Ernest Morgan discusses the Arthur Morgan School in Burnesville, NC with Studs Terkel

Studs Terkel Obviously something is wrong with our educational system. I think more and more parents, as well as students, seem to agree to this. What happens to a child when he goes to school? Is he really, does he become fulfilled as a person? Is the school a way of helping him realize his possibilities? Public schools, private schools. Around the table are four people directly related to a remarkable school in the hills of North Carolina, the Arthur Morgan School. Mrs. Jenifer Schroeder, the daughter of the two people who founded the school, Ernest and Elizabeth Morgan, educators, is here. Arthur Morgan her grandfather is a remarkable man, of whom we'll hear a good deal during this conversation. Mr. and Mrs. Robert Moore are parents of Preston, who is 13, who attends this school, Arthur Morgan School. Before we hear about this school and it's no doubt related in some way to John Dewey's approach to education, participatory education on the part of the students, related in some way to A. S. Neill, Summerhill. There's a short story. We know that education and the stunting of the spiritual, the [developmental?] growth of the young has been on the minds of many people, was the minds of Carl Ewald, the great Danish writer of the turn of the century, some 70 years ago, and his classic short story, "My Little Boy". He's been teaching his boy, who is four, five years old, about life, reverence for life. And then finally he's six and he's sending him off to school. We hear the last part of this story. [He recites.] "My little boy is to go to school. 'We can't keep him at home any longer,' says his mother. He himself is glad to go, of course, because he does not know what school is. I know what it is. And I know also there's no escape for him, that he must go, and I'm sick at heart. All that is good within me revolts against the inevitable. So we go for our last morning walk along the road where so many wonderful things have happened to us. He looks at me as if the trees have crepe wound 'round their tops and the birds sing in a minor key, and the people stare at me with earnest and sympathetic eyes. My little boy, though, sees nothing. He's only excited at the prospect. He talks and ask questions without stopping. We sit down on the edge of our usual ditch, alas, that ditch, and suddenly my heart triumphs over my understanding, the voice of my clear conscience penetrates through the whole well-trained harmonious choir, which is to give the concert, and it sings its solo in the ears of my little boy. 'I want to tell you that school is a horrid place,' I say. You have no conception of what you'll have to put up with there. They'll tell you two and two are four.' 'Mother has taught me that already,' he says blithely. 'Yes, but that's wrong, you poor wretch,' I cry. 'Two and two are never four, or only very seldom, and that's not all. They will try to make you believe that Tehran is the capital of Persia, the Mont Blanc is 15,781 feet high, and you'll take them at their word. But I tell you, both Tehran and Persia are nothing at all, an empty sound, a stupid joke, and Mont Blanc is not half as big as, as the mound in the tallow chandler's back garden. And listen: you will never have any more time to play in the courtyard with Einar. When he shouts for you to come out, you'll have to sit and read about a lot of horrible old Kings who've been dead for hundreds and hundreds of years, if they ever existed at all, which I for my part simply don't believe.' My little boy does not understand me, but he sees that I am sad, and he puts his hand in mine. 'Mother says you must go to school to become a clever boy,' he says. 'Mother says that Einar is ever so much too small and stupid to go to school.' I bow my head and nod and say nothing, and I take him to school and see how he storms up the steps without so much as turning his head to look back at me." [music plays as recitation ends] This is toward the last part of the short story. Naturally we think of the imprisoning aspect of the traditional school, as it has effect on so many. Now, Mrs. Schroeder, your grandfather Arthur Morgan, after whom this particular school in the hills of North Carolina is named, had other ideas then. You know this story, of course.

Jenifer Schroeder Yes, yes. Oh, well, of course the whole idea of the school is that life should be the school, and the school should be life, and it should be a community where people work and study and learn and live together and not something where just--facts are crammed in as though that were the important thing to learn in life, because the important thing to learn in life is how to live. And the facts will come after.

Studs Terkel Thinking about your mother and father, your mother Elizabeth, your father Arthur Morgan-- your father, Ernest Morgan. How, how they conceived--why this school and where?

Jenifer Schroeder Well, they conceived the school, I think, based on the ideas of my grandfather who's in the line, probably more unconscious than conscious of Dewey and Pestalozzi and Froebel, as a place where children learn through, through living, and they learn an ethical orientation to life. The idea that man is a social creature who will sink or swim according to the quality of the society that he lives in and that this type of orientation and learning is, is what's going to be necessary for the full growth of the individual as well as for the preservation of the society in the long run. They picked this particular location, the mountains of North Carolina, because there is a kind of a spiritual exaltation, that's a little bit of a strong word, but it has a very serene quality to it, a kind of timeless meditative quality to it that does allow the staff and the students to be apart from the hurly-burly and some of the undesirable, possibly, qualities of our civilization, our culture, and to make a way of their own that incorporates some of the longer-range values. And they picked the age, it's a junior high school, it's for children in the seventh, eighth, and ninth grades, because they feel that at this time the children are old enough and have mastered enough so that they're looking around them, fresh, with fresh eyes, they're not jaded and haven't got their minds set. But they are concerned with the basic issues of where they're going, what they're going to be when they grow up, what the society is. So they felt it was an opportune age. It was started actually in 1962. Although they had worked before that, gradually developing their ideas and developing the plant for the school through work camps, summer work camps with the children. And in '62 they finally launched out. They have about 20 or 25 students who board. They come from all over the country, it's an interracial school, interfaith school. The very idea of it is to learn to live with and cope with the complexity of life, and for this purpose they don't attempt to shut out anything.

Studs Terkel Well, before I ask Preston Moore, 13, about his adventures there, and he's, he's a veteran of public school, and he spent a couple of years at the Arthur Morgan School. His parents, Mr. and Mrs. Robert Moore, Bob Moore, yourself--why, why did you and Mrs. Moore think of this place?

Robert Moore Well, we, number one we realized that the public schools were, were not able to do the job. And we felt that it was necessary to seek out some kind of institution to help us educate our children. And through the Reverend Fred Cappuccino and Bonnie Cappuccino, who at one time lived in Chicago, they introduced us to this school because they had a daughter named Machiko attending. And they gave us, they sent a catalogue, and we also talked with Fred and Bonnie about the school and we thought, this school was interested in educating the whole child. This was, this is what we were looking for, not only academically, which we know we--our children need academics in this life we live. But also they must learn how to socialize and they must know themselves. They must, they must have respect for the other person. They must learn these democratic behaviors early in life, and we felt that the Arthur Morgan School was moving in that direction.

Studs Terkel I'm thinking, Mrs. Moore, I notice you've been reading the book, the booklet about the school. It's called "Education for Learning to Live Together" by Burton Gorman, and there are marks of yours, I've been peeking at your book, and you marked certain parts in it. You know, that "The glory of each individual human life was underemphasized in a society obsessed with the production possession of material things," and here's teaching of concern for others and the responsibility of one to a community. You were marking these, you know. You've visited the school?

Mrs. Robert Moore Oh, yes. Yes. We visited the school for two or three summers before we sent the children there. At that time, they had summer camp for interested people and parents, so that they could get a flavor of the school before sending the children there, and also for parents who already had children there. If you visited the school, then you could really see how they carry out the philosophy of the school. And I thought it was interesting.

Studs Terkel Of course, you knew the teachers, too. You got to meet and know the teachers.

Mrs. Robert Moore Yes, some of the teachers were there during the summer.

Studs Terkel Now, before--Preston was 13. Before, Preston, you went there, you were attending public school in Chicago?

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel What's the difference, do you see?

Preston Moore Well, in Arthur Morgan school, you kind of--it's, well, working with the teacher, finding out what you're learning. And, like, in public schools, she's just talking away, you're supposed to be, trying to memorize all this but, you're really working with your--finding out your ideas and, like--finding out your ideas like--he wouldn't just tell you, you'd kind of learn them.

Studs Terkel In what, Preston Moore, is saying what it's all about, really. Anyway, keep it open now that all our voices are recognized, the point of it, in public school teacher tells you, you do this, and you do it. One of many "You do it" and that's it. But Preston is talking about, it's participatory.

Jenifer Schroeder I suppose the idea that a student has something to teach a teacher, or that a student has their own way of going about learning something, or their own idea of what they might want to learn at any particular time, is a subtle way, or a not so subtle way of getting across the idea that they are a person whose feelings and whose ideas are worth something and that they can have an attitude of confidence toward the world, too, and toward their selves and their fellow people.

Studs Terkel I notice some of the cour--there, there are traditional courses, too. What, for example, Preston, what, what courses have you been taking at the Arthur Morgan School that--and courses that you don't have in public school?

Preston Moore Well, when you're out, when you're outside working, that's part of the school sometimes, you work outside. You learn things about--let's see, in my public school we didn't learn anything about motors or learning to work together or anything like this. But here, you learn--well, what, how to fix a motor if it breaks down. How to jack up a car and take off its wheel. And how to do some plumbing. Things like this. 'Cause we don't have a maintenance man, but the students' maintenance the whole

Studs Terkel Oh, they do it themselves?

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel Oh, so the school, then, in a way is run by the students and the teachers together?

Preston Moore Yes. Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel So it's active, work with your hands as well as with your mind, and you say outside-- is that, that's part of it then too, isn't it?

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel This leads, of course, to the--we'll keep this open. Mrs. Schroeder, I was thinking about your grandfather, Arthur Morgan, who was in Yellow Springs, Ohio, where Antioch College is, is one of the most remarkable of Americans, Arthur Morgan, who is too little known. He was the first head of the Tennessee Valley Authority--

Jenifer Schroeder Right. Under

Studs Terkel Under Roosevelt. And he's the man who instituted the field, the field work at Antioch College.

Jenifer Schroeder Right. Yes. He was the president of Antioch College in the beginning of the 1920s, and that was the first place that he put into effect his ideas of the education of the whole person and the education for--well, I would call ethical living. His idea then was that the students should work, but they wanted to have their own industries at the school where they could employ the ethical standards that he felt that business should have, and that they could really learn by managing the whole of the business, and this worked out to a certain extent, but it became the work-study program where they went out to other places, and as far as I know this was the first time that work was conceived as part of a general education rather than a vocational type of thing. And even in the whole general education thing, Antioch was one of the few at that time, I think it was perhaps the first to--institute courses--well, general education courses, in the sense that they felt that everyone should know something about everything, that they should be prepared to cope with the whole of life on some type of basis, maybe not the most expert. But that was where he first started, but he felt even after being president of Antioch for 10 years, that it would be better for this type of education where we want to educate a person and their basic feelings toward life to catch them at a younger age. And that's one reason that my parents, when they started out, started with the junior high instead of the older.

Studs Terkel So your mother was an educator, Elizabeth

Jenifer Schroeder Right, yes, she--when she became a teacher, and she was a music teacher in the public schools, and this--she herself had not attended public school, she'd been tutored at home pretty much. And she was pretty horrified by the--straitjacket kind of thing that she experienced as a teacher in the public schools, and that was what kind of tipped the balance to do all the work. It's a tremendous amount of work to start a school. They poured their energies and money and time into this thing for, you know, night and day for year in and year out, and it's--it's not something you do if there's any easy out.

Studs Terkel It's interesting as you describe your mother's thoughts about public school, very much like the man in the story "My Little Boy". The straitjacket school.

Jenifer Schroeder Yeah, very much. I think all of us, probably, who maintain a sensitivity to the thing feel that way as we watch our kids go through it or as we go through it ourselves, that it's--something you sort of try to survive.

Studs Terkel Bob Moore, Mrs. Moore, I'm thinking about--parents, you say aside from Preston, you have another child

Robert Moore Yes, his name is Russell Moore. He's in his third year at the Arthur Morgan School. And I would like to just regress just a little in terms of make a contrast where Arthur Morgan-- he is an engineer. He's had a chance to work with the military. And Jenifer, I was wondering, could you share those thoughts, I mean, and contrast that with the present junior high school, the Arthur Morgan School?

Jenifer Schroeder Right. Actually, where a lot of his educational ideas came from was, as he observed the engineers that he worked with, and he, and had gradually developed his thinking, that right now he's especially concerned with the Army engineers, because he was intimately involved in conflicts with them throughout his engineering career where they had a certain fixed pattern of doing things, and they would do it long past any functional point. Their idea of controlling floods was dikes along rivers, for years and years, and he was the first who began to use dams and reservoirs, and the Army just pooh-poohed this whole idea for years after everyone else was paying for his services to do it. Now they finally come around to the idea of dams and reservoirs, and they can't think of anything else. It's--as he studied the way of thinking of the Army engineers, he's been drawn back into the way of thinking of the whole Army, because most of the Army Engineer Corps, or the leaders of it, come through West Point. And West Point itself had its roots in Napoleonic military schools in France and Europe. And it seems that Napoleon himself was a pretty well-apprenticed Mafia gentleman from Corsica. And that these military schools embody very much of their philosophy, which is along the lines of--what is it, "There is no substitute for victory," is one of their mottos, and another is, "Never, never, never admit a mistake." This is part of their whole approach to life. And the transplantation of this to this country, apparently even now, the Army feels a certain kinship with the Mafia in the sense that I understand when they took over Sicily from Mussolini's forces, they installed the Mafia on the island as kind of their natural co--allies in the sense in the way that they would approach running a government. So they essentially re-established their control over the island, and similarly I understand they got Lucky Luciano out of jail and he went over there to help them at the end of the war. Again, this affinity of a similar type of approach, apparently. And I guess this would be OK if it was some isolated little clique, but it's not, it happens. I mean, he has experienced, in attempting to challenge decisions of the Army engineers their fantastic power in Congress. This is just the engineers through the pork barrel that they control. Their control of flood control, of rivers, dams, high--harbors, that type of thing. They have a tremendous bread-and-butter leverage over congressmen, and of course this is nothing compared to the control that the West Point graduates in the Pentagon are able to exercise. And he feels that this whole very antidemocratic, very rigid approach to things, an approach, incidentally, which relies on there being an enemy. If there is no enemy, there is no rationale for an army, and their whole raison d'etre goes out the window. So he feels, he has come more and more, to my surprise, he never used to be much of a bug on peace issues and that type of thing, but I was surprised this year when he wrote a letter and spent a lot of time on this, because he feels that this is a major challenge to the survival of our country and of what he considers the human adventure. His, his whole life and his whole educational philosophy is dedicated to enhancing human life and to making the most out of human possibilities and trying to dry up the destructive forces in life. And he sees this as the greatest--

Studs Terkel We should point out Mrs. Schroeder is talking about her grandfather, Arthur Morgan, who at the age of 91 now, he's doing a study of the military mind, of particularly through his work as an engineer as head of the Tennessee Valley Authority. What's amazing as Mrs. Schroeder's been telling about this is, the impact on education. In other words, you see traditional educational almost military-oriented as far as approach, Preston was saying a moment ago, "The teacher says you do this in public school and you did it." Whereas at the Arthur Morgan School, it's give and take, is that it?

Preston Moore And I was going to say another thing, was that when you're at Arthur Morgan School, it's kind of--see, at the public school, you, the guy's just talking and you supposed to listen to him. But here you are kind of, like, for your hard work, you know, of trying to find out this information and learning it, you're not going to just forget about like this, you're going to keep it in your mind for a while, but you know, you just listen. You just forget like this, because you're not--didn't even--listen.

Robert Moore You're not a part of the process of learning. I mean, if someone's directing these and just lecturing continuously, and they're not sharing, but at the Arthur Morgan School, there's a, as Studs mentioned, it's a give and take, and it becomes a part. This is what education is all about. See? And we've got to do more of this. It's necessary, it's basic. If we're going to survive. We've got to have a democratic process of education.

Studs Terkel We're talking about, really, aren't we, participation, a democratic approach. And in contrast to a ritual. Mrs. Schroeder before was pointing out, the Army follows ritual. First it was the dike approach, whatever it was, and then your father came along, your grandfather, that is, he showed something, and now they've adopted his, after fighting him for so many years. But now he, he's probably knows there's another way now in addition to his way, but they'll not do that.

Jenifer Schroeder That's right. And this to me, this is the whole essence of, of the dan-- the crisis in our society, is whether we can approach problems with a flexible understanding approach, or whether we've got to look at every problem as though there must be an answer in a book. And if our teacher didn't tell us about it, we're sunk! People who have no recourse but to make snap judgments on things and dismiss them with a catchphrase or an epithet or, you know, it's a communism, it's capitalism, it's some other catchword which short-circuits the whole process of thought because they've never been taught to thought--to think.

Studs Terkel So it's a question of also--anyone, Mrs. Moore, Mr. Moore, Mrs. Schroeder, Preston Moore, a question of now the whole person and also the word responsibility to the community, this becomes, I know it's in the book, this book is called "Education for Learning to Live Together", it's about the school. And Brown the publishers, Burton Gorman wrote it. I know there's a particular sequence on concern for others is taught, life seen as a whole. This phrase here, the board of--here's an interesting Board of Trustees. We think, we think of boards of trustees of schools, here's the Board of Trustees has this credo the following: "The world's work isn't all done by bright people. It is done by responsible people, by good people, by right-thinking people, by gentle people, by conscientious people, by considerate people. Each of us is part of a great adventure, and this spirit is generated. You don't need rules. You don't need to think about discipline. Human motivation is the great essential."

Robert Moore Amazing. Again. Like a broken record. Basic.

Studs Terkel Yeah. So we come to the community. There's a place. Now the school is not, another sequence as it is not, is this an educational island? That's a big question. Some might say, "Well, the school is unique, it's true. Okay. It's for some, maybe some privileged kids, like maybe Preston Moore is privileged. He, he be--maybe he might be part of the elite, some might say." What about the general?

Robert Moore I have a feeling that what's happening at the Arthur Morgan School can also happen without any added expense to the public schools here in Chicago or in New York or any other major city, because what they're saying is, "Let's look at, let's, let's take a look at the goals of education," and they're doing this continuously. They're not only doing it in a vacuum, but they're doing it together with the students, with the community, and with the staff. And I think we should do this.

Studs Terkel Is this one of the aspects of

Jenifer Schroeder Yeah, that's, that's the basic, the basic thing. Once you approach it that way, you can begin to see, if you begin to include in your goals a certain development of the whole personality, a certain relationship to the community and to life, you can find ways, and Burton Gorman suggests a number of them, that the kids could be related to the maintenance of the schools, public schools. They could be--at ours, public school, is a sea of broken glass, and there's no reason that all these able-bodied kids can't be involved in, in creatively relating to their own school, their own physical plant, that they could reach out to community problems, that they could go and at least talk, perhaps partly as whole classes or partly just as individuals about things that were of interest to them, go out and talk to interesting people in the community. Open up some more flexibility in the ways that things are taught.

Studs Terkel This involves, then, Mrs. Moore, I was thinking, since you know, you've visited--on the point Mrs. Schroeder made and your husband made--you visited Arthur Morgan School and you knew the teachers and it was personal. Did you know the teachers at the public school? Where, where Preston went before?

Mrs. Robert Moore Oh, yes.

Jenifer Schroeder She teaches at that

Studs Terkel Oh, you teach!

Mrs. Robert Moore No--

Jenifer Schroeder You teach at a different one.

Mrs. Robert Moore Yes, I teach at a different one. I don't teach at the same school that our children attended.

Studs Terkel Well, what's the difference, though?

Mrs. Robert Moore The difference between the teachers in the public school?

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Mrs. Robert Moore Well, as I see it, the teachers themselves somehow at Arthur Morgan School have somehow freed themselves from all of the ideas that they think they--they are bound to have to follow in public schools. Rules and regulations and red tape and, and so forth. Here, it seems that this school, Arthur Morgan School, the difference is in the teachers themselves. That they're determined to do a certain thing, they know what they want to do, and it's as simple as that. You have your idea and you have the children, you have the teacher, it's the teacher and the children. And they just carry it out. And they're continuously evaluating and re-evaluating. This is the one thing that I find is quite different from public school. In public school it seems that you're, you're handed a--you know, this is your guide book here, and this is it. And if you try to make things different in public school, many times you come across so much red tape that it's almost impossible to change. I won't say it is impossible, but it's hard.

Studs Terkel Again, the military approach, isn't it, we come back to that again, don't we? The military approach or the bureaucratic approach. And so it becomes more impersonal. This word personal comes into it, doesn't it?

Robert Moore Yes, and what I like about the Arthur Morgan School is that the teachers and the other students are able to work on a problem together. See, as it was mentioned by Jenifer, the Arthur Morgan School is a boarding school where the students actually live together and, for example, this year they have 20 students. However, they have approximately about five--four or five houses, and students in groups of maybe five live together. And they, in these houses they share common problems, and they also have a community meeting, possibly once a week, and they talk about these problems. The teachers, the students, and these--they share these problems and they work out the solutions together. This is what I think we must do in our public schools in the cities if we're going to grow.

Studs Terkel I was thinking, just, my eye fell upon a sequence in this book, Burt Gorman's book about the Morgan School, "Education for the Living", "A long-haired government. We know that we pick up a newspaper and a student has been suspended from school because of his attire, because of long hair, cut--we hear, and the parents if they're strong enough for, is obstinate enough, will fight for the right of the student, and so it becomes a news story. Now here there's a sequence on this, isn't there? The school has had certain discussions about this, haven't they? About--have they? Preston, what's been the discussion about this, about student--?

Preston Moore Well, I know this year we had a community meeting and we voted on whose hair should get cut. The students and the staff.

Studs Terkel The students voted with the staff.

Preston Moore On whose hair should get cut.

Studs Terkel Well, why, well, tell me about that. What was the situation?

Preston Moore Well, it was right--well, I think we were going to go someplace. And the hair, some people's hair was, the staff thought was getting a little long. So we decided to have a vote to see whose hair should get cut. And one of the staff's hair had to get cut, too.

Studs Terkel One of the staff's

Jenifer Schroeder The basic idea being that, it's all right to wear it long at the school but when you go, when they go out, they're in a community that isn't sympathetic at all to this type of deviation. And they would rather not have everyone alienated by something like hair, which is perhaps not as critical as some of their philosophies on integration and pacifism and things like that. So they--I guess this was attempting to establish what would be a reasonable standard when they were going out into the world.

Studs Terkel So it's a question here of trying to reach out in the community, too, and weighing two points, the question of attire that is not the most important thing in the world as against other things with a community that may not understand. A question of reaching out into the community, isn't it? What's important, it seems to me is interesting about Preston's analysis, a description of the situation is that the students and the staff voted together, too. Is this often the case? I want to ask about the community in a moment, because now the school is not an island. Is this often the case about voting on things of this, is it always this way?

Preston Moore Yes, this is [unintelligible].

Studs Terkel What other issues, for instance, do you remember in your two years there? What?

Preston Moore Well, there was some destruction going around in the school. And so we was trying to figure out a way to solve it. That's one problem we worked together. And we have two students that have some other home near the school. So on Saturday and Sunday they don't come to school to--some days to do some of the chores that are there. And we had to work out that problem and get somebody else to do it. And can't think

Studs Terkel But there are chores done by the students and by the staff, as you say they all take part in maintaining this school.

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel So here's this matter again of responsibility, isn't it? Responsibility. You mentioned the community. Can we come to this? What's the relation? Where are we now? We're in North Carolina. Where?

Robert Moore The Black Hills, the Black Hills in North Carolina and the Blue Ridge Mountains. And the community, this is very unique, because the school has been able to pull or to--I'll use the word to employ or, some of the community people are part of the staff of the Arthur Morgan School. So it's a education for the people in the community. The staff members, who are part of the community--it's an education for them, also. And I think it's done very beautifully because, for example, as I recall, one of the cooks at the Arthur Morgan School lived in the community for X number of years. And, but she was a part of the community, but she also was a staff member, and she was considered a teacher in her way. She, she was a part of the staff, and therefore she was able to go back out into the community and tell the story about what the Arthur Morgan School staff was trying to do. And sometimes the relationships are not as good as we'd like, but I, I'm certain that, that there are problems but they continue to work together trying to solve those problems.

Studs Terkel Now this woman who lives in the community, she's a cook for the school, but she's also considered a faculty member.

Jenifer Schroeder Oh, yeah. Very essential. She's sort of the--a reservoir of a lot of good ideas and good judgment about the kids. She sees them in many capacities and she works with them and most of them feel very fond toward her, too. I mean, she's--you know, gives them a lot of her self and her ideas about things. I think it's kind of notable that the kids have, as far as I know, pretty much a positive attitude toward the outsiders like--although it's in the mountains, does anybody ever refer to them as hillbillies?

Preston Moore No.

Jenifer Schroeder I wouldn't think so. I don't think there's ever a feeling that somehow the kids at this school are somehow more intellectual or higher up or something than the people around there, it's

Studs Terkel So it's the opposite of elitism, really.

Jenifer Schroeder Yeah, it is. Although it is an elite school.

Studs Terkel So this woman who is the cook, we come to this now again. She takes part in the discussion, too, as well as the students.

Preston Moore Yes. We also cook with her.

Studs Terkel You cook with her?

Preston Moore Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel Here again, we come to the question of the whole, the whole person, don't we, the whole life.

Robert Moore And there's another point I'd like to mention about the rummage--they have a store where they sell rummage, and they get things from, we'll say Yellow Springs and possibly from Chicago and other places, clothes are sent down to the school and from parents. And by having this store where they sell the rummage, the local people come in and they shop around. Not only are they shopping, but they're making contact with staff members of the Arthur Morgan School, and this is another way of educating and helping the local people.

Studs Terkel Could we talk about that community now? There's also a phrase in the book, Burt Gorman's book about the Morgan School, the Celo, the intentional community. What's the

Jenifer Schroeder Right. This was the reason that my parents first went down there. They were attracted to the community before even the school idea jelled. And this was started in the late '30s by my grandfather, actually, on money provided by Henry Regnery, incidentally, his old incarnation, and the basic idea of it was an attempt to create a certain type of life together, a certain mutual responsibility and a way of living without the restrictions that normally go on religious intentional communities. It was the idea of kind of freedom and responsibility combined that people would attempt to live together and help each other in certain ways, but they would also be separate, they would have their separate philosophies or separate beliefs, their separate ways of making a living, so that it was an attempt although it's, it's had a lot of trouble because of the difficulty of making a living down there. I would say there are about 12 or 15 families, most are probably Quakers, or at least about half are Quakers, as are most of the staff of the school, Quaker either in membership or in orientation. And they tend to be of a conscientious objector or pacifist orientation.

Studs Terkel Is this a self-sustaining community?

Jenifer Schroeder Yes, the people who live there make their own livings in various ways. At different times one was a librarian for three counties, one at one time was the editor of a local paper, that was Dorothy Thomas before she died, I just mentioned to Preston. And they, some work in the industries, there's one doctor who serves some of that area and so on.

Studs Terkel Now, what's the relation of this community to the mountain people in the area?

Jenifer Schroeder Well, they mingle, but there is, it is an anomaly to the mountain people. Some of them, the more sophisticated I would say, are from--talk with the members of the community. Some of the local people are on the board of the school. The mayor of the nearest town is on the board, a local public accountant is on the board, and so on. But many of the people don't understand it. Realistically. They consider it a bunch of communists. When you get right down to it, or, and a number of the people in the community have German backgrounds. And they just regard these as a bunch of German strange people. Many of the local people. Not the ones that we actually have first-hand contact with, the ones that actually work with the school, and there is a lot of goodwill toward the school in the community and then there's a lot of ignorance about it.

Studs Terkel Do you know some of the people of the community? You have met any, Preston?

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel They know you?

Preston Moore Yes, they do.

Mrs. Robert Moore I think the school had an interesting experience. Moratorium Day, was it, Preston? You might want to tell what happened on that day.

Preston Moore Well, half--some of the students wanted to go to Washington. And some of the students wanted to go out to the community and ask--go house-to-house and ask them what they felt about Viet--the war in Vietnam. That's what we did.

Jenifer Schroeder Did you do that? Go house to house?

Preston Moore Yes.

Jenifer Schroeder What happened?

Studs Terkel Oh, you went to the homes of the people living in the mountains?

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel Were these farmers, mostly, or what are they?

Preston Moore Farm--I guess--

Jenifer Schroeder Farmers, small business, mmhmm.

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel What were their reactions? What were the reactions when you and some of your fellow students did it?

Preston Moore Most of them was nice, and I was kind of surprised, because some of them I thought might say, "Oh you're from Arthur Morgan School where that Celo community is, and just say, "Come on, get out." But, none of them did that.

Studs Terkel Did you feel something as you did that, you knocked on the door of these people, did you feel they kind of felt interested, that you thought they were important, too. Because you knocked on their door and you were asking their opinion about something. Think it may have made them feel kind of good in a way, too.

Preston Moore Maybe. Yes.

Studs Terkel Isn't this part of it, too, the fact that--

Robert Moore This is what education's all about.

Studs Terkel We're talking now about Arthur Morgan School, that has about 20 students, would you say?

Jenifer Schroeder Mmhmm. Varies, 20 to 25.

Studs Terkel It's about eight years old, that has participation in decisions by the faculty, by the teachers of the traditional courses as well as the teacher who happens to be a very good cook. And the students take part in all this work. And we're talking, really, about something that has the impulse of which can spread much further than the, this little place. Isn't that, isn't that what your grandfather's approach was all about?

Jenifer Schroeder Right. Yeah. It's an approach that can spread. I was wondering if we should mention specifically about the courses, too, because some

Robert Moore Yes, I think very

Jenifer Schroeder Feel that, along A.S. Neill Summerhill lines, that the academics are strictly optional and, in fact, although Preston tells me that there are from time to time, there are kids who don't go to courses. Last year I guess there was one boy who didn't go to any classes, but actually they have a schedule of classes, and they have subjects that are covered. And yet, I guess math is covered by everyone and French is just those who want it?

Preston Moore Yes.

Jenifer Schroeder Offered on two or three different levels, and then they have what you call a core course?

Preston Moore Mmhmm.

Jenifer Schroeder That apparently includes social studies and history and science and those things.

Preston Moore And reading.

Jenifer Schroeder Reading.

Preston Moore English.

Robert Moore Oh, reading, that--that's very interesting. Preston, could you tell us about this daily--now, this is approach to reading. It's not only just reading a book, but we're talking about English: writing, conversation, speaking, and they have a daily calendar. Could you tell us about how that's done?

Preston Moore Well--

Robert Moore Yes.

Preston Moore Each day we're--somebody's assigned to write about that day and what happened. He can write anything he wants for the day. He can just spend the whole paper on writing about how good the lunch was, and then each day at lunch, the next day we read it. And we put it in this little book form.

Studs Terkel So that he can--that in writing, that which interests him that day, he can spend as much time on that as he can. So, you've had some pretty good pieces of writing? That you come across?

Robert Moore He made the newspaper, by the way. I just thought they do have--what's the name of the newspaper?

Jenifer Schroeder Right, I [leapt?] in there. "Celo Education Notes". Yeah, they print some of the writings of the students and send them out to all the parents and [unintelligible].

Studs Terkel By the way, the students have their own print press, too?

Jenifer Schroeder Yes, they have several printing presses, I guess, don't they? Or do they--

Preston Moore Yes.

Robert Moore And the offset?

Jenifer Schroeder Right. Yeah.

Studs Terkel So it's doing the whole job.

Jenifer Schroeder Right. And also I should mention that some--that the printing presses and the rummage and so on, these little projects of the school are partly to help support the school from a financial point of view, it's the idea of doing real work for a real function, which is to get bread for the school. May--

Preston Moore And I was going to mention that we do work in the press, and we also work in the office sometimes, and we also work in, we have another small business. I'm not sure it's Celo pre--notes, that's what it's called.

Jenifer Schroeder Yeah.

Preston Moore And we put those together, too.

Jenifer Schroeder And how about the bees? That could almost be considered a business.

Preston Moore We have some beehives and we extracted honey and jar it, and then sell it, too. To people.

Studs Terkel So then, it's the school then, is really living, is what we're talking about, isn't it? A school for living, it's what--living and everything, so it--you're involved with bees. Printing the paper, writing, the regular courses, helping to cook. I know [it's heard?] little problems come up, and how you solve them. This is revolt in the dining room, the peanut butter curriculum. I notice the food storage room of the school has never been locked.

Jenifer Schroeder Up until now.

Preston Moore Up until now.

Studs Terkel Well, what happened?

Preston Moore Well, I don't--see, some fruit was, been taken from the refrigerator. And then the cook didn't have anything, you know, she was planning for that stuff, food to be used. So, but the staff didn't discuss this yet. They just put a lock there and they didn't even talk to us about this. And so I think I'm going to bring it up when I come back, go back.

Studs Terkel So you're going to bring up the question of the lock on the door.

Preston Moore Mmhmm.

Jenifer Schroeder And who decides.

Studs Terkel Hmm?

Jenifer Schroeder And who decides whether the

Studs Terkel Well, come back to decision again, don't we? You say that the staff in this case in a certain emotional moment, no doubt, left by the lady who was the cook decided to put the lock on, but the students weren't consulted.

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel So you're going to introduce the subject.

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel When you return. So that should be a very interesting discussion that's going to follow.

Preston Moore Yes.

Studs Terkel So this is so, life is here with its problems, too. I mean, this is also part of it, too.

Robert Moore Definitely. At the Arthur Morgan School, there are many problems, and there are many problems that there are no solutions. But this is education again: a continuous asking, "How can we best solve the problem today?" A continuous yearning trying. No one has the final solution. And I think the educators at Arthur Morgan realize this. But the beautiful thing about it, the students, the staff, the community are doing it together.

Studs Terkel You know, what's quite moving about this, and just the last point brought up by Preston Moore, too, is the fact there are humans involved here, that they--it's not--these are not saints at work, and that there are problems. And the question is, how are these problems to be met, the challenges and the nature of participation and decisions? You really, this is almost a metaphor for the whole world today, in a way, too, isn't it? As your grandfather thought, too, I imagine, Mrs. Schroeder.

Jenifer Schroeder Yeah, a microcosm. Yeah, it is. I wanted to mention something, too, that Bob--you were talking about what, where the students go on after they finish with this. Does it unfit them for a regular life, or do they come out here unable to open a book to the right section? You had something about that.