Alger Hiss talks with Studs Terkel

Studs Terkel I say to you the name Alger Hiss, what's that mean?

Unidentified Female 1 Nothing.

Studs Terkel Nothing.

Unidentified Female 1 Doesn't ring a bell.

Studs Terkel Doesn't ring any

Unidentified Female 1 Nothing.

Studs Terkel Alger Hiss. It doesn't

Unidentified Female 1 No, I'm not familiar with that name at all.

Studs Terkel How old would you be, by the way?

Unidentified Female 1 25.

Studs Terkel 25. The name Alger Hiss.

Unidentified Female 2 I don't know, it it vaguely means something political to me.

Studs Terkel And that's all?

Unidentified Female 2 Yes.

Studs Terkel [unintelligible]

Unidentified Female 3 She's some relation to Horatio Alger.

Studs Terkel If I say to you- Horatio

Unidentified Female 3 [Laughter] She's some relation to Horatio Alger-

Studs Terkel Oh, no.

Unidentified Male 1 No, what I was gonna say is I think I've read the person's name in the news lately, but I- I can't- I can't-

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Male 1 remember exactly.

Studs Terkel You don't recall. How old are you?

Unidentified Male 1 26.

Studs Terkel Alger Hiss, what's that name mean to you?

Unidentified Female 4 Dirty commie spy. That's what I've always thought about him.

Studs Terkel When did you- how did you know? How did

Unidentified Female 4 As a kid, he was the prototype of of this sort of undercover, sneaky person. You know. You gotta to be careful not to trust anybody who they're like him. People who look like

Studs Terkel Yeah. Do you know what he looks like?

Unidentified Female 4 He was kind of nice looking as I recall. Didn't he have a mustache?

Studs Terkel No-

Unidentified Female 4 I don't know if he did or not.

Studs Terkel But vaguely, what do you think he looked like if you remember?

Unidentified Female 4 He was medium height, maybe 5' 10". I thought he had kind of graying hair as I recall. Maybe it's just from seeing his pictures in the newspaper that he looked like that. But I was very young at the time-

Studs Terkel Yeah. Well [when I say the name?] Alger Hiss now, what does it mean to you?

Unidentified Female 4 The same thing.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Female 4 Actually-

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Female 4 I al- I sort of get him mixed up with that woman- what was her name? Rosenberg? They were all sort of around the same time it seemed to me-

Studs Terkel The

Unidentified Female 4 In my mind, yeah.

Studs Terkel Who- what happened to them? Do you know?

Unidentified Female 4 I don't know.

Studs Terkel What happened to the

Unidentified Female I just remember they had a trial and it was a big thing in the newspapers.

Studs Terkel You know what happened to them?

Unidentified Female 4 No. Do they get killed? [laughter] I can't remember. I was just, you know, in grammar school.

Studs Terkel But as the names come up today, you associate the two-

Unidentified Female 4 These are just real evil people that were exposed.

Studs Terkel That's where it is today. You read nothing further about them?

Unidentified Female No. No.

Unidentified Male 2 To me, it j- it brings up the witch-hunting of the '50s. I think he was a he was a lower echelon, maybe not a clerk, but someone in the State Department, who I have a feeling was- was framed largely because he was Black and liberal-

Studs Terkel Because he was Black and liberal-

Unidentified Male 2 Yeah. And I know that Nixon was involved in it and came off with a dirty face, and I don't remember too much- I don't know too much else about it. Except that his name was linked with McCarthyism.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Male 2 And generally that he was a scapegoat.

Studs Terkel What does he look like? Do you remember?

Unidentified Male 2 I remember he was very light. I didn't know he was Black until I read it. That's all.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Male 2 That's about it.

Studs Terkel Where did you read the news that he was Black?

Unidentified Male I don't know. Life magazine, maybe? But that's about it. I remember there's a typewriter that was used to incriminate him, and it wasn't- it was perhaps circumstantial evidence, but that's about all I know.

Studs Terkel Any other-

Unidentified Male 2 He was with the Red Scare, and that's about it.

Studs Terkel You recall any other name connected with Hiss?

Unidentified Male 2 Nixon. McCarthy.

Studs Terkel Yeah. Does the name Whittaker Chambers mean

Unidentified Male 2 Yeah.

Studs Terkel What's

Unidentified Male 2 Yeah sure. Was he a journalist who was red-baiting at the time?

Studs Terkel Remember the nature of his- the circumstances?

Unidentified Male 2 No.

Studs Terkel Involving Whittaker Chambers?

Unidentified Male 2 No. I just remember that the whole thing was kind of a specious argument. But that-that's that.

Studs Terkel So when you hear the name Alger Hiss today, what is the first reaction?

Unidentified Male 2 I think of it as being sort of a government frameup trying to find a scapegoat.

Unidentified Male 3 Well, at first it it took me a minute, and this is the truth. I I I thought, the other name's familiar, and then I I think he he was arrested as a spy- I think in New York, a big ringleader or something supposedly. Because I remember he looked like anybody else. Very average.

Studs Terkel Name Hiss today would evoke what?

Unidentified Male 3 I don't know. He was a little, you know- I don't remem- what- my memories of him come from a few months ago, they had on TV the- the movie "The FBI Story."

Studs Terkel Ah ha.

Unidentified Male 3 And he was mentioned in

Studs Terkel He was mentioned in there. So that's it. So when you hear the name today what do you think of? Think, yeah.

Unidentified Male 3 Nothing in particular.

Studs Terkel I'm gonna try someone from another generation.

Unidentified Female 5 Yeah. It is- me- it's an unpleasant memory, and it has to do with the McCarthy period. And he was suspected, I think, of being a spy. And it it really is an unpleasant memory. You

Studs Terkel You don't remember the case? Was it- was there a case involving him, do you recall?

Unidentified Female 5 Yeah, well there was a lot of big to-do. Do

Studs Terkel Do you recall-

Unidentified Female 5 That's about all I can

Studs Terkel Yeah. When you hear the name today, what is the emotion evoked?

Unidentified Female 5 Suspicion.

Unidentified Female 6 The name sounds familiar but I don't remember what he did. I mean I've heard about him.

Studs Terkel Yeah, well is there any particular feeling when you hear the name?

Unidentified Female 6 Let's see what c- I know it's not a good name. I mean, it isn't. But from the '50s, that's about all I remember.

Unidentified Male 4 I was just thinking was he one of- one- was he one of the prisoners that was released possibly.

Studs Terkel No.

Unidentified Male 4 I'm wrong. All right.

Studs Terkel You mean- you think he might have one of the P.O.W.'s-

Unidentified Male 4 Yeah.

Studs Terkel Is that what you mean?

Unidentified Male 4 Yeah.

Studs Terkel No.

Unidentified Male 5 Well I remember the name. Something back in the '50s or so. Something about being convicted as a spy for giving, I think it was atomic secrets to Russia, or something like that. But I don't remember much about it because I was in a small town. We just took it for granted, that was it. And we didn't think anymore of it. I mean the guy's a commie or something, and that was it. S'all I remember. And I remember McCarthy was something to do with it or in that era, anyway. And then he went into some kind of communist hunting- hunting you know for everybody who was slight in association or something. And I was very agreeable at the time. I came from a small town- a very, very conservative. Boy, go get 'em, you know. And I remember very little, I mean, the reason I, don't remember very much, we just took it for granted anything they did was, you know- they found a communist, or giving a spy- give 'em the business, that's it. And I agree with the a lot of things, until I found out a little bit about life. When McCarthur was kicked out of Korea, you know, I agreed with MacArthur, you know. Cause I found out a little bit more about what is [and 'nt?]. We were just not fed anything but what they wanted us to.

Studs Terkel So if I say the name Alger Hiss to you now, what would it mean emotionally?

Unidentified Male 5 Well I have to think now, it's ma- might be substantially different because I see things happening today where if you don't agree with somebody, you can be either somebody tries to discredit you or you don't get anywhere. You're beating your head against a wall. You don't get any- you don't know why. And if you don't agree with the system, you just don't get anywhere. I've learned a lot about life since those days in that little town.

Unidentified Male 6 Well he's very fam- I mean, it's very famous.

Studs Terkel Well, in what way?

Unidentified Male 6 Well he was convicted of perjury in- in connection with with Whittaker Chambers, or on the witness of Whittaker Chambers. In, God, I don't know, '50? '51? Something like that? And and, well, and, you know, has proclaimed his innocence ever since. That's all, you know. I--

Studs Terkel Remember how it began or the basis of it?

Unidentified Male 6 Well, you mean the Pumpkin Papers and things like that?

Studs Terkel Oh, you [unintelligible].

Unidentified Female 7 I'm

Studs Terkel 26. If I say to you the name Alger Hiss, What does that mean?

Unidentified Female 7 He was a communist something. That's about it. I know he was like the communist spy or something but I have- I don't recall much about him or what time,

Studs Terkel You don't know when or?

Unidentified Female 7 Probably go back to the '50s, because I don't really remember much about

Studs Terkel Yeah. Well, how did you get the idea that he was that?

Unidentified Female 7 I've heard- oh, 'cause I've heard their name many times. I guess it's through school or something like

Studs Terkel You remember where you heard the name or no?

Unidentified Female 7 Well, obviously in school.

Studs Terkel I say the name Alger Hiss to you. What does that mean?

Unidentified Female 8 I think first of the then Senator Nixon who, in my impression, largely made his career yelling about Alger Hiss being a communist. Hiss, I believe, worked in the State Department and this would have been about 1948- close as I can get

Studs Terkel Now you're, I would guess, late 40s. Something like that. Mid-40s.

Unidentified Male 7 Or early 50s. I remember the name very much. Time of the Julius Rosenberg trial, I believe. He was involved- whether he was involved or not, I really don't- don't remember that much about it, but I think he got a ba- a lot of bad publicity at the time. And I think McCarthyism was involved at that time, and I think that was part of the reason the man got the publicity he got, am I right? Or do I recall well enough

Studs Terkel I'd say, good enough. Yeah. Do you- so what's your emotion? What is your feeling now when you hear the name?

Unidentified Male 7 Nothing bad at all really. At the time, I think, at the time I may have, but I don't think I do today.

Studs Terkel So you mentioned McCarthyism, that's interesting, yeah.

Unidentified Male 7 I think that was at the time when lots of people got some bad publicity whether they were necessarily bad or not, I don't know.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Studs Terkel Now if I say a name to you, your first reaction? Alger Hiss.

Unidentified Female 9 Richard Nixon.

Studs Terkel Okay, why why do you say that?

Unidentified Female It, to me, is back in the McCarthy era.

Studs Terkel Do you recall anything about-

Unidentified Female 9 Very little. Very little.

Studs Terkel Was there-

Unidentified Female 9 I just went to see "The Case of Oppenheimer" at the Goodman which filled in that- I didn't know about that. So-

Studs Terkel Was there a case involving Alger Hiss?

Unidentified Female 9 There was, but I can't tell you much about

Studs Terkel it. You don't recall what it was.

Unidentified Female 9 No. It's very-

Studs Terkel Any- why do you associate Nixon with it? Why, what's Nixon?

Unidentified Female 9 That was- that whole era. Why I did, I don't know. I think its my reaction after seeing the Oppenheimer thing was that- the thing is, the whole attitude is still prevalent.

Studs Terkel At the

Unidentified Female 9 time- The suspicion, and the the accusing, and the- and it was what?

Studs Terkel You're pretty

Unidentified Female 9 Around the time of McCarthy and-

Studs Terkel You're pretty good.

Unidentified Female 9 He was- he wasn't with Anna Rosenberg, was he? That's a different thing.

Studs Terkel With who?

Unidentified Female The Rosenbergs.

Studs Terkel And what's the first name you mentioned?

Unidentified Female 9 Anna.

Studs Terkel Who was Anna Rosenberg?

Unidentified Female 9 She was tried as giving away secrets to the Russians, as I remember. I'm not positive.

Studs Terkel Anna Ro- you said Anna.

Unidentified Female 9 Wasn't it?

Studs Terkel That's interesting. It was Ethel, but that's alright.

Unidentified Female 9 Ethel, OK.

Studs Terkel That's OK. Anna was a member of Roosevelt's New Deal

Unidentified Female 9 Administration. Oh.

Studs Terkel You weren't- that's intersting. Do you know what happened to her?

Unidentified Female 9 No.

Studs Terkel Ethel Rosenberg.

Unidentified Female 9 Uh-uh.

Studs Terkel You don't recall?

Unidentified Female 9 I really

Studs Terkel There was a case involving Rosenberg, is that right?

Unidentified Female 9 As far- well- what these things were, when I- I grew up in a- I grew up very sheltered and very much in a conservative, medium-sized town in the Midwest. And these people did not seem real at all.

Studs Terkel These people- [would

Unidentified Female 9 Meaning Alger Hiss or Ethel Rosenberg-

Studs Terkel Wait just a second this is- Alright, or-

Unidentified Female 9 Or J. Robert Oppenheimer.

Studs Terkel Didn't seem real.

Unidentified Female 9 They did not seem real at all. And I went to a private college that was very conservative, and I started to learn about the world and what had happened when I started to work for a newspaper. So- I mean I'm embarrassed as hell about

Studs Terkel No. No. No.

Unidentified Female 9 Cause that's really a void in my knowledge.

Studs Terkel It's not you who should be embarrassed, but rather- this is my editorial now after having many voices- the nature of the media and what they've done to us.

Unidentified Female 10 Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author?

Studs Terkel "Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author?" Voices you've been hearing, and I'm sitting opposite the hero, the villain, of these voices Alger Hiss is seated here. He is just- a book has been republished, book he writ several years ago- his reflections concerning his case, his conviction. "In the Court of Public Opinion," Harper Colophon Books. Alger Hiss, you're seated here right now, and you're smiling, and maybe you're sad or happy in hearing these thoughts. Your reflections.

Alger Hiss When you just said that you thought the media were largely responsible. I noticed several of the people who spoke, spoke of their schooling as responsible. Maybe it's not easy to separate the media from the schools, but I think our schooling, for many, many years, on all important issuses- I'm not referring to myself as important, but on the Cold War, on the origins of what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex and what it stood for. I think our schooling was very deficient. And then a big change in the young people today, who are in college or who've recently been to college, all over the country, small colleges as well as big colleges have a very different, more involved, and more, I think, accurate sense of what's going on.

Studs Terkel I was thinking as you talked, you heard a variety of voices, there was some humorous one- I'm thinking also about what history and memory does and the distortion of history and sensationalism. Like, one thought you were Black.

Alger Hiss I thought that was an honor. During the New Deal, people thought I was Jewish, and I was pleased to have that

Studs Terkel I take it, you are, if I may just say so- Alger Hiss is of an old, old WASP family-

Alger Hiss I'm a WASP.

Studs Terkel But it's interesting-

Alger Hiss But all Southerners probably have some Negro blood so- I hope that maybe some of that-

Studs Terkel Are you Southern originally?

Alger Hiss Yes, Maryland.

Studs Terkel Maryland. Border state. And someone- I'm thinking of other thoughts. One kid thought, "what's it he, is he one of the P.O.W's?" Raises-.

Alger Hiss That was an interesting- that was an interesting-

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Alger Hiss Time switch, wasn't it? I suppose what that indicates is that, any name that is read about- one of 'em said all the people- they mentioned Oppenheimer, mentioned me, were unreal- mentioned the Rosenbergs. And I suppose that a name which is in the press, or on the radio, on television, must cause great confusion. Anna Rosenberg got mixed with Ethel Rosenberg-

Studs Terkel And Anna Rosenberg was a member of Roosevelt's-

Alger Hiss She definitely was part of Roosevelt's subcabinet, very important [in dealing?], and still a very vigorous lady. She's now married to Paul Hoffman, the man who started the whole U.N. program for underdeveloped countries.

Studs Terkel Paul Hoffman the industrialist-

Alger Hiss Used to be with his Studebaker

Studs Terkel Studebaker. That's interest- but, you're saying something now, perhaps may be the key. We'll come to you now on the case and to the name of Nixon, come up- we'll come to that in a moment. But, it's interesting is, you spoke of names in the news. The fact is you were, for better or for worse, a celebrity. This is the point, you see. This is what we're talking about, aren't we? Names, the admixture, everything better or worse- the media did something. We'll come in a moment to the morality or amorality of it, you know.

Alger Hiss Yes I think that's very true. I think the media feeds on sensation, and it feeds on names that can be ballyhooed, whether they are acting- just think of the names that these young people would have known from having gone to motion pictures. If you'd them some motion picture names they have known

Studs Terkel Incidentally, one said he remembered

Alger Hiss you, [Coughing]

Studs Terkel But he saw you on, obviously the Efrem Zimbalist F.B.I. show, see. There, too, the media. There

Alger Hiss That's quite true. When I was in jail, "The F.B.I. Story" was one of the radio programs that was permitted to come in. We had I think two- two channels, one had things like the "F.B.I. Story," and the other had hillbilly music. But, yes, the FBI was a big media merchant-

Studs Terkel You know what we have to do now, Mr. Hiss? Alger Hiss, we have to go back now to beginnings, and it's your book. This is sort of a preface. I call it a sad, funny, seriocomic, tragic- one girl didn't know what happened to the Rosenbergs, where they killed? Were they not? Does it matter? We come now to the break in continuity, what's happened to young people, old people fears- one of the older persons said, "am I right? Am I right?" He wanted approval, too, you see? So now we come to you Alger Hiss, you said jail, we have to come back to beginnings. The book- may I just suggest- Harper Colophon, they republished this book. It came out, first came out- your thoughts about it. There were many books: one by Alistair Cooke, one, a wholly different one, by investigative reporter Fred Cook.

Alger Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel And a wide variety of 'em. This is Alger Hiss' own thoughts, transcripts, memories, feelings about the trial. And it's called "In the Court of Public Opinion" and it's available now. We start with you, how it began, yourself. Who are you? First of all, the job you had and what you did, you- you once a secretary for Mr. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Alger Hiss Right. First-year out of law school I served

Studs Terkel This Harvard?

Alger Hiss Yes. I went to Harvard Law School.

Studs Terkel I'm thinking now, in view what we just heard, many listeners may, too, have big gaps and voids, through no fault of their own. Suppose we start at the beginning and

Alger Hiss I must say, I've recently been shocked that people didn't know the name Oliver Wendell Holmes. People didn't even recognize his photograph, which was a shock to me. He was a very handsome man all his life. One of the astonishing things about him was that in his lifetime, and that of his immediate forebears, he spanned the history of our country. He told me of hearing, at his grandmother's knee, of her watching the British enter Boston, and his house on Beacon Hill, his family house, was used by Lord Howe as the British headquarters. Justice Holmes was wounded three times in the Civil War, seriously. Once left for dead. Became a professor at the Harvard Law School. A great writer on the law before that. And he wrote a seminal book called, "The Common Law." Then he became a judge in the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, and Chief Justice. And then he went to Washington. Was appointed by Theodore Roosevelt as a Justice of the Supreme Court, and was there until the '30s when he retired.

Studs Terkel Astonishing. So you were secretary for Oliver Wendell Holmes, who spanned the history of our country. It was once said of an editor, Malcolm Barnes, who edited for Allen Unwin, spoke of Bertrand Russell, as having a span, his life and that of his grandfather, we knew. From Napoleon to leading the young people in the Aldermaston anti-bomb march. Isn't that amazing?

Alger Hiss Yes.

Studs Terkel I thought of Bertrand Russell and of Oliver Wendell Holmes that span-

Alger Hiss They both lived to be very old men. Holmes was just short of 95.

Studs Terkel So, you obviously had very auspicious beginnings. You were secretary of Oliver Wendell Holmes, and then you were member of Roosevelt's-

Alger Hiss I was one of the young New Dealers that went down. First I practiced law for a while in Boston and then in New York. And then, when the New Deal started, I came down very early, as many other young people.

Studs Terkel And you were there in Yalta. We'll come to that in a moment-

Alger Hiss Later. Later. Yes.

Studs Terkel And Dumbarton Oaks, too?

Alger Hiss Yes.

Studs Terkel Do you think Dumbarton Oaks [through the?] monetary matters?

Alger Hiss Dumbarton and- no, no. You may be mixing it with Bretton

Studs Terkel Bretton Woods, I am. here am I-

Alger Hiss [unintelligible]

Studs Terkel in my memory. So there its go, so why-

Alger Hiss Dumbarton Oaks was the preliminary to the San Francisco conference where the United Nations Charter was adopted. At Dumbarton Oaks, the charter was roughed out, was drafted. They were called conversations, not a real conference. The British, the Russians, and the Americans met, and then later the Chinese, and the Americans, and the British.

Studs Terkel So you had something to do then with helping in the charter of the United Nations?

Alger Hiss Yes, in a minor way, modestly.

Studs Terkel And then, this is Alger Hiss who spent time in jail. So now we come to- Roosevelt died, and something known as the Cold War began.

Alger Hiss Quite right. Almost immediately-

Studs Terkel Now. In the meantime you honored- became head of the Carnegie-

Alger Hiss Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Studs Terkel What was the nature of that job?

Alger Hiss Well I was the third president of an institution that Mr. Carnegie had set up to further the cause of peace. He'd always been interested in peace. He gave funds for the Hague Palace for the Court of International Justice, the one that was known as the Hague Court of International Arbitration. And he gave a substantial sum of money in those days, about ten million dollars, for a foundation, the Carnegie Endowment, who main purpose was to be the exploration of avenues of peace. When I was asked by John Foster Dulles if I would like

Studs Terkel John Foster Dulles-

Alger Hiss Yes.

Studs Terkel Who asked

Alger Hiss He was the chairman of the board, and he asked me if I would consider being president. I was about to leave the State Department at that time anyway. And I said on condition that their new emphasis would be on the United Nations because of my interest in it. And he and the board, particularly a committee that interrogated me, Mr. John W. Davis and Mr. Wadsworth, I believe-

Studs Terkel This should be John W. Davis who was the presidential candidate-

Alger Hiss That's

Studs Terkel Of the Democrats in 1924 against-

Alger Hiss Wonderful

Studs Terkel Calvin Coolidge.

Alger Hiss Great man. And they agreed that that was an important continuation of Mr. Carnegie's purposes. And so when I moved in as president, this became our main activity and, to a large extent, they have continued it ever since.

Studs Terkel Well, this is your life thus far. Then your book begins. This book that I hold in my hand, if I may paraphrase, or quote, the late senator from Appleton, Wisconsin. I hold in my hands, Alger Hiss' book, "In The Court of Public Opinion", and it begins on a certain day that altered your life. I suspect the lives of millions of us, and I suspect, particularly, the life of Richard Nixon, too. August 1948-

Alger Hiss August 3rd, I think, wasn't

Studs Terkel Is it? it begins living in New York City. Well why don't you sort of recount in your way as were seated here right now.

Alger Hiss There had been some sensational hearings before the House Unamerican Activities Committee, as it was then called- I think it's called the House Internal Security Committee now- by a woman named Bentley and she attacked various government officials. Said they had been communist. Then a man named Whittaker Chambers appeared- and I think he appeared on August 3rd, 1948, at the height of Mr. Truman's campaign for re-election. Obviously the hearings had a great deal to do with politics. At the time, I didn't think of that. I merely learned from newspapermen calling me at my office that Whittaker Chambers had said that I was a communist, that he had been, and that he'd known me as a communist. I denied it and then immediately asked the committee if I could appear before them in order to deny it officially and under oath. And that was the beginning.

Studs Terkel Now the question is Whittaker Chambers. Now we come to one of the- in a perverse sort of way a fascinating- if one is reading [craft evening?] or whatever and just coming to- we come to, who is Whittaker Chambers.

Alger Hiss I'm afraid I don't know enough about him to answer that authoritatively. Though I think another book is coming out very shortly by somebody who's done a great deal of research on his life. I now know that he was born, I think, in Philadelphia. He's a man few years older than I. He went to Columbia. Before that he went briefly to Williams and had some kind of a religious, I would suspect, pose- anyway, a religious disinclination to stay at Williams. Went to Columbia, where he knew a great many people who later became quite well known. Was a student, among others, of Mark Van Doren. And, after disappearing from the public scene, got a job with Time magazine, when Harry Luce was the head of Time.

Studs Terkel You call him Harry Luce. That's interesting. Well

Alger Hiss Well my wife had worked for Time magazine and she knew him quite well, and so I phrased it- I didn't know him myself well enough to call him that, but he was-- he was known as Harry Luce by a great many people. And then, Chambers who, again, I learned later, had been famous around Time magazine for being the expert on communism, on Russia, on foreign affairs, and I should put expert in commas if I were writing it because, most knowledgeable people thought that his accounts were not only tendentious, but sensational and imaginative. Anyway, they pleased Mr. Luce, and then he appeared as a witness before the House committee.

Studs Terkel Why- and this is one of the mysteries, isn't it - why he picked on you?

Alger Hiss Well I wasn't the first. He, some years before, talking to Malcolm Cowley, an author and a writer--

Studs Terkel Very excellent literary critic-

Alger Hiss Had told Cowley while they were lunching together that he, Chambers, knew all about communism and that Francis B. Sayre, who, incidentally, had been my chief.

Studs Terkel In the State Department?

Alger Hiss The State Department when I first went in and, during the days of Chambers was talking about, was the head of a Communist cell in the State Department. Malcolm Cowley, incredulous, said, "You don't mean Francis Sayre, President Wilson's son-in-law?" And Chambers said, Oh yes, he did. Now, whether Chambers then backed off after having tried that out, but, all the papers that Chambers introduced in making charges against me could, if he'd been brash enough to make such a charge, have been used to try to incriminate Mr. Sayre because they came to Mr. Sayre's office. They didn't come to me personally, they came to Mr. Sayre, where I was working.

Studs Terkel Talking to Alger Hiss right now, and the book is "In the Court of Public Opinion", his book, and he has not yet- you had not- do you know who Whittaker Chambers, was? You haven't been confronted with him yet. But in the meantime, [before you didn't?] faced you asked to see Whittaker Chambers.

Alger Hiss Yes. I asked if he were present.

Studs Terkel But, in the meantime, the headlines were immediately there. The- it was Mundt for one, and John Rankin-

Alger Hiss Yes.

Studs Terkel Of the Mississippi, who were headlining the dangers of Alger Hiss

Alger Hiss Mister Abert, who is now chairman of the House Military Affairs

Studs Terkel Meantime the papers have now all picked it up and, the headlines were that you were pretty much a dang- they were- they were being quoted, as you being a very dangerous man. And you had not yet met-

Alger Hiss That's quite

Studs Terkel The man who accused.

Alger Hiss The name meant nothing to me. I had never heard of Whittaker Chambers. Now I asked if he were there, and was told, "no, but it'll be arranged. You'll have a chance to meet him"

Studs Terkel You ask the House Unamerican Activities Committee.

Alger Hiss Yes.

Studs Terkel Of which a young member was Richard Nixon.

Alger Hiss Nixon was on the

Studs Terkel We'll pause just for a moment and we'll return to Alger Hiss and his reflections. [pause in recording] Resuming the conversation with Alger Hiss, a name that is very familiar to many but, strangely enough, unfamiliar to many. The nature of history, continuity, the world, and he's visiting at the moment because of the republication- it's in paperback of this book that, it seems to me, if we are to maintain our sanity or regain our sanity, you know, little about history and deceit, dissemblance, and hysteria. His book "In the Court of Public Opinion" might be worth read- the word, public opinion, by the way is the title, "In the Court of Public Opinion." That's a significant title.

Alger Hiss You wanna know how I chose it?

Studs Terkel Why?

Alger Hiss It was partly ironical. The House Committee, which was anything but a real court, used to boast that their unfair proceedings were a kind of court, because they relied on publicity and public notoriety. And so they referred to the fact that they considered themselves a court of public opinion. Since I believe, I thought, more strongly in the wisdom of the public than they did, really. I felt that, when I got out of jail and wanted to write about my case, the proper forum was a real court of public opinion, namely, the public, to whom one could write a book without the publicity aides that the committee had, but just writing the story of what the evidence was, what the facts were, how it happened.

Studs Terkel So we return now to this, what seemed to have been a private matter that is they were- that you were public, headlines about you. You had denied the accusation of Whittaker Chambers, the man whom you did not recognize or know. You asked to see him and meet him.

Alger Hiss Yes.

Studs Terkel And now we come to a name, George Crossley. And we go back years now, don't we, to the Nye Committee, suppose you recount that Mister Hiss?

Alger Hiss The Nye Committee, which I'm afraid many of the young people you spoke to, spoke about, spoke with, also wouldn't know. During the early days of the New Deal, Senator Nye of North Dakota formed a congressional committee to investigate the munitions industry. He had quite a distinguished committee. Senator Vandenberg was on it. Senator Pope who later became one of the officials, one of the directors of TVA. Senator Bone. Homer Bone, who became a federal judge, still is, in the West Coast. And their task was to investigate the relationship between big munitions committees and, to use a phrase that one of them actually used in a letter, whether they fomented wars. One of the letters that was produced was of a man who accused other people of fomenting peace. Also, we went into the issue of whether the big munitions companies got extortionate profits from the government, particularly in time of war. So we went

Studs Terkel We're talking now about '34. '35. Around there.

Alger Hiss Yes. But we also went back into the history of World War One to see what Dupont and some of the other big companies had done then. We both examined what the munitions companies had done in time of war and what they were doing in time of peace in the '30s. Some of the airplane companies, some of the companies that made guns, ammunition, and so on, and we found that there were close connections with the big, similar institutions abroad like Bofor's in Sweden, Schneider-Creusot in France, comparable companies in Czechoslovakia, and really all over the world. They had sort of a cartel. Anyway, that was a rather famous series of hearings. And I was lent by my department, then the Department of Agriculture, where I first joined the New Deal, as counsel, because I had been trained as a lawyer. The committee had very, very few people on the staff and not much in the way of funds. But, they did borrow officials from the government and since, on the committee were several members of the Agricultural Committee of the Senate, Secretary Wallace, when they asked for my services lent me to them, and I tried to do two jobs at once, as their counsel

Studs Terkel It was during that time you were living in Washington, and there you ran into someone, now you're- now, you're trying to figure out who this guy who accused

Alger Hiss This is how I first met a man named Crossley. I met many, many people. It was my duty to talk to those who were writing books, lectures, newspaper men, because the committee wanted publicity about its efforts. And one of the people who called on me was a man who gave the name of George Crossley. Said he was writing an article, I understood, for the American Magazine about the committee, and so I saw him, oh, a number of times. We had lunch together, I went over some of the transcript with him, some of the exhibits that we'd put in the record. And at one period when he said he wanted to come down to Washington to work more full time- he said he lived in New York, and that he wanted to bring his wife and small child to Washington. I said that I had an apartment that I just moved out of, I was about to move out of, I'd be glad to let him use it. I thought this was good public relations for the committee. Here was a man who was writing seriously, I believed, about the committee. At that time, I had no prospect of of finding a tenant for an apartment that only had a few more months to go, so I said if he would pay me my rental costs, he and his wife and child could live in the apartment, and I left enough furniture so that they had it as a furnished apartment.

Studs Terkel You let him use an old car of yours,

Alger Hiss I also lent him an old Ford car I had because, about that time, I was acquiring another car. And it was a car that I had been offered 25 dollars for on the trade in. It was a car that I had got when it was new, just at the time I'd got married in '29, I was sentimentally attached to it, and I didn't want to have it go to a stranger for only 25 dollars, and so I gave it to Mr. Chambers eventually.

Studs Terkel Now you said Mr. Chambers just now-

Alger Hiss This is what his real name was-

Studs Terkel So George Crossley-

Alger Hiss The same fellow Crossley [unintelligible] Chambers-

Studs Terkel Was Whittaker Chambers. This is after you finally were allowed to confront him. You had ask for some time.

Alger Hiss Allowed is an interesting word, because it had been announced that there would be a confrontation, public confrontation, on the 25th of August. It didn't occur that way. I got a call from Mr. McDowell of the committee, whom I had known when I appeared as a government official before some other committee of Congress that he was on. He called me from Washington, said he would be in New York, he would like to see me. Would I find time to see him? So I said, "certainly." We made an appointment. I told him I would be at- I had two offices, one downtown about 42nd Street and one up near Columbia. And I would come down to the downtown office. He called me about the time I expected, and said, rather than come to my office, would I come over to the Hotel Commodore where he was staying, and then for the first time he said, "Oh and there will be one or two others with me." And I think he mentioned Nixon. I smelled something of a rat and said to one of my associates who was head of the Carnegie Foundation and had offices in same suite that this sounded a little peculiar to me. Would he come over with me. I thought I would like to have a friend along. And when I got to Mr. McDowell's room, it was a suite and was set up as a hearing room with members of the committee staff, stenographer, obviously. We were going to have something like a secret hearing, which they had frequently. It was then promptly announced that I had asked to see Mr. Chambers. I was now going to have the opportunity to confront him. And so instead of a public confrontation a week later, this sudden confrontation was arranged by them. And as I sat there, I suddenly realized, or decided I knew, why this had been done. They'd had Harry Dexter White before them a few days before. He was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, largely responsible for the Bretton Woods Conference, and for the entire monetary system which the world has lived under- the western world, until very recently. When there have been changes. White had testified he'd been attacked not only by Miss Bentley, the woman I spoke of before, but also by Chambers. It was another of people Chambers attacked. In the course of that hearing, White handed a note up, saying that he'd had a heart attack. That his doctor had suggested that the strain would not be good if he testified for more than two hours at a time. I think Parnell Thomas was the chairman of the committee, at the time- he was when I appeared. I think he was present then. And Thomas made snide remarks about "oh, you sent up this thing saying you suffer from a heart attack. Well you were just talking about playing handball. Doesn't sound like a man with a heart attack." And White said with great dignity, "I was testifying then about 15 years ago, and, then, I was quite an active handball player and a rather good one. But I'm- the heart attack is quite recent." At any rate, his request was denied- sort of made fun of. And the very next day, on the way back to his home, he had a heart attack and died within a day or two. News of his death had just come out. I had learned of it that morning before I came from my uptown office to my downtown office. And suddenly, as the confrontation was presented, I put two and two together. They did not wish the headlines of one of their witnesses whom they had bullied and pilloried, dying, to- not to be counteracted by a new headline that they had had me-

Studs Terkel Yeah

Alger Hiss confront my accuser. And this seemed to me very shoddy.

Studs Terkel And so there

Alger Hiss it [Discussing?]

Studs Terkel Was, and so, they wanted to have Chambers, whom you had, 'parently- you remembered now as Crossley-

Alger Hiss I- I asked for the chance to ask him some questions. A rumpled, fat man- much fatter than Crossley had been when I knew him, sort of ambled into the room sheepishly. He never looked at me while he sat there. He was introduced as Chambers. He took an oath as I had already, and I asked for permission to ask him some questions, and in the course of my asking him questions, I could-

Studs Terkel I'm thinkin' that- as your- as you're talking now, Mr. Hiss. Alger Hiss. I know an hour is gonna go, 'cau we have about- we have about 15 minutes left, and I'm thinking this is ridiculous. We're just beginning to get to it. We'll come to a few things I'd like to ask you. The book- the book itself deals with this incredible aspect of the media, of trial by headline, and Chambers mean to have them invited in various programs, Members of the committee. He was- were you ever invited to "Meet the Press?" A "Meet the Press"?

Alger Hiss No.

Studs Terkel You were never. But Chambers was

Alger Hiss

Studs Terkel I say to you the name Alger Hiss, what's that mean? Nothing. Nothing. Doesn't ring a bell. Doesn't ring any bell Nothing. Alger Hiss. It doesn't at No, I'm not familiar with that name at all. How old would you be, by the way? 25. 25. The name Alger Hiss. I don't know, it it vaguely means something political to me. And that's all? Yes. [unintelligible] She's some relation to Horatio Alger. If I say to you- Horatio Alger? [Laughter] She's some relation to Horatio Alger- Oh, no. No, what I was gonna say is I think I've read the person's name in the news lately, but I- I can't- I can't- Yeah. remember exactly. You don't recall. How old are you? 26. Alger Hiss, what's that name mean to you? Dirty commie spy. That's what I've always thought about him. When did you- how did you know? How did you- As a kid, he was the prototype of of this sort of undercover, sneaky person. You know. You gotta to be careful not to trust anybody who they're like him. People who look like him. Yeah. Do you know what he looks like? He was kind of nice looking as I recall. Didn't he have a mustache? No- I don't know if he did or not. But vaguely, what do you think he looked like if you remember? He was medium height, maybe 5' 10". I thought he had kind of graying hair as I recall. Maybe it's just from seeing his pictures in the newspaper that he looked like that. But I was very young at the time- Yeah. Well [when I say the name?] Alger Hiss now, what does it mean to you? The same thing. Yeah. Actually- Yeah. I al- I sort of get him mixed up with that woman- what was her name? Rosenberg? They were all sort of around the same time it seemed to me- The In my mind, yeah. Who- what happened to them? Do you know? I don't know. What happened to the Rosenbergs? I just remember they had a trial and it was a big thing in the newspapers. You know what happened to them? No. Do they get killed? [laughter] I can't remember. I was just, you know, in grammar school. But as the names come up today, you associate the two- These are just real evil people that were exposed. That's where it is today. You read nothing further about them? No. No. To me, it j- it brings up the witch-hunting of the '50s. I think he was a he was a lower echelon, maybe not a clerk, but someone in the State Department, who I have a feeling was- was framed largely because he was Black and liberal- Because he was Black and liberal- Yeah. And I know that Nixon was involved in it and came off with a dirty face, and I don't remember too much- I don't know too much else about it. Except that his name was linked with McCarthyism. Yeah. And generally that he was a scapegoat. What does he look like? Do you remember? I remember he was very light. I didn't know he was Black until I read it. That's all. Yeah. That's about it. Where did you read the news that he was Black? I don't know. Life magazine, maybe? But that's about it. I remember there's a typewriter that was used to incriminate him, and it wasn't- it was perhaps circumstantial evidence, but that's about all I know. Any other- He was with the Red Scare, and that's about it. You recall any other name connected with Hiss? Nixon. McCarthy. Yeah. Does the name Whittaker Chambers mean anything Yeah. What's Yeah sure. Was he a journalist who was red-baiting at the time? Remember the nature of his- the circumstances? No. Involving Whittaker Chambers? No. I just remember that the whole thing was kind of a specious argument. But that-that's that. So when you hear the name Alger Hiss today, what is the first reaction? I think of it as being sort of a government frameup trying to find a scapegoat. Well, at first it it took me a minute, and this is the truth. I I I thought, the other name's familiar, and then I I think he he was arrested as a spy- I think in New York, a big ringleader or something supposedly. Because I remember he looked like anybody else. Very average. Name Hiss today would evoke what? I don't know. He was a little, you know- I don't remem- what- my memories of him come from a few months ago, they had on TV the- the movie "The FBI Story." Ah ha. And he was mentioned in that. He was mentioned in there. So that's it. So when you hear the name today what do you think of? Think, yeah. Nothing in particular. I'm gonna try someone from another generation. Yeah. It is- me- it's an unpleasant memory, and it has to do with the McCarthy period. And he was suspected, I think, of being a spy. And it it really is an unpleasant memory. You don't remember the case? Was it- was there a case involving him, do you recall? Yeah, well there was a lot of big to-do. Do you recall- That's about all I can remember. Yeah. When you hear the name today, what is the emotion evoked? Suspicion. The name sounds familiar but I don't remember what he did. I mean I've heard about him. Yeah, well is there any particular feeling when you hear the name? Let's see what c- I know it's not a good name. I mean, it isn't. But from the '50s, that's about all I remember. I was just thinking was he one of- one- was he one of the prisoners that was released possibly. No. I'm wrong. All right. You mean- you think he might have one of the P.O.W.'s- Yeah. Is that what you mean? Yeah. No. Well I remember the name. Something back in the '50s or so. Something about being convicted as a spy for giving, I think it was atomic secrets to Russia, or something like that. But I don't remember much about it because I was in a small town. We just took it for granted, that was it. And we didn't think anymore of it. I mean the guy's a commie or something, and that was it. S'all I remember. And I remember McCarthy was something to do with it or in that era, anyway. And then he went into some kind of communist hunting- hunting you know for everybody who was slight in association or something. And I was very agreeable at the time. I came from a small town- a very, very conservative. Boy, go get 'em, you know. And I remember very little, I mean, the reason I, don't remember very much, we just took it for granted anything they did was, you know- they found a communist, or giving a spy- give 'em the business, that's it. And I agree with the a lot of things, until I found out a little bit about life. When McCarthur was kicked out of Korea, you know, I agreed with MacArthur, you know. Cause I found out a little bit more about what is [and 'nt?]. We were just not fed anything but what they wanted us to. So if I say the name Alger Hiss to you now, what would it mean emotionally? Well I have to think now, it's ma- might be substantially different because I see things happening today where if you don't agree with somebody, you can be either somebody tries to discredit you or you don't get anywhere. You're beating your head against a wall. You don't get any- you don't know why. And if you don't agree with the system, you just don't get anywhere. I've learned a lot about life since those days in that little town. Well he's very fam- I mean, it's very famous. Well, in what way? Well he was convicted of perjury in- in connection with with Whittaker Chambers, or on the witness of Whittaker Chambers. In, God, I don't know, '50? '51? Something like that? And and, well, and, you know, has proclaimed his innocence ever since. That's all, you know. I-- Remember how it began or the basis of it? Well, you mean the Pumpkin Papers and things like that? Oh, you [unintelligible]. I'm 26. If I say to you the name Alger Hiss, What does that mean? He was a communist something. That's about it. I know he was like the communist spy or something but I have- I don't recall much about him or what time, I You don't know when or? Probably go back to the '50s, because I don't really remember much about it. Yeah. Well, how did you get the idea that he was that? I've heard- oh, 'cause I've heard their name many times. I guess it's through school or something like that. You remember where you heard the name or no? Well, obviously in school. I say the name Alger Hiss to you. What does that mean? I think first of the then Senator Nixon who, in my impression, largely made his career yelling about Alger Hiss being a communist. Hiss, I believe, worked in the State Department and this would have been about 1948- close as I can get Now you're, I would guess, late 40s. Something like that. Mid-40s. Or early 50s. I remember the name very much. Time of the Julius Rosenberg trial, I believe. He was involved- whether he was involved or not, I really don't- don't remember that much about it, but I think he got a ba- a lot of bad publicity at the time. And I think McCarthyism was involved at that time, and I think that was part of the reason the man got the publicity he got, am I right? Or do I recall well enough don't I'd say, good enough. Yeah. Do you- so what's your emotion? What is your feeling now when you hear the name? Nothing bad at all really. At the time, I think, at the time I may have, but I don't think I do today. So you mentioned McCarthyism, that's interesting, yeah. I think that was at the time when lots of people got some bad publicity whether they were necessarily bad or not, I don't know. Yeah. Now if I say a name to you, your first reaction? Alger Hiss. Richard Nixon. Okay, why why do you say that? It, to me, is back in the McCarthy era. Do you recall anything about- Very little. Very little. Was there- I just went to see "The Case of Oppenheimer" at the Goodman which filled in that- I didn't know about that. So- Was there a case involving Alger Hiss? There was, but I can't tell you much about it. You don't recall what it was. No. It's very- Any- why do you associate Nixon with it? Why, what's Nixon? That was- that whole era. Why I did, I don't know. I think its my reaction after seeing the Oppenheimer thing was that- the thing is, the whole attitude is still prevalent. At the time- The suspicion, and the the accusing, and the- and it was what? You're pretty good. Around the time of McCarthy and- You're pretty good. He was- he wasn't with Anna Rosenberg, was he? That's a different thing. With who? The Rosenbergs. And what's the first name you mentioned? Anna. Who was Anna Rosenberg? She was tried as giving away secrets to the Russians, as I remember. I'm not positive. Anna Ro- you said Anna. Wasn't it? That's interesting. It was Ethel, but that's alright. Ethel, OK. That's OK. Anna was a member of Roosevelt's New Deal Administration. Oh. You weren't- that's intersting. Do you know what happened to her? No. Ethel Rosenberg. Uh-uh. You don't recall? I really don't. There was a case involving Rosenberg, is that right? As far- well- what these things were, when I- I grew up in a- I grew up very sheltered and very much in a conservative, medium-sized town in the Midwest. And these people did not seem real at all. These people- [would Meaning Alger Hiss or Ethel Rosenberg- Wait just a second this is- Alright, or- Or J. Robert Oppenheimer. Didn't seem real. They did not seem real at all. And I went to a private college that was very conservative, and I started to learn about the world and what had happened when I started to work for a newspaper. So- I mean I'm embarrassed as hell about this- No. No. No. Cause that's really a void in my knowledge. It's not you who should be embarrassed, but rather- this is my editorial now after having many voices- the nature of the media and what they've done to us. Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author? "Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author?" Voices you've been hearing, and I'm sitting opposite the hero, the villain, of these voices Alger Hiss is seated here. He is just- a book has been republished, book he writ several years ago- his reflections concerning his case, his conviction. "In the Court of Public Opinion," Harper Colophon Books. Alger Hiss, you're seated here right now, and you're smiling, and maybe you're sad or happy in hearing these thoughts. Your reflections. When you just said that you thought the media were largely responsible. I noticed several of the people who spoke, spoke of their schooling as responsible. Maybe it's not easy to separate the media from the schools, but I think our schooling, for many, many years, on all important issuses- I'm not referring to myself as important, but on the Cold War, on the origins of what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex and what it stood for. I think our schooling was very deficient. And then a big change in the young people today, who are in college or who've recently been to college, all over the country, small colleges as well as big colleges have a very different, more involved, and more, I think, accurate sense of what's going on. I was thinking as you talked, you heard a variety of voices, there was some humorous one- I'm thinking also about what history and memory does and the distortion of history and sensationalism. Like, one thought you were Black. I thought that was an honor. During the New Deal, people thought I was Jewish, and I was pleased to have that because- I take it, you are, if I may just say so- Alger Hiss is of an old, old WASP family- I'm a WASP. But it's interesting- But all Southerners probably have some Negro blood so- I hope that maybe some of that- Are you Southern originally? Yes, Maryland. Maryland. Border state. And someone- I'm thinking of other thoughts. One kid thought, "what's it he, is he one of the P.O.W's?" Raises-. That was an interesting- that was an interesting- Yeah. Time switch, wasn't it? I suppose what that indicates is that, any name that is read about- one of 'em said all the people- they mentioned Oppenheimer, mentioned me, were unreal- mentioned the Rosenbergs. And I suppose that a name which is in the press, or on the radio, on television, must cause great confusion. Anna Rosenberg got mixed with Ethel Rosenberg- And Anna Rosenberg was a member of Roosevelt's- She definitely was part of Roosevelt's subcabinet, very important [in dealing?], and still a very vigorous lady. She's now married to Paul Hoffman, the man who started the whole U.N. program for underdeveloped countries. Paul Hoffman the industrialist- Used to be with his Studebaker Studebaker. That's interest- but, you're saying something now, perhaps may be the key. We'll come to you now on the case and to the name of Nixon, come up- we'll come to that in a moment. But, it's interesting is, you spoke of names in the news. The fact is you were, for better or for worse, a celebrity. This is the point, you see. This is what we're talking about, aren't we? Names, the admixture, everything better or worse- the media did something. We'll come in a moment to the morality or amorality of it, you know. Yes I think that's very true. I think the media feeds on sensation, and it feeds on names that can be ballyhooed, whether they are acting- just think of the names that these young people would have known from having gone to motion pictures. If you'd them some motion picture names they have known Incidentally, one said he remembered you, [Coughing] But he saw you on, obviously the Efrem Zimbalist F.B.I. show, see. There, too, the media. There it That's quite true. When I was in jail, "The F.B.I. Story" was one of the radio programs that was permitted to come in. We had I think two- two channels, one had things like the "F.B.I. Story," and the other had hillbilly music. But, yes, the FBI was a big media merchant- You know what we have to do now, Mr. Hiss? Alger Hiss, we have to go back now to beginnings, and it's your book. This is sort of a preface. I call it a sad, funny, seriocomic, tragic- one girl didn't know what happened to the Rosenbergs, where they killed? Were they not? Does it matter? We come now to the break in continuity, what's happened to young people, old people fears- one of the older persons said, "am I right? Am I right?" He wanted approval, too, you see? So now we come to you Alger Hiss, you said jail, we have to come back to beginnings. The book- may I just suggest- Harper Colophon, they republished this book. It came out, first came out- your thoughts about it. There were many books: one by Alistair Cooke, one, a wholly different one, by investigative reporter Fred Cook. Right. And a wide variety of 'em. This is Alger Hiss' own thoughts, transcripts, memories, feelings about the trial. And it's called "In the Court of Public Opinion" and it's available now. We start with you, how it began, yourself. Who are you? First of all, the job you had and what you did, you- you once a secretary for Mr. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. Right. First-year out of law school I served him- This Harvard? Yes. I went to Harvard Law School. I'm thinking now, in view what we just heard, many listeners may, too, have big gaps and voids, through no fault of their own. Suppose we start at the beginning and the I must say, I've recently been shocked that people didn't know the name Oliver Wendell Holmes. People didn't even recognize his photograph, which was a shock to me. He was a very handsome man all his life. One of the astonishing things about him was that in his lifetime, and that of his immediate forebears, he spanned the history of our country. He told me of hearing, at his grandmother's knee, of her watching the British enter Boston, and his house on Beacon Hill, his family house, was used by Lord Howe as the British headquarters. Justice Holmes was wounded three times in the Civil War, seriously. Once left for dead. Became a professor at the Harvard Law School. A great writer on the law before that. And he wrote a seminal book called, "The Common Law." Then he became a judge in the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, and Chief Justice. And then he went to Washington. Was appointed by Theodore Roosevelt as a Justice of the Supreme Court, and was there until the '30s when he retired. Astonishing. So you were secretary for Oliver Wendell Holmes, who spanned the history of our country. It was once said of an editor, Malcolm Barnes, who edited for Allen Unwin, spoke of Bertrand Russell, as having a span, his life and that of his grandfather, we knew. From Napoleon to leading the young people in the Aldermaston anti-bomb march. Isn't that amazing? Yes. I thought of Bertrand Russell and of Oliver Wendell Holmes that span- They both lived to be very old men. Holmes was just short of 95. So, you obviously had very auspicious beginnings. You were secretary of Oliver Wendell Holmes, and then you were member of Roosevelt's- I was one of the young New Dealers that went down. First I practiced law for a while in Boston and then in New York. And then, when the New Deal started, I came down very early, as many other young people. And you were there in Yalta. We'll come to that in a moment- Later. Later. Yes. And Dumbarton Oaks, too? Yes. Do you think Dumbarton Oaks [through the?] monetary matters? Dumbarton and- no, no. You may be mixing it with Bretton Woods- Bretton Woods, I am. here am I- [unintelligible] in my memory. So there its go, so why- Dumbarton Oaks was the preliminary to the San Francisco conference where the United Nations Charter was adopted. At Dumbarton Oaks, the charter was roughed out, was drafted. They were called conversations, not a real conference. The British, the Russians, and the Americans met, and then later the Chinese, and the Americans, and the British. So you had something to do then with helping in the charter of the United Nations? Yes, in a minor way, modestly. And then, this is Alger Hiss who spent time in jail. So now we come to- Roosevelt died, and something known as the Cold War began. Quite right. Almost immediately- Now. In the meantime you honored- became head of the Carnegie- Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. What was the nature of that job? Well I was the third president of an institution that Mr. Carnegie had set up to further the cause of peace. He'd always been interested in peace. He gave funds for the Hague Palace for the Court of International Justice, the one that was known as the Hague Court of International Arbitration. And he gave a substantial sum of money in those days, about ten million dollars, for a foundation, the Carnegie Endowment, who main purpose was to be the exploration of avenues of peace. When I was asked by John Foster Dulles if I would like to-- John Foster Dulles- Yes. Who asked He was the chairman of the board, and he asked me if I would consider being president. I was about to leave the State Department at that time anyway. And I said on condition that their new emphasis would be on the United Nations because of my interest in it. And he and the board, particularly a committee that interrogated me, Mr. John W. Davis and Mr. Wadsworth, I believe- This should be John W. Davis who was the presidential candidate- That's Of the Democrats in 1924 against- Wonderful Calvin Coolidge. Great man. And they agreed that that was an important continuation of Mr. Carnegie's purposes. And so when I moved in as president, this became our main activity and, to a large extent, they have continued it ever since. Well, this is your life thus far. Then your book begins. This book that I hold in my hand, if I may paraphrase, or quote, the late senator from Appleton, Wisconsin. I hold in my hands, Alger Hiss' book, "In The Court of Public Opinion", and it begins on a certain day that altered your life. I suspect the lives of millions of us, and I suspect, particularly, the life of Richard Nixon, too. August 1948- August 3rd, I think, wasn't it? Is it? it begins living in New York City. Well why don't you sort of recount in your way as were seated here right now. There had been some sensational hearings before the House Unamerican Activities Committee, as it was then called- I think it's called the House Internal Security Committee now- by a woman named Bentley and she attacked various government officials. Said they had been communist. Then a man named Whittaker Chambers appeared- and I think he appeared on August 3rd, 1948, at the height of Mr. Truman's campaign for re-election. Obviously the hearings had a great deal to do with politics. At the time, I didn't think of that. I merely learned from newspapermen calling me at my office that Whittaker Chambers had said that I was a communist, that he had been, and that he'd known me as a communist. I denied it and then immediately asked the committee if I could appear before them in order to deny it officially and under oath. And that was the beginning. Now the question is Whittaker Chambers. Now we come to one of the- in a perverse sort of way a fascinating- if one is reading [craft evening?] or whatever and just coming to- we come to, who is Whittaker Chambers. I'm afraid I don't know enough about him to answer that authoritatively. Though I think another book is coming out very shortly by somebody who's done a great deal of research on his life. I now know that he was born, I think, in Philadelphia. He's a man few years older than I. He went to Columbia. Before that he went briefly to Williams and had some kind of a religious, I would suspect, pose- anyway, a religious disinclination to stay at Williams. Went to Columbia, where he knew a great many people who later became quite well known. Was a student, among others, of Mark Van Doren. And, after disappearing from the public scene, got a job with Time magazine, when Harry Luce was the head of Time. You call him Harry Luce. That's interesting. Well my wife had worked for Time magazine and she knew him quite well, and so I phrased it- I didn't know him myself well enough to call him that, but he was-- he was known as Harry Luce by a great many people. And then, Chambers who, again, I learned later, had been famous around Time magazine for being the expert on communism, on Russia, on foreign affairs, and I should put expert in commas if I were writing it because, most knowledgeable people thought that his accounts were not only tendentious, but sensational and imaginative. Anyway, they pleased Mr. Luce, and then he appeared as a witness before the House committee. Why- and this is one of the mysteries, isn't it - why he picked on you? Well I wasn't the first. He, some years before, talking to Malcolm Cowley, an author and a writer-- Very excellent literary critic- Had told Cowley while they were lunching together that he, Chambers, knew all about communism and that Francis B. Sayre, who, incidentally, had been my chief. In the State Department? The State Department when I first went in and, during the days of Chambers was talking about, was the head of a Communist cell in the State Department. Malcolm Cowley, incredulous, said, "You don't mean Francis Sayre, President Wilson's son-in-law?" And Chambers said, Oh yes, he did. Now, whether Chambers then backed off after having tried that out, but, all the papers that Chambers introduced in making charges against me could, if he'd been brash enough to make such a charge, have been used to try to incriminate Mr. Sayre because they came to Mr. Sayre's office. They didn't come to me personally, they came to Mr. Sayre, where I was working. Talking to Alger Hiss right now, and the book is "In the Court of Public Opinion", his book, and he has not yet- you had not- do you know who Whittaker Chambers, was? You haven't been confronted with him yet. But in the meantime, [before you didn't?] faced you asked to see Whittaker Chambers. Yes. I asked if he were present. But, in the meantime, the headlines were immediately there. The- it was Mundt for one, and John Rankin- Yes. Of the Mississippi, who were headlining the dangers of Alger Hiss Mister Abert, who is now chairman of the House Military Affairs Committee. Meantime the papers have now all picked it up and, the headlines were that you were pretty much a dang- they were- they were being quoted, as you being a very dangerous man. And you had not yet met- That's quite true- The man who accused. The name meant nothing to me. I had never heard of Whittaker Chambers. Now I asked if he were there, and was told, "no, but it'll be arranged. You'll have a chance to meet him" You ask the House Unamerican Activities Committee. Yes. Of which a young member was Richard Nixon. Nixon was on the committee- We'll pause just for a moment and we'll return to Alger Hiss and his reflections. [pause in recording] Resuming the conversation with Alger Hiss, a name that is very familiar to many but, strangely enough, unfamiliar to many. The nature of history, continuity, the world, and he's visiting at the moment because of the republication- it's in paperback of this book that, it seems to me, if we are to maintain our sanity or regain our sanity, you know, little about history and deceit, dissemblance, and hysteria. His book "In the Court of Public Opinion" might be worth read- the word, public opinion, by the way is the title, "In the Court of Public Opinion." That's a significant title. You wanna know how I chose it? Why? It was partly ironical. The House Committee, which was anything but a real court, used to boast that their unfair proceedings were a kind of court, because they relied on publicity and public notoriety. And so they referred to the fact that they considered themselves a court of public opinion. Since I believe, I thought, more strongly in the wisdom of the public than they did, really. I felt that, when I got out of jail and wanted to write about my case, the proper forum was a real court of public opinion, namely, the public, to whom one could write a book without the publicity aides that the committee had, but just writing the story of what the evidence was, what the facts were, how it happened. So we return now to this, what seemed to have been a private matter that is they were- that you were public, headlines about you. You had denied the accusation of Whittaker Chambers, the man whom you did not recognize or know. You asked to see him and meet him. Yes. And now we come to a name, George Crossley. And we go back years now, don't we, to the Nye Committee, suppose you recount that Mister Hiss? The Nye Committee, which I'm afraid many of the young people you spoke to, spoke about, spoke with, also wouldn't know. During the early days of the New Deal, Senator Nye of North Dakota formed a congressional committee to investigate the munitions industry. He had quite a distinguished committee. Senator Vandenberg was on it. Senator Pope who later became one of the officials, one of the directors of TVA. Senator Bone. Homer Bone, who became a federal judge, still is, in the West Coast. And their task was to investigate the relationship between big munitions committees and, to use a phrase that one of them actually used in a letter, whether they fomented wars. One of the letters that was produced was of a man who accused other people of fomenting peace. Also, we went into the issue of whether the big munitions companies got extortionate profits from the government, particularly in time of war. So we went back- We're talking now about '34. '35. Around there. Yes. But we also went back into the history of World War One to see what Dupont and some of the other big companies had done then. We both examined what the munitions companies had done in time of war and what they were doing in time of peace in the '30s. Some of the airplane companies, some of the companies that made guns, ammunition, and so on, and we found that there were close connections with the big, similar institutions abroad like Bofor's in Sweden, Schneider-Creusot in France, comparable companies in Czechoslovakia, and really all over the world. They had sort of a cartel. Anyway, that was a rather famous series of hearings. And I was lent by my department, then the Department of Agriculture, where I first joined the New Deal, as counsel, because I had been trained as a lawyer. The committee had very, very few people on the staff and not much in the way of funds. But, they did borrow officials from the government and since, on the committee were several members of the Agricultural Committee of the Senate, Secretary Wallace, when they asked for my services lent me to them, and I tried to do two jobs at once, as their counsel and It was during that time you were living in Washington, and there you ran into someone, now you're- now, you're trying to figure out who this guy who accused you This is how I first met a man named Crossley. I met many, many people. It was my duty to talk to those who were writing books, lectures, newspaper men, because the committee wanted publicity about its efforts. And one of the people who called on me was a man who gave the name of George Crossley. Said he was writing an article, I understood, for the American Magazine about the committee, and so I saw him, oh, a number of times. We had lunch together, I went over some of the transcript with him, some of the exhibits that we'd put in the record. And at one period when he said he wanted to come down to Washington to work more full time- he said he lived in New York, and that he wanted to bring his wife and small child to Washington. I said that I had an apartment that I just moved out of, I was about to move out of, I'd be glad to let him use it. I thought this was good public relations for the committee. Here was a man who was writing seriously, I believed, about the committee. At that time, I had no prospect of of finding a tenant for an apartment that only had a few more months to go, so I said if he would pay me my rental costs, he and his wife and child could live in the apartment, and I left enough furniture so that they had it as a furnished apartment. You let him use an old car of yours, too- I also lent him an old Ford car I had because, about that time, I was acquiring another car. And it was a car that I had been offered 25 dollars for on the trade in. It was a car that I had got when it was new, just at the time I'd got married in '29, I was sentimentally attached to it, and I didn't want to have it go to a stranger for only 25 dollars, and so I gave it to Mr. Chambers eventually. Now you said Mr. Chambers just now- This is what his real name was- So George Crossley- The same fellow Crossley [unintelligible] Chambers- Was Whittaker Chambers. This is after you finally were allowed to confront him. You had ask for some time. Allowed is an interesting word, because it had been announced that there would be a confrontation, public confrontation, on the 25th of August. It didn't occur that way. I got a call from Mr. McDowell of the committee, whom I had known when I appeared as a government official before some other committee of Congress that he was on. He called me from Washington, said he would be in New York, he would like to see me. Would I find time to see him? So I said, "certainly." We made an appointment. I told him I would be at- I had two offices, one downtown about 42nd Street and one up near Columbia. And I would come down to the downtown office. He called me about the time I expected, and said, rather than come to my office, would I come over to the Hotel Commodore where he was staying, and then for the first time he said, "Oh and there will be one or two others with me." And I think he mentioned Nixon. I smelled something of a rat and said to one of my associates who was head of the Carnegie Foundation and had offices in same suite that this sounded a little peculiar to me. Would he come over with me. I thought I would like to have a friend along. And when I got to Mr. McDowell's room, it was a suite and was set up as a hearing room with members of the committee staff, stenographer, obviously. We were going to have something like a secret hearing, which they had frequently. It was then promptly announced that I had asked to see Mr. Chambers. I was now going to have the opportunity to confront him. And so instead of a public confrontation a week later, this sudden confrontation was arranged by them. And as I sat there, I suddenly realized, or decided I knew, why this had been done. They'd had Harry Dexter White before them a few days before. He was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, largely responsible for the Bretton Woods Conference, and for the entire monetary system which the world has lived under- the western world, until very recently. When there have been changes. White had testified he'd been attacked not only by Miss Bentley, the woman I spoke of before, but also by Chambers. It was another of people Chambers attacked. In the course of that hearing, White handed a note up, saying that he'd had a heart attack. That his doctor had suggested that the strain would not be good if he testified for more than two hours at a time. I think Parnell Thomas was the chairman of the committee, at the time- he was when I appeared. I think he was present then. And Thomas made snide remarks about "oh, you sent up this thing saying you suffer from a heart attack. Well you were just talking about playing handball. Doesn't sound like a man with a heart attack." And White said with great dignity, "I was testifying then about 15 years ago, and, then, I was quite an active handball player and a rather good one. But I'm- the heart attack is quite recent." At any rate, his request was denied- sort of made fun of. And the very next day, on the way back to his home, he had a heart attack and died within a day or two. News of his death had just come out. I had learned of it that morning before I came from my uptown office to my downtown office. And suddenly, as the confrontation was presented, I put two and two together. They did not wish the headlines of one of their witnesses whom they had bullied and pilloried, dying, to- not to be counteracted by a new headline that they had had me- Yeah confront my accuser. And this seemed to me very shoddy. And so there it [Discussing?] Was, and so, they wanted to have Chambers, whom you had, 'parently- you remembered now as Crossley- I- I asked for the chance to ask him some questions. A rumpled, fat man- much fatter than Crossley had been when I knew him, sort of ambled into the room sheepishly. He never looked at me while he sat there. He was introduced as Chambers. He took an oath as I had already, and I asked for permission to ask him some questions, and in the course of my asking him questions, I could- I'm thinkin' that- as your- as you're talking now, Mr. Hiss. Alger Hiss. I know an hour is gonna go, 'cau we have about- we have about 15 minutes left, and I'm thinking this is ridiculous. We're just beginning to get to it. We'll come to a few things I'd like to ask you. The book- the book itself deals with this incredible aspect of the media, of trial by headline, and Chambers mean to have them invited in various programs, Members of the committee. He was- were you ever invited to "Meet the Press?" A "Meet the Press"? No. You were never. But Chambers was on- [coughing] Meet