we had-- Nursery rhymes, sort of. Yeah, well, of course it would be easy for us now, but I think at the beginning it was a little hard because we had never had anything like that before. You certainly had to work. I was surprised. Because I thought, well, usually it would be just learning songs that I played and fooled around with the piano before. I was thinking, just as you're talking, Darrah, and I'll ask Mr. Duckworth a question here, the, they come in, I know your whole approach we talked about this earlier is the overall design, music, the gestalt, we call it, the overall link, and the whole body is involved in the being of freedom is here. It's not a cut and dried learning one little note at a time unrelated to something else, it's the whole. We hope it's this whole all the time. We tried very hard to make it that way. We depend very much upon intuitive thinking to do it, to make this happen in music, Studs, so we use analogous situations that would help us play the piano, such as clapping, such as walking. We would space in the air melodic lines, we would move up and down for them. We do a lot of singing, too. And then we use the design of the keyboard and the construction of the hands or limiting conditions to tell us how we might do some fingering of a phrase or to play scales. I noticed as you were talking Darrah and Scott, they're closed, there are two pianos here, David is at one piano, and Darrah and Scott at the other piano, and Darrah or Scott closed this piano top. And this is rather interesting, now, if David were to play something now, they would do something on top of the piano, that is, the piano top. Yes, they would feel this, and we might do this right now. David might play his Clementi "Sonatina in C Major", and as he plays, why, Scott and Darrah at the other piano, will be feeling kinesthetically as you have said, how his composition feels in time, as it will. Shall we try it? And you interrupt us if you like. Okay. And this is in what key now, David? C. C major and what are we going to be listening for as we tap here, and as he plays, what are you thinking about, David? Well, the left hand should be controlled and it should be softer than the right hand. Why, Scott? Why should he bother with that? Well, your tune is in the right hand and the left hand is mainly just the same, it's just a chord. So that makes sense, too. To think of it that way. Anything else to be concerned about? Dynamics. Dynamics. Dynamics, staccato and his [rest?]. All right. So we have some things to think about as we tap and listen to you play. [plays piano] Okay. Thank you. I was thinking, David, as you were playing your Clementi, this is the David interpretation of Clementi here, Scott and Darrah, you were doing what, you were drumming, I hope that the audience heard the, your piano, your fingertips upon the top of the piano. What, why were you doing, Darrah, what were you doing? Well, while David feels or plays a piece, we in a way feel it, and it helps David keep his rhythm and it helps us to know what the song is, and what he's playing. Well-- I don't quite--it was [unintelligible], Guy? They were doing the exact rhythms that David was playing, and Darrah stated it very well, that by their tapping and counting, that's going to stabilize his tempo in performance and at the same time they're going to start to realize their own performance in Clementi after they have lived through the timespan as he plays. Am I off here, in saying that whatever it--I forgot that Darrah is one person and Scott is another. Yes. And, so, the way they did it, even though they were doing the same thing, it was different, physically it was a little different. Indeed. Yes. And I think this is what is the beautiful part about these kids being together in a group, that we realize their differences more dramatically this way than if I worked with David by himself, then Scott by himself, then Darrah by herself. I think--do you have much discussion? I notice a certain freedom here, you people, you talk back and forth a lot, too? I never say anything. I think that body, you know, this matter of body. You ever hear of Mahalia Jackson? The spiritual singer? You know what Mahalia says? I'll ask this of Mr. Duckworth and see whether his approach is similar to Mahalia's, says, "I can't sing with my voice alone, it's my whole body, because I have that," she called this "demonstrating." This is, by the way, this is not political, this is musical demonstration. She demonstrates. You ever been to a church and see gospel, how sometimes walk down the aisles, of half dancing, it's the whole body, now is this related to what you're doing, Guy Duckworth? We certainly want it to be. We want to be that lively, that energetic, and that important to every fiber in our bodies and our voices, I think. We try very hard, don't we, Scott? Well, the Bartok that we play at the beginning is very exciting when you get into it, and-- For what reasons? Well, just dynamics and the way it's written. It just makes it interesting. These fifths that Scott was playing here [plays piano], that has a, that's exciting there, the tempo is exciting, the dynamics that you put in so well make it exciting. When you say dynamics, Darrah, what do you mean? Explain to me, a layman. Well, like the sounds. If you want a loud sound or a soft sound. It's soft would be piano, very soft is pianissimo. Mezzo-forte is-- Very loud. It's loud. Why do we bother with those things? It's half-loud, it's kind of-- In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry. We have other means of throwing excitement into our performance, and we have touch controls, too. You mentioned in the Clementi we would want to listen for legato and staccato. And, so, we have exercises, too, to get our fingers going in these directions. Perhaps it might be appropriate for us to do one now. Let's work in D major with our exercise. Show the exercise, David. [plays piano] This is legato. Now continue, this is very smooth. fine. How do you play legato, David? What are you working for as you are playing there? It sounds very good. Well, so your baby--or your small

Studs Terkel

Darrah Cloud Oh, it was very easy.

Studs Terkel Why?

Darrah Cloud Well, we had--

Scott MacMillan

Darrah Cloud Nursery rhymes, sort of. Yeah, well, of course it would be easy for us now, but I think at the beginning it was a little hard because we had never

Guy Duckworth had anything like that before. You certainly had to work.

Darrah Cloud I was surprised. Because I thought, well, usually it would be just learning songs that I played and fooled around with the piano before.

Studs Terkel I was thinking, just as you're talking, Darrah, and I'll ask Mr. Duckworth a question here, the, they come in, I know your whole approach we talked about this earlier is the overall design, music, the gestalt, we call it, the overall link, and the whole body is involved in the being of freedom is here. It's not a cut and dried learning one little note at a time unrelated to something else, it's the whole.

Guy Duckworth We hope it's this whole all the time. We tried very hard to make it that way. We depend very much upon intuitive thinking to do it, to make this happen in music, Studs, so we use analogous situations that would help us play the piano, such as clapping, such as walking. We would space in the air melodic lines, we would move up and down for them. We do a lot of singing, too. And then we use the design of the keyboard and the construction of the hands or limiting conditions to tell us how we might do some fingering of a phrase or to play scales.

Studs Terkel I noticed as you were talking Darrah and Scott, they're closed, there are two pianos here, David is at one piano, and Darrah and Scott at the other piano, and Darrah or Scott closed this piano top. And this is rather interesting, now, if David were to play something now, they would do something on top of the piano, that is, the piano top.

Guy Duckworth Yes, they would feel this, and we might do this right now. David might play his Clementi "Sonatina in C Major", and as he plays, why, Scott and Darrah at the other piano, will be feeling kinesthetically as you have said, how his composition feels in time, as it will. Shall we try it? And you interrupt us if you like. Okay. And this is in what key now,

David Greenberg

Guy Duckworth David? C. C major and what are we going to be listening for as we tap here, and as he plays, what are you thinking about, David?

David Greenberg

Guy Duckworth Well, the left hand should be controlled and it should be softer than the right hand. Why, Scott? Why should he bother with that?

Scott MacMillan Well, your tune is in the right hand and the left hand is mainly just the same, it's just a chord.

Guy Duckworth So that makes sense, too. To think of it that way. Anything else to be concerned about?

Darrah Cloud Dynamics.

Guy Duckworth Dynamics.

Darrah Cloud Dynamics, staccato and his [rest?].

Guy Duckworth All right. So we have some things to think about as we tap and listen to you play.

David Greenberg [plays piano]

Guy Duckworth Okay. Thank you.

Studs Terkel I was thinking, David, as you were playing your Clementi, this is the David interpretation of Clementi here, Scott and Darrah, you were doing what, you were drumming, I hope that the audience heard the, your piano, your fingertips upon the top of the piano. What, why were you doing, Darrah, what were you doing?

Darrah Cloud That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I meant. Instead of something learned--why don't you people tell me, was it coming in, was it kind of slave-work, like? Well, while David feels or plays a piece, we in a way feel it, and it helps David keep his rhythm and it helps us to know what the song is, and what he's playing. Well-- I don't quite--it was [unintelligible], Guy? They were doing the exact rhythms that David was playing, and Darrah stated it very well, that by their tapping and counting, that's going to stabilize his tempo in performance and at the same time they're going to start to realize their own performance in Clementi after they have lived through the timespan as he plays. Am I off here, in saying that whatever it--I forgot that Darrah is one person and Scott is another. Yes. And, so, the way they did it, even though they were doing the same thing, it was different, physically it was a little different. Indeed. Yes. And I think this is what is the beautiful part about these kids being together in a group, that we realize their differences more dramatically this way than if I worked with David by himself, then Scott by himself, then Darrah by herself. I think--do you have much discussion? I notice a certain freedom here, you people, you talk back and forth a lot, too? I never say anything. I think that body, you know, this matter of body. You ever hear of Mahalia Jackson? The spiritual singer? You know what Mahalia says? I'll ask this of Mr. Duckworth and see whether his approach is similar to Mahalia's, says, "I can't sing with my voice alone, it's my whole body, because I have that," she called this "demonstrating." This is, by the way, this is not political, this is musical demonstration. She demonstrates. You ever been to a church and see gospel, how sometimes walk down the aisles, of half dancing, it's the whole body, now is this related to what you're doing, Guy Duckworth? We certainly want it to be. We want to be that lively, that energetic, and that important to every fiber in our bodies and our voices, I think. We try very hard, don't we, Scott? Well, the Bartok that we play at the beginning is very exciting when you get into it, and-- For what reasons? Well, just dynamics and the way it's written. It just makes it interesting. These fifths that Scott was playing here [plays piano], that has a, that's exciting there, the tempo is exciting, the dynamics that you put in so well make it exciting. When you say dynamics, Darrah, what do you mean? Explain to me, a layman. Well, like the sounds. If you want a loud sound or a soft sound. It's soft would be piano, very soft is pianissimo. Mezzo-forte is-- Very loud. It's loud. Why do we bother with those things? It's half-loud, it's kind of-- In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry. We have other means of throwing excitement into our performance, and we have touch controls, too. You mentioned in the Clementi we would want to listen for legato and staccato. And, so, we have exercises, too, to get our fingers going in these directions. Perhaps it might be appropriate for us to do one now. Let's work in D major with our exercise. Show the exercise, David. [plays piano] This is legato. Now continue, this is very smooth. fine. How do you play legato, David? What are you working for as you are playing there? It sounds very good. You're supposed to move your wrists along the finger positions so it's easier to make it sound more smoother, and it's supposed to sound smooth. What does that seem to help, Scott, to do that, or Darrah, would help? Why is the wrist to be flexible as you play? Well, so your baby--or your small fingers. Your baby fingers. Your smaller fingers can get to the other keys and that makes it sound even. It's like you move your hand around. You lengthen your shorter fingers this way. Yes, fine. And anything else that you're thinking about? Well, it's the notes on the right key. Notes on the right. What do you mean? On the right key, you know. Oh, play the right keys, if we're in the key of D. Anything else, Darrah? Play legato. We were talking about dynamics here. Anything else involved? How do we control dynamics to play legato? Well, it's kind of easier to play legato if you're playing if it's a soft or piano dynamic, but that's what we're working toward, getting louder and still being staccato--or I mean, legato. And still being legato. So you can play forte and still make it sound smooth, which is-- Legato is what, again, asking the name, and someone else, one of the students of Mr. Duckworth, was saying, "I think maybe I keep them down longer," the notes, and says, so that's how he was discovering legato. Legato. Legato, what would you say legato, was, tell me, Scott, I ask you, what do you mean when you say legato? Well, it's--the notes are real smooth, and they sort of flow together. Flow together. Flow together. Flow together. The same kind of feeling, they say down longer. Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy? Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire? That sounds good. Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky? All right. Or Darrah? Who put? I'll play. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. Is this a morning practice? This is Tchaikovsky from memory. It's a morning practice. Right. From the album for the young. Shall we tap? It's up to you. What do you want to do, tap or mark? We do other things at the keyboard, that we might to clarify for Studs. What do we mean by marking, Darrah and David? Well, you play along with Scott, except being, except not even playing at all. Being silent at the keyboard, but feeling the keys that he is playing. As though you were--fingers in the air. Yes. Instead of fingers--above the keys, but not touching the keys. Well, touching the keys but not pushing them down. Not pushing them down, but why, why, why doing this? Do you get anything out of it? It's for--so we can feel this, too, along with Scott, and if this is if we were all three playing it together. And, so, in effect, why Scott's learning the "Morning Prayer" by Tchaikovsky, and as he learns it, these two are picking up ideas and they go home and learn by themselves. They've got it. Is that the way it works? Yeah. I think so. I hope so. What were you going to say, Scott? [plays piano]. Oh, that's beautiful. That's lovely, isn't it? Yes, we're all smiling here. I was thinking, Guy Duckworth, teacher, for those who may have tuned in late, we're at a room in Lufkin Hall, part of the music school, school of Northwestern University, Guy Duckworth is head of the Piano Preparatory Department of Northwestern, has this class which I'm sure can be described as pioneering, a whole different technique in teaching piano and as Scott, all three st--three of the, how many students all together? In the department? We have 340. Three hundred forty, young students roughly contemporaries of David and Scott and Darrah. Who range from the age of six through 18. Six through 18, following the Duckworth approach. Well, some have begun here, some haven't. Where they haven't begun here, we try to get this gestalt occurring for those who have other backgrounds, so they are improvising moving to music. I was going to ask Darrah and David, the question as you two were playing soundlessly, you know, your fingers as we heard Scott playing the Tchaikovsky "Morning Prayer", did you hear, what did you hear, Darrah, did you--this is a tough question. I mean, it's a silly one. Were you hearing something in your own ears that was different, you know, was it identical to what Scott was actually playing? Well, that's a good question. Well, what I was marking was the lower notes in the music, where the chords are in the left hand. And that's all I hear. That's what I try to listen for. And let me rephrase the question here. Another way that, did he realize in his performance everything that you wanted from the music as you saw it, or feel the music should go? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Yes. Yes. So you were, you felt satisfied with the performance. Would you do anything different if you were playing the piece? Would you crescendo more than Scott? His use of dynamics was very lovely. But would you do more with him? Would your piano be softer? Well, no two people are alike, so I kind of figure that it probably would be. It would be. And what differences would you find for yourself, David? Well, it would be pretty much the same, but not just, not as good, probably. How humble. You know, later on, you know, when you three are concert artists, I can just imagine you saying that. You probably will, I think that's the point of Guy Duckworth's whole approach, is that there is a certain spirit. Aside from music, Guy, perhaps, obviously music is your instrument. The piano is the extension of the personalities of your students. And, yet, something else happens in your classes, quite obviously, doesn't it? I think we're friendly. But there's more. You feel--as I'm talking to you now, you know, I talk a lot. But Darrah and David and, and Scott, in class with Mr. Duckworth, you don't feel restrained, when you have something to say you say it, often? It's like a family. Because all, all four of us are sitting here, and it's just like we were teaching Dr. Duckworth, Dr. Duckworth at the same time is teaching us. That's very nice. You know something about, something you just said about Dr. Duckworth? You are learning, too, aren't you, in a way? Yes. Very, very definitely. That's very nice, that it comes through to these young ones, that I feel this way, too. What--you go ahead. I'm just eavesdropping here. Okay. Tchaikovsky's written a lot of notes. He said how these notes were to be played, with a legato touch. How else has he said to play it? Scott? Well, there really isn't now as much staccato, I don't think there's hardly any staccato. Well, he wants it played softly, and he wants-- He's told us what dynamics to use. He wants it to sound like a morning prayer, as that's the title. And, so, he's told us the touch, the volume. Some places it's real sort of harsh. What does that tone mean, how fast was it to be played, what was the tempo? Slow. Slow. Slow. Lento. Were these sad, was this a satisfying tempo for you, it was, was realized. It was a beautiful performance, Scott. Thank you. Let's hear some Bach. This is a piece of another character, isn't it, Darrah? Oh, it sure is. Do you guys want to describe it? Your feelings about what this is? Well, it's sort of like-- It's very interesting to get their impressions of what these pieces are like. They're mu--their impressions are much different from yours and mine. As I said before, a few weeks ago, it sounds like a butterfly in the beginning, and then later on sometimes when it gets real loud, maybe the butterfly is coming closer and then, then all of a sudden he goes away, and then it ends. What's your impression, Scott, before we hear it? I think this might be fun to build up some expectancy. I don't know. Do you? What I want to say is, like naturally, after a person plays a piece I could like to criticize and help the person and tell him what to work on and things like that. So let's hear it first. This is Darrah, who plays the Bach. [plays piano] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice use of dynamics. Something very interesting about Baroque music for us is that there's never any touch given to us. We don't know how to play legato or staccato. We don't know whether to play loud or soft or how fast or slow to play. It makes it a lot more fun. Is it? It does what? It makes it a lot more fun. Why? Why is it more fun? Well, you put dynamics where you want to put them. And these were all Darrah's decisions here. These were all her decisions. In other--it was your touch, it was uniquely Darrah. I never played it like this. Every time I-- She felt it didn't go too well. No, but thinking about Scott's point here, more fun, the very fact that, the not too many directions, you know, sometimes the playwright of a play doesn't write too many directions so the actors and the director can have more freedom. Isn't this the way you feel as a performer? I think it's useful, it was a lot of fun, because I never play it two times the same way. I might play legato in one place, and then staccato another, and then I had it all staccato, it might, sometimes the dynamics are always different, and that's why I like it. Could we pursue that just a bit, just what Darrah said, Dr. Duckworth, with David and with Scott? She never plays it the same way twice. This is interesting. You mean the day, you may feel different one day or the next, is that it? Or the day may be a cold day? Well, when I'm mad at my mother I always play it loud, but I always like, I just feel the minute I start it, I feel the reason--well, to say it another way, the music seems to me like a storm out in the ocean, and the minute I start it, up comes the storm, you know? And then at different parts I'm--can make believe it's more of a tragedy and it's getting worse and worse, and then it'll kind of calm down. You know what I mean. It's quite amazing the difference in stories that, between David-- I was thinking that, David saw it as butterflies. I think if it were major, I think the butterfly would come in more soundly, but now it's minor, and maybe a storm is sort of, you know, rough, and no one likes, and minor is sort of like a sad piece. Now, we have some repairs to do here, Studs, that maybe it might be appropriate for us to do right now. Now, Darrah ended up the composition slower than she began it. And, so, it's important for us to find the tempo that is most comfortable for her, so that she can live through this with a more steady tempo. Now, tap the tempo that she finished with, Scott, your impression of the tempo. Maybe the last line, there, maybe? The [unintelligible] notes or what? Yes. I'm not--. Can you remember? It was--David, you try. I remember [taps]. Okay, now would you count that as you tap, David? One and two. Now see, you slowed it down now. [taps] One and two and three and four. Let's see, how many beats now. Oh, one and-- There are-- Two and-- Okay, you do it, Scott. [taps] One and two and three, and one and two and three, and one and two and three, and-- Okay, now let's have her start at that tempo, and see how it goes for just a little while. All right? You tap, and will you please count aloud so she hears you, David and Scott, and so you can help her. Okay? Ready? Go. [plays piano]. Just a moment. [Where?] the count. All right. Count one major, and then she'll start over. One and two--. [Taps]. [plays piano] That's the tempo that approximately that you ended up with. I know, I was kind of stupid at the beginning, because that's the way I was practicing it all week, and I completely forgot. That's what hard about performing. But do you find, Dr. Duckworth was asking you, Darrah, but there's a certain tempo which you find yourself most at ease? You see, I think, isn't that what you were asking? What's on your mind, gentlemen and lady? what do you think now? Well, it just seems, it's kind of hard for me to play solo because of my feelings of the piece, and it's so-- That's hardly a storm at that tempo. You're quite right. You're quite right. It's very nice to see because children relate so strongly to their music. That, you see, you can't fight at that tempo at which Dr. Duckworth thinks, but you're--of course, in your mind you think of that storm, and therefore you think of a more fiery tempo. Well, if I had heard it first at that tempo, then maybe I'd be more at ease playing it at that tempo. Or if you weren't mad at your mother that day. So. Scott, David saw butterflies moving in and out, Darrah say it as a storm, do you, without putting you in any spot or anything, did you see that? In your, any way, any other picture you had? Need not, I don't know. Well, sometimes I have pictures, but lots of times they're different. I can't remember them very well. Scott's ideas about music tend to be related, right, with the vocabulary of music more often, don't they, Scott? I mean, you tend to say what chords they are, or that they, or what notes they are, what have you, whereas Darrah and David have this kind of pictures that have butterflies and storms on their minds. Oh, I do it lots of times, too. Do you? Let's work with this repertoire after "America". Shall we do that? Yeah. Shall we just take a slight pause while the tape is being changed? All right. And then we'll pick up, I want to hear your variations on "America" using the various styles of composures. Okay.

Studs Terkel

Scott MacMillan Well--

Studs Terkel I don't quite--it was [unintelligible], Guy?

Guy Duckworth They were doing the exact rhythms that David was playing, and Darrah stated it very well, that by their tapping and counting, that's going to stabilize his tempo in performance and at the same time they're going to start to realize their own performance in Clementi after they have lived through the timespan as he plays.

Studs Terkel Am I off here, in saying that whatever it--I forgot that Darrah is one person and Scott is another.

Guy Duckworth Yes.

Studs Terkel And, so, the way they did it, even though they were doing the same thing, it was different, physically it was a little different.

Guy Duckworth Indeed. Yes. And I think this is what is the beautiful part about these kids being together in a group, that we realize their differences more dramatically this way than if I worked with David by himself, then Scott by himself, then Darrah by herself.

Studs Terkel I think--do you have much discussion? I notice a certain freedom here, you people, you talk back and forth a lot, too?

Guy Duckworth I never say anything.

Studs Terkel I think that body, you know, this matter of body. You ever hear of Mahalia Jackson? The spiritual singer? You know what Mahalia says? I'll ask this of Mr. Duckworth and see whether his approach is similar to Mahalia's, says, "I can't sing with my voice alone, it's my whole body, because I have that," she called this "demonstrating." This is, by the way, this is not political, this is musical demonstration. She demonstrates. You ever been to a church and see gospel, how sometimes walk down the aisles, of half dancing, it's the whole body, now is this related to what you're doing, Guy Duckworth?

Guy Duckworth We certainly want it to be. We want to be that lively, that energetic, and that important to every fiber in our bodies and our voices, I think. We try very hard, don't

Scott MacMillan we, Scott? Well, the Bartok that we play at the beginning is very exciting when you get into it, and--

Guy Duckworth For what reasons?

Scott MacMillan Well, just dynamics and the way it's written. It just makes it interesting.

Guy Duckworth These fifths that Scott was playing here [plays piano], that has a, that's exciting there, the tempo is exciting, the dynamics that you put in so well make it exciting. Well, like the sounds. If you want a loud sound or a soft sound. It's soft would be piano, very soft is pianissimo. Mezzo-forte is-- Very loud. It's loud. Why do we bother with those things? It's half-loud, it's kind of-- In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry.

Studs Terkel

Darrah Cloud Well, like the sounds. If you want a loud sound or a soft sound. It's soft would be piano, very soft is pianissimo. Mezzo-forte is--

Studs Terkel Very loud. It's half-loud, it's kind of-- In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful.

Darrah Cloud It's loud. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry.

Guy Duckworth

Darrah Cloud It's half-loud, it's kind of--

David Greenberg Eleven and a half. Well, Darrah, you're studying with Dr. Duckworth, now, Mr. Duckworth, for how long? That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I meant. Instead of something learned--why don't you people tell me, was it coming in, was it kind of slave-work, like? And what, Scott, but you were--weren't you, weren't each of you, I know nothing about music, I'm asking this cold, now. Darrah, weren't you, Scott, weren't you and Darrah approaching what David was doing differently? You weren't imitating her, were you? When you say dynamics, Darrah, what do you mean? Explain to me, a layman. It's loud. Why do we bother with those things? In between. Why do we bother with these dynamics? Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful. To throw excitement into it. To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry. We have other means of throwing excitement into our performance, and we have touch controls, too. You mentioned in the Clementi we would want to listen for legato and staccato. And, so, we have exercises, too, to get our fingers going in these directions. Perhaps it might be appropriate for us to do one now. Let's work in D major with our exercise. Show the exercise, David. [plays piano] This is legato. Now continue, this is very smooth. fine. How do you play legato, David? What are you working for as you are playing there? It sounds very good. You're supposed to move your wrists along the finger positions so it's easier to make it sound more smoother, and it's supposed to sound smooth. What does that seem to help, Scott, to do that, or Darrah, would help? Why is the wrist to be flexible as you play? Well, so your baby--or your small fingers. Your baby fingers. Your smaller fingers can get to the other keys and that makes it sound even. It's like you move your hand around. You lengthen your shorter fingers this way. Yes, fine. And anything else that you're thinking about? Well, it's the notes on the right key. Notes on the right. What do you mean? On the right key, you know. Oh, play the right keys, if we're in the key of D. Anything else, Darrah? Play legato. We were talking about dynamics here. Anything else involved? How do we control dynamics to play legato? Well, it's kind of easier to play legato if you're playing if it's a soft or piano dynamic, but that's what we're working toward, getting louder and still being staccato--or I mean, legato. And still being legato. So you can play forte and still make it sound smooth, which is-- Legato is what, again, asking the name, and someone else, one of the students of Mr. Duckworth, was saying, "I think maybe I keep them down longer," the notes, and says, so that's how he was discovering legato. Legato. Legato, what would you say legato, was, tell me, Scott, I ask you, what do you mean when you say legato? Well, it's--the notes are real smooth, and they sort of flow together. Flow together. Flow together. Flow together. The same kind of feeling, they say down longer. Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy? Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire? That sounds good. Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky? All right. Or Darrah? Who put? I'll play. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. Is this a morning practice? This is Tchaikovsky from memory. It's a morning practice. Right. From the album for the young. Shall we tap? It's up to you. What do you want to do, tap or mark? We do other things at the keyboard, that we might to clarify for Studs. What do we mean by marking, Darrah and David? Well, you play along with Scott, except being, except not even playing at all. Being silent at the keyboard, but feeling the keys that he is playing. As though you were--fingers in the air. Yes. Instead of fingers--above the keys, but not touching the keys. Well, touching the keys but not pushing them down. Not pushing them down, but why, why, why doing this? Do you get anything out of it? It's for--so we can feel this, too, along with Scott, and if this is if we were all three playing it together. And, so, in effect, why Scott's learning the "Morning Prayer" by Tchaikovsky, and as he learns it, these two are picking up ideas and they go home and learn by themselves. They've got it. Is that the way it works? Yeah. I think so. I hope so. What were you going to say, Scott? [plays piano]. Oh, that's beautiful. That's lovely, isn't it? Yes, we're all smiling here. I was thinking, Guy Duckworth, teacher, for those who may have tuned in late, we're at a room in Lufkin Hall, part of the music school, school of Northwestern University, Guy Duckworth is head of the Piano Preparatory Department of Northwestern, has this class which I'm sure can be described as pioneering, a whole different technique in teaching piano and as Scott, all three st--three of the, how many students all together? In the department? We have 340. Three hundred forty, young students roughly contemporaries of David and Scott and Darrah. Who range from the age of six through 18. Six through 18, following the Duckworth approach. Well, some have begun here, some haven't. Where they haven't begun here, we try to get this gestalt occurring for those who have other backgrounds, so they are improvising moving to music. I was going to ask Darrah and David, the question as you two were playing soundlessly, you know, your fingers as we heard Scott playing the Tchaikovsky "Morning Prayer", did you hear, what did you hear, Darrah, did you--this is a tough question. I mean, it's a silly one. Were you hearing something in your own ears that was different, you know, was it identical to what Scott was actually playing? Well, that's a good question. Well, what I was marking was the lower notes in the music, where the chords are in the left hand. And that's all I hear. That's what I try to listen for. And let me rephrase the question here. Another way that, did he realize in his performance everything that you wanted from the music as you saw it, or feel the music should go? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Yes. Yes. So you were, you felt satisfied with the performance. Would you do anything different if you were playing the piece? Would you crescendo more than Scott? His use of dynamics was very lovely. But would you do more with him? Would your piano be softer? Well, no two people are alike, so I kind of figure that it probably would be. It would be. And what differences would you find for yourself, David? Well, it would be pretty much the same, but not just, not as good, probably. How humble. You know, later on, you know, when you three are concert artists, I can just imagine you saying that. You probably will, I think that's the point of Guy Duckworth's whole approach, is that there is a certain spirit. Aside from music, Guy, perhaps, obviously music is your instrument. The piano is the extension of the personalities of your students. And, yet, something else happens in your classes, quite obviously, doesn't it? I think we're friendly. But there's more. You feel--as I'm talking to you now, you know, I talk a lot. But Darrah and David and, and Scott, in class with Mr. Duckworth, you don't feel restrained, when you have something to say you say it, often? It's like a family. Because all, all four of us are sitting here, and it's just like we were teaching Dr. Duckworth, Dr. Duckworth at the same time is teaching us. That's very nice. You know something about, something you just said about Dr. Duckworth? You are learning, too, aren't you, in a way? Yes. Very, very definitely. That's very nice, that it comes through to these young ones, that I feel this way, too. What--you go ahead. I'm just eavesdropping here. Okay. Tchaikovsky's written a lot of notes. He said how these notes were to be played, with a legato touch. How else has he said to play it? Scott? Well, there really isn't now as much staccato, I don't think there's hardly any staccato. Well, he wants it played softly, and he wants-- He's told us what dynamics to use. He wants it to sound like a morning prayer, as that's the title. And, so, he's told us the touch, the volume. Some places it's real sort of harsh. What does that tone mean, how fast was it to be played, what was the tempo? Slow. Slow. Slow. Lento. Were these sad, was this a satisfying tempo for you, it was, was realized. It was a beautiful performance, Scott. Thank you. Let's hear some Bach. This is a piece of another character, isn't it, Darrah? Oh, it sure is. Do you guys want to describe it? Your feelings about what this is? Well, it's sort of like-- It's very interesting to get their impressions of what these pieces are like. They're mu--their impressions are much different from yours and mine. As I said before, a few weeks ago, it sounds like a butterfly in the beginning, and then later on sometimes when it gets real loud, maybe the butterfly is coming closer and then, then all of a sudden he goes away, and then it ends. What's your impression, Scott, before we hear it? I think this might be fun to build up some expectancy. I don't know. Do you? What I want to say is, like naturally, after a person plays a piece I could like to criticize and help the person and tell him what to work on and things like that. So let's hear it first. This is Darrah, who plays the Bach. [plays piano] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice use of dynamics. Something very interesting about Baroque music for us is that there's never any touch given to us. We don't know how to play legato or staccato. We don't know whether to play loud or soft or how fast or slow to play. It makes it a lot more fun. Is it? It does what? It makes it a lot more fun. Why? Why is it more fun? Well, you put dynamics where you want to put them. And these were all Darrah's decisions here. These were all her decisions. In other--it was your touch, it was uniquely Darrah. I never played it like this. Every time I-- She felt it didn't go too well. No, but thinking about Scott's point here, more fun, the very fact that, the not too many directions, you know, sometimes the playwright of a play doesn't write too many directions so the actors and the director can have more freedom. Isn't this the way you feel as a performer? I think it's useful, it was a lot of fun, because I never play it two times the same way. I might play legato in one place, and then staccato another, and then I had it all staccato, it might, sometimes the dynamics are always different, and that's why I like it. Could we pursue that just a bit, just what Darrah said, Dr. Duckworth, with David and with Scott? She never plays it the same way twice. This is interesting. You mean the day, you may feel different one day or the next, is that it? Or the day may be a cold day? Well, when I'm mad at my mother I always play it loud, but I always like, I just feel the minute I start it, I feel the reason--well, to say it another way, the music seems to me like a storm out in the ocean, and the minute I start it, up comes the storm, you know? And then at different parts I'm--can make believe it's more of a tragedy and it's getting worse and worse, and then it'll kind of calm down. You know what I mean. It's quite amazing the difference in stories that, between David-- I was thinking that, David saw it as butterflies. I think if it were major, I think the butterfly would come in more soundly, but now it's minor, and maybe a storm is sort of, you know, rough, and no one likes, and minor is sort of like a sad piece. Now, we have some repairs to do here, Studs, that maybe it might be appropriate for us to do right now. Now, Darrah ended up the composition slower than she began it. And, so, it's important for us to find the tempo that is most comfortable for her, so that she can live through this with a more steady tempo. Now, tap the tempo that she finished with, Scott, your impression of the tempo. Maybe the last line, there, maybe? The [unintelligible] notes or what? Yes. I'm not--. Can you remember? It was--David, you try. I remember [taps]. Okay, now would you count that as you tap, David? One and two. Now see, you slowed it down now. [taps] One and two and three and four. Let's see, how many beats now. Oh, one and-- There are-- Two and-- Okay, you do it, Scott. [taps] One and two and three, and one and two and three, and one and two and three, and-- Okay, now let's have her start at that tempo, and see how it goes for just a little while. All right? You tap, and will you please count aloud so she hears you, David and Scott, and so you can help her. Okay? Ready? Go. [plays piano]. Just a moment. [Where?] the count. All right. Count one major, and then she'll start over. One and two--. [Taps]. [plays piano] That's the tempo that approximately that you ended up with. I know, I was kind of stupid at the beginning, because that's the way I was practicing it all week, and I completely forgot. That's what hard about performing. But do you find, Dr. Duckworth was asking you, Darrah, but there's a certain tempo which you find yourself most at ease? You see, I think, isn't that what you were asking? Yes, most at ease in terms of how well her memory is functioning. Most at ease in terms of how well her fingers are functioning for the notes that she is remembering and that's the ease we're concerned about now. Now, we can have more variety in tempos when the memory becomes more precise, and when the fingers become more precise, so we can have a variety of tempos, and say this feels best now for [they?]. But right now we're kind of held to one tempo because of memory and fingers at this point that we want to have. What's on your mind, gentlemen and lady? what do you think now? Well, it just seems, it's kind of hard for me to play solo because of my feelings of the piece, and it's so-- That's hardly a storm at that tempo. You're quite right. You're quite right. It's very nice to see because children relate so strongly to their music. That, you see, you can't fight at that tempo at which Dr. Duckworth thinks, but you're--of course, in your mind you think of that storm, and therefore you think of a more fiery tempo. Well, if I had heard it first at that tempo, then maybe I'd be more at ease playing it at that tempo. Or if you weren't mad at your mother that day. So. Scott, David saw butterflies moving in and out, Darrah say it as a storm, do you, without putting you in any spot or anything, did you see that? In your, any way, any other picture you had? Need not, I don't know. Well, sometimes I have pictures, but lots of times they're different. I can't remember them very well. Scott's ideas about music tend to be related, right, with the vocabulary of music more often, don't they, Scott? I mean, you tend to say what chords they are, or that they, or what notes they are, what have you, whereas Darrah and David have this kind of pictures that have butterflies and storms on their minds. Oh, I do it lots of times, too. Do you? Let's work with this repertoire after "America". Shall we do that? Yeah. Shall we just take a slight pause while the tape is being changed? All right. And then we'll pick up, I want to hear your variations on "America" using the various styles of composures. Okay.

Darrah Cloud

Guy Duckworth Why do we bother with these dynamics?

David Greenberg It's Well, to make the sound, to make the music more colorful.

Darrah Cloud To throw excitement into it.

Studs Terkel When you say dynamics, Darrah, what do you mean? Explain to me, a layman. loud. Why do we bother with those things? To throw excitement into it? I like that. What were you going to say, Scott? I'm sorry.

Guy Duckworth We have other means of throwing excitement into our performance, and we have touch controls, too. You mentioned in the Clementi we would want to listen for legato and staccato. And, so, we have exercises, too, to get our fingers going in these directions. Perhaps it might be appropriate for us to do one now. Let's work in D major with our exercise. Show the exercise, David.

David Greenberg [plays piano]

Guy Duckworth That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I meant. Instead of something learned--why don't you people tell me, was it coming in, was it kind of slave-work, like? This is legato. Now continue, this is very smooth. fine. How do you play legato, David? What are you working for as you are playing there? It sounds very good. What does that seem to help, Scott, to do that, or Darrah, would help? Why is the wrist to be flexible as you play? Well, so your baby--or your small fingers. Your baby fingers. Your smaller fingers can get to the other keys and that makes it sound even. It's like you move your hand around. You lengthen your shorter fingers this way. Yes, fine. And anything else that you're thinking about? Well, it's the notes on the right key. Notes on the right. What do you mean? On the right key, you know. Oh, play the right keys, if we're in the key of D. Anything else, Darrah? Play legato. We were talking about dynamics here. Anything else involved? How do we control dynamics to play legato? Well, it's kind of easier to play legato if you're playing if it's a soft or piano dynamic, but that's what we're working toward, getting louder and still being staccato--or I mean, legato. And still being legato. So you can play forte and still make it sound smooth, which is-- Legato is what, again, asking the name, and someone else, one of the students of Mr. Duckworth, was saying, "I think maybe I keep them down longer," the notes, and says, so that's how he was discovering legato. Legato. Legato, what would you say legato, was, tell me, Scott, I ask you, what do you mean when you say legato? Well, it's--the notes are real smooth, and they sort of flow together. Flow together. Flow together. Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy? Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire? That sounds good. Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky? All right. Or Darrah? Who put? I'll play. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. Right. From the album for the young.

David Greenberg

Guy Duckworth

Darrah Cloud That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I meant. Instead of something learned--why don't you people tell me, was it coming in, was it kind of slave-work, like? Well, so your baby--or your small fingers.

Studs Terkel Your baby fingers.

Darrah Cloud What does that seem to help, Scott, to do that, or Darrah, would help? Why is the wrist to be flexible as you play? Your smaller fingers can get to the other keys and that makes it sound even.

David Greenberg It's like you move your hand

Guy Duckworth around. You lengthen your shorter fingers this way. Yes, fine. And anything else that you're thinking about?

David Greenberg Well, it's the notes on the right key.

Guy Duckworth

David Greenberg

Guy Duckworth Notes on the right. What do you mean? On the right key, you know. Oh, play the right keys, if we're in the key of D. Anything else, Darrah? Play legato. We were

Darrah Cloud talking about dynamics here. Anything else involved? How do we control dynamics to play legato? Well, it's kind of easier to play legato if you're playing if it's a soft or piano dynamic, but that's what we're working toward, getting louder and still being staccato--or I mean, legato.

Guy Duckworth And still being legato. So you can play forte and still make it sound smooth, which is--

Studs Terkel Legato is what, again, asking the name, and someone else, one of the students of Mr. Duckworth, was saying, "I think maybe I keep them down longer," the notes, and says, so that's how he was discovering legato. Legato. Legato, what would you say legato, was, tell me, Scott, I ask you, what do you mean when you say legato?

Scott MacMillan Well, it's--the notes are real smooth, and they sort of flow together.

Guy Duckworth Flow together.

Studs Terkel You're supposed to move your wrists along the finger positions so it's easier to make it sound more smoother, and it's supposed to sound smooth. Flow together. Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy? Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire? That sounds good. Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky? All right. Or Darrah? Who put? I'll play. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. Is this a morning practice? This is Tchaikovsky from memory. It's a morning practice. Right. From the album for the young. Shall we tap? It's up to you. What do you want to do, tap or mark? We do other things at the keyboard, that we might to clarify for Studs. What do we mean by marking, Darrah and David? Well, you play along with Scott, except being, except not even playing at all. Being silent at the keyboard, but feeling the keys that he is playing. As though you were--fingers in the air. Yes. Instead of fingers--above the keys, but not touching the keys. Well, touching the keys but not pushing them down. Not pushing them down, but why, why, why doing this? Do you get anything out of it? It's for--so we can feel this, too, along with Scott, and if this is if we were all three playing it together. And, so, in effect, why Scott's learning the "Morning Prayer" by Tchaikovsky, and as he learns it, these two are picking up ideas and they go home and learn by themselves. They've got it. Is that the way it works? Yeah. I think so. I hope so. What were you going to say, Scott? [plays piano]. Oh, that's beautiful. That's lovely, isn't it? Yes, we're all smiling here. I was thinking, Guy Duckworth, teacher, for those who may have tuned in late, we're at a room in Lufkin Hall, part of the music school, school of Northwestern University, Guy Duckworth is head of the Piano Preparatory Department of Northwestern, has this class which I'm sure can be described as pioneering, a whole different technique in teaching piano and as Scott, all three st--three of the, how many students all together? In the department? We have 340. Three hundred forty, young students roughly contemporaries of David and Scott and Darrah. Who range from the age of six through 18. Six through 18, following the Duckworth approach. Well, some have begun here, some haven't. Where they haven't begun here, we try to get this gestalt occurring for those who have other backgrounds, so they are improvising moving to music. I was going to ask Darrah and David, the question as you two were playing soundlessly, you know, your fingers as we heard Scott playing the Tchaikovsky "Morning Prayer", did you hear, what did you hear, Darrah, did you--this is a tough question. I mean, it's a silly one. Were you hearing something in your own ears that was different, you know, was it identical to what Scott was actually playing? Well, that's a good question. Well, what I was marking was the lower notes in the music, where the chords are in the left hand. And that's all I hear. That's what I try to listen for. And let me rephrase the question here. Another way that, did he realize in his performance everything that you wanted from the music as you saw it, or feel the music should go? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Yes. Yes. So you were, you felt satisfied with the performance. Would you do anything different if you were playing the piece? Would you crescendo more than Scott? His use of dynamics was very lovely. But would you do more with him? Would your piano be softer? Well, no two people are alike, so I kind of figure that it probably would be. It would be. And what differences would you find for yourself, David? Well, it would be pretty much the same, but not just, not as good, probably. How humble. You know, later on, you know, when you three are concert artists, I can just imagine you saying that. You probably will, I think that's the point of Guy Duckworth's whole approach, is that there is a certain spirit. Aside from music, Guy, perhaps, obviously music is your instrument. The piano is the extension of the personalities of your students. And, yet, something else happens in your classes, quite obviously, doesn't it? I think we're friendly. But there's more. You feel--as I'm talking to you now, you know, I talk a lot. But Darrah and David and, and Scott, in class with Mr. Duckworth, you don't feel restrained, when you have something to say you say it, often? It's like a family. Because all, all four of us are sitting here, and it's just like we were teaching Dr. Duckworth, Dr. Duckworth at the same time is teaching us. That's very nice. You know something about, something you just said about Dr. Duckworth? You are learning, too, aren't you, in a way? Yes. Very, very definitely. That's very nice, that it comes through to these young ones, that I feel this way, too. Okay. Tchaikovsky's written a lot of notes. He said how these notes were to be played, with a legato touch. How else has he said to play it? Scott? Well, there really isn't now as much staccato, I don't think there's hardly any staccato. Well, he wants it played softly, and he wants-- He's told us what dynamics to use. He wants it to sound like a morning prayer, as that's the title. And, so, he's told us the touch, the volume. Some places it's real sort of harsh. What does that tone mean, how fast was it to be played, what was the tempo? Slow. Slow. Lento. Were these sad, was this a satisfying tempo for you, it was, was realized. It was a beautiful performance, Scott. Thank you. Let's hear some Bach. This is a piece of another character, isn't it, Darrah? Oh, it sure is. Do you guys want to describe it? Your feelings about what this is? Well, it's sort of like-- It's very interesting to get their impressions of what these pieces are like. They're mu--their impressions are much different from yours and mine. As I said before, a few weeks ago, it sounds like a butterfly in the beginning, and then later on sometimes when it gets real loud, maybe the butterfly is coming closer and then, then all of a sudden he goes away, and then it ends. What's your impression, Scott, before we hear it? I think this might be fun to build up some expectancy. I don't know. Do you? What I want to say is, like naturally, after a person plays a piece I could like to criticize and help the person and tell him what to work on and things like that. So let's hear it first. This is Darrah, who plays the Bach. [plays piano] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice use of dynamics. Something very interesting about Baroque music for us is that there's never any touch given to us. We don't know how to play legato or staccato. We don't know whether to play loud or soft or how fast or slow to play. It makes it a lot more fun. Is it? It does what? It makes it a lot more fun. Why? Why is it more fun? Well, you put dynamics where you want to put them. And these were all Darrah's decisions here. These were all her decisions. In other--it was your touch, it was uniquely Darrah. I never played it like this. Every time I-- She felt it didn't go too well. No, but thinking about Scott's point here, more fun, the very fact that, the not too many directions, you know, sometimes the playwright of a play doesn't write too many directions so the actors and the director can have more freedom. Isn't this the way you feel as a performer? I think it's useful, it was a lot of fun, because I never play it two times the same way. I might play legato in one place, and then staccato another, and then I had it all staccato, it might, sometimes the dynamics are always different, and that's why I like it. Could we pursue that just a bit, just what Darrah said, Dr. Duckworth, with David and with Scott? She never plays it the same way twice. This is interesting. You mean the day, you may feel different one day or the next, is that it? Or the day may be a cold day? It's quite amazing the difference in stories that, between David-- I was thinking that, David saw it as butterflies. I think if it were major, I think the butterfly would come in more soundly, but now it's minor, and maybe a storm is sort of, you know, rough, and no one likes, and minor is sort of like a sad piece. Now, we have some repairs to do here, Studs, that maybe it might be appropriate for us to do right now. Now, Darrah ended up the composition slower than she began it. And, so, it's important for us to find the tempo that is most comfortable for her, so that she can live through this with a more steady tempo. Now, tap the tempo that she finished with, Scott, your impression of the tempo. Maybe the last line, there, maybe? The [unintelligible] notes or what? Yes. I'm not--. Can you remember? It was--David, you try. I remember [taps]. Okay, now would you count that as you tap, David? One and two. Now see, you slowed it down now. [taps] One and two and three and four. Let's see, how many beats now. Oh, one and-- There are-- Two and-- Okay, you do it, Scott. [taps] One and two and three, and one and two and three, and one and two and three, and-- Okay, now let's have her start at that tempo, and see how it goes for just a little while. All right? You tap, and will you please count aloud so she hears you, David and Scott, and so you can help her. Okay? Ready? Go. [plays piano]. Just a moment. [Where?] the count. All right. Count one major, and then she'll start over. One and two--. [Taps]. [plays piano] That's the tempo that approximately that you ended up with. I know, I was kind of stupid at the beginning, because that's the way I was practicing it all week, and I completely forgot. That's what hard about performing. But do you find, Dr. Duckworth was asking you, Darrah, but there's a certain tempo which you find yourself most at ease? You see, I think, isn't that what you were asking? What's on your mind, gentlemen and lady? what do you think now? Well, it just seems, it's kind of hard for me to play solo because of my feelings of the piece, and it's so-- That, you see, you can't fight at that tempo at which Dr. Duckworth thinks, but you're--of course, in your mind you think of that storm, and therefore you think of a more fiery tempo. Well, if I had heard it first at that tempo, then maybe I'd be more at ease playing it at that tempo. Or if you weren't mad at your mother that day. So. Scott, David saw butterflies moving in and out, Darrah say it as a storm, do you, without putting you in any spot or anything, did you see that? In your, any way, any other picture you had? Need not, I don't know. Well, sometimes I have pictures, but lots of times they're different. I can't remember them very well. Scott's ideas about music tend to be related, right, with the vocabulary of music more often, don't they, Scott? I mean, you tend to say what chords they are, or that they, or what notes they are, what have you, whereas Darrah and David have this kind of pictures that have butterflies and storms on their minds. Oh, I do it lots of times, too. Do you? Let's work with this repertoire after "America". Shall we do that? Yeah. Shall we just take a slight pause while the tape is being changed? All right. And then we'll pick up, I want to hear your variations on "America" using the various styles of composures. Okay.

Guy Duckworth

Studs Terkel Stay down longer. What--Well, you, what shall we do, Guy? Now here are three musicians at work here, having, feeling pretty good on this nice autumn day, it's sort of Indian summer. What do you suggest, Guy?

Guy Duckworth Well, we might continue with our repertoire and then show how we understand the repertoire by playing "America" after Clementi, for example, or and then "America" after, there is Bach and Tchaikovsky. Would you like to go on and hear the repertoire?

Studs Terkel That sounds good.

Guy Duckworth Scott, would you play your Tchaikovsky?

Scott MacMillan All right.

Guy Duckworth Or Darrah? Who put?

Scott MacMillan I'll play.

Guy Duckworth Eleven and a half. Well, Darrah, you're studying with Dr. Duckworth, now, Mr. Duckworth, for how long? And what, Scott, but you were--weren't you, weren't each of you, I know nothing about music, I'm asking this cold, now. Darrah, weren't you, Scott, weren't you and Darrah approaching what David was doing differently? You weren't imitating her, were you? In between. You're supposed to move your wrists along the finger positions so it's easier to make it sound more smoother, and it's supposed to sound smooth. Flow together. The same kind of feeling, they say down longer. Who would like to play? All right. Fine. This piano would be good. And we decided we'll do these from memory. Is this a morning practice? This is Tchaikovsky from memory. It's a morning practice. Right. From the album for the young. Shall we tap? It's up to you. What do you want to do, tap or mark? We do other things at the keyboard, that we might to clarify for Studs. What do we mean by marking, Darrah and David? Well, you play along with Scott, except being, except not even playing at all. Being silent at the keyboard, but feeling the keys that he is playing. As though you were--fingers in the air. Yes. Instead of fingers--above the keys, but not touching the keys. Well, touching the keys but not pushing them down. Not pushing them down, but why, why, why doing this? Do you get anything out of it? It's for--so we can feel this, too, along with Scott, and if this is if we were all three playing it together. And, so, in effect, why Scott's learning the "Morning Prayer" by Tchaikovsky, and as he learns it, these two are picking up ideas and they go home and learn by themselves. They've got it. Is that the way it works? Yeah. I think so. I hope so. What were you going to say, Scott? [plays piano]. Oh, that's beautiful. That's lovely, isn't it? Yes, we're all smiling here. I was thinking, Guy Duckworth, teacher, for those who may have tuned in late, we're at a room in Lufkin Hall, part of the music school, school of Northwestern University, Guy Duckworth is head of the Piano Preparatory Department of Northwestern, has this class which I'm sure can be described as pioneering, a whole different technique in teaching piano and as Scott, all three st--three of the, how many students all together? In the department? We have 340. Three hundred forty, young students roughly contemporaries of David and Scott and Darrah. Who range from the age of six through 18. Six through 18, following the Duckworth approach. Well, some have begun here, some haven't. Where they haven't begun here, we try to get this gestalt occurring for those who have other backgrounds, so they are improvising moving to music. I was going to ask Darrah and David, the question as you two were playing soundlessly, you know, your fingers as we heard Scott playing the Tchaikovsky "Morning Prayer", did you hear, what did you hear, Darrah, did you--this is a tough question. I mean, it's a silly one. Were you hearing something in your own ears that was different, you know, was it identical to what Scott was actually playing? Well, that's a good question. Well, what I was marking was the lower notes in the music, where the chords are in the left hand. And that's all I hear. That's what I try to listen for. And let me rephrase the question here. Another way that, did he realize in his performance everything that you wanted from the music as you saw it, or feel the music should go? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Yes. Yes. So you were, you felt satisfied with the performance. Would you do anything different if you were playing the piece? Would you crescendo more than Scott? His use of dynamics was very lovely. But would you do more with him? Would your piano be softer? Well, no two people are alike, so I kind of figure that it probably would be. It would be. And what differences would you find for yourself, David? Well, it would be pretty much the same, but not just, not as good, probably. How humble. You know, later on, you know, when you three are concert artists, I can just imagine you saying that. You probably will, I think that's the point of Guy Duckworth's whole approach, is that there is a certain spirit. Aside from music, Guy, perhaps, obviously music is your instrument. The piano is the extension of the personalities of your students. And, yet, something else happens in your classes, quite obviously, doesn't it? I think we're friendly. But there's more. You feel--as I'm talking to you now, you know, I talk a lot. But Darrah and David and, and Scott, in class with Mr. Duckworth, you don't feel restrained, when you have something to say you say it, often? It's like a family. Because all, all four of us are sitting here, and it's just like we were teaching Dr. Duckworth, Dr. Duckworth at the same time is teaching us. That's very nice. You know something about, something you just said about Dr. D