Timothy Leary talks with Studs Terkel ; part 1
BROADCAST: Dec. 1, 1966 | DURATION: 00:15:34
Synopsis
Interviewing Timothy Leary.
Transcript
Tap within the transcript to jump to that part of the audio.
Studs Terkel I think it was somewhere in the- in the Village Voice, one of the columnist was speaking of the poet of the new generation is Bob Dylan. The philosopher of the new generation, Dr. Timothy Leary, our guest this morning, who will be offering a psychedelic celebration January, 7th, the night of January 7th at the Arie Crown Theater, and more of this phrase psychedelic celebration, the very word itself. In fact, the name of Dr. Leary you might call a trigger name. Timothy Leary is now, perhaps, as well-known a na- a name as a movie star. So where to begin, Dr. Leary, with the idea of your influence, and- as well as your philosophy, your religion, the thoughts involving psychedelic celebrations. We know that it's reached the Beatles. The Beatles have been affected by it in one of their recent songs in- in the album "Revolver." Haven't we?
Timothy Leary Yes. In the last few years we have been teaching people how to use these powerful new chemicals for serious purposes, and we have worked very closely with artists, writers, and musicians so that, as it's well known, many songs, many compositions, many paintings, these days involve what's called psychedelic art. People have new insights. Their creativity is opened up, and they express it, as people have always done throughout history in song and in new ways of expressing- communicating-
Studs Terkel You say people have throughout history- before we hear an example of the Beatles and this particular song. You're implying- you're speaking of an outside influence, a chemical, you said. You mean LSD?
Timothy Leary Not necessarily-
Studs Terkel No.
Timothy Leary What I'm saying is that throughout human history men have been turned on to a vision greater than themselves-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Timothy Leary Now, they've done this in many different ways: through prayer, fasting, going out in the desert, chanting, dance, and so forth. We have started a religion, as you know, and it's one of the criteria, one of the tests of the new religion, that it has to produce a new form of art, and we have that today in United States. Psychedelic art, psychedelic music, psychedelic design. Your leading architect in Chicago, Mr. Goldberg, calls his architecture psychedelic architecture. This is happening all over the country, and we think that it's inevitable that this'd happen if our new way of looking at things makes sense-
Studs Terkel Well, we'll sort of- you don't mind, I'll sort of act as a gadfly, here-
Timothy Leary Absolutely.
Timothy Leary In our conversation. Perhaps challenge a few of the phrases, or ask you, perhaps, to be more specific. Psychedelic. The use of the word itself, psychedelic. Meaning what? I mean, as you would- as you would- not so much define it as describe it, you know.
Timothy Leary Yes. Psy- psychedelic means mind opening, that you go beyond the symbols of the tribe of Chicago, United States, and you tune in on [match strikes] ancient wisdoms which are inside your body.
Studs Terkel Yeah, well, isn't that the phrase you- tune in- how's the phrase go now?
Timothy Leary Well, our- the motto our religion
Timothy Leary "Turn on, tune in, and drop out." I want to explain what I mean by that later, but, by by turn on we mean a religious experience, of contacting some energy and intelligence which is greater than yourself. Now, I'd like to- instead of just talking about this, as an example, let's play this Beatles record. It's on the new album "Revolver." Now let me explain a little about this record before you listen to it. About four years ago, we wrote a manual for people who want to take LSD and have a religious experience. See, we're very serious about LSD. We don't think it should be used just for kicks. You have to prepare for it, and we think it can produce a religious experience. We based this manual on "The Tibetan Book of the Dead." Then, last year, the Beatles took over some of the lines from this book. This is a book of instructions as to how to feel when you take LSD. Turn off your mind. Trust God. Float downstream. Join the- the great energy process. These are the- this is the theme of this song you're about to hear. I also want to say something about the music, the the instruments. People who have been involved in the religious aspects of psychedelic drugs or the artistic aspects have gone back to the ancient instruments. Many of our new rock and roll groups use the flute. They use Indian drums. They use the
Studs Terkel The tabla, the sitar-
Timothy Leary The tabla and the sitar. Now, on this Beatles album, you're gonna hear the sitar. You're also gonna hear in this record strange cries. These cries are very similar- I think that they're probably taken, in part, from the psychedelic ceremonies of the Tibetan Buddhists. They get high in their worship ceremonies, and this is the kind of music that they use to turn on, so that both the lyrics and the instruments and the background noise is religious psychedelic. ["Tomorrow Never Knows" by The Beatles plays]
Studs Terkel And that's the Beatles and "Tomorrow Never Knows," and what our guest, Timothy Leary, Dr. Leary, would describe as a- a psychedelic inspired song.
Timothy Leary Yes. That's typical of what's known as acid rock, of music which has been inspired by a psychedelic experience. Now, some of the characteristics of psychedelic art are, it's timeless. It goes back in history. It goes back to the other continents, particularly to the East. And that's very typical of psychedelic art. The second thing about it is, as I say, it has religious lyrics. You notice they say, "this is not dying. Trust. Believe. Love is everyone. This is believing." You'll notice in many of the so-called acid rock and roll bands.
Studs Terkel Why's it called acid?. Why call it Acid?
Timothy Leary It's lysurgic acid.
Studs Terkel Oh, because of LSD, again. Yeah.
Timothy Leary Yeah. We don't use the word acid, it's a- it's a younger generation term, and I think it kind of is a hip term. We- we- we treat LSD, as you know, as a sacrament, and we treat it with a tremendous amount of respect and reverence-
Studs Terkel Perhaps we could- perhaps we could dispose of that, now, this is this- this question in the minds of listeners, I'm sure, LSD, the nature of it. And then, perhaps talk about the religion, the philosophy, the Oriental aspects of- of psychedelic experiences. LSD, this is a question often asked, the use of it, and, of course, the- the possible deleterious effects, naturally. You know, the horrible experiences some have had, as
Timothy Leary Yes. See, LSD produces a deep religious experience, and, just as throughout religious history, the mystic or visionary experience, or the contact with God of St. Paul on the road to-
Studs Terkel Damascus
Timothy Leary Damascus and St. John of the cross, that dark night of the soul. The mystic experience always has this dark side to it. It used to be called in religious terms- today psychiatrists call it psychosis. Psychosis is that moment when your mind is stripped away, and you're confronting, you know, the naked meaning, and you grasp around wondering what is it all about. This does happen during an LSD experience. That's why we never urge anyone to take LSD. We don't want it sold in the drug stores or in vending machines. We tell people you must be very prepared- to use the religious terminology you should be in a state of grace. You should be prepared to lose your mind and to confront, you know, like naked-
Studs Terkel Would you suggest-
Timothy Leary Reality.
Studs Terkel Would you suggest a doctor prescription for this, the- or care
Timothy Leary Absolutely not. There's one thing I wanna make clear, this country is being taken over by a medical bureaucracy. It's well-meaning, but it's completely atheistic, materialistic, and wrong. Doctors should have nothing to do with LSD or marijuana. Does the Catholic want the doctor to take over his sacrament? The wine and the bread? You must not be confused
Studs Terkel I'm thinking of health-
Timothy Leary LSD is not a research tool. It's not a psychiatric tool. It's a spiritual, artistic experience, and keep the doctors out, please.
Studs Terkel Now I'm thinking, Dr. Leary- Dr. Leary-
Studs Terkel This is Ph.D. Leary, rather than M.D. Dr. Leary.
Timothy Leary Yes.
Studs Terkel Timothy Leary, you know, I'm thinking of the aspect of health. I mean, it's quite possible that it may have a deleterious experience upon some people more than others-
Timothy Leary Well, there's no evidence so far that LSD affects the body one way or the other. It- it is specific to the nervous system and to consciousness. But, we don't know. It may turn out in 10 years that LSD will make you turn purple or it may cure cancer, or it may grow a third eye. We don't know, and any time you take LSD your- it's a risk. Of course, penicillin is a risk. We don't know the effects of television beaming into our eyes. So, that all these things are risk in a technological society, and I want to point out that, anyone who takes LSD know- should know that he is opening up and tampering with the most delicate instrument known to man: your own brain.
Studs Terkel Cause you have heard- I'm sure you have come across people who've had traumatic experiences- not good-
Timothy Leary Oh, of course. I don't think you can have an LSD experience and not have some moments of terror. The confrontation with God's energy is awe full. It's full of awe. Every time I take- I've taken LSD, and I've taken it over 350 times, I've been frightened. You- you get right down to that bedrock. What's it all about? And it's at that moment that you have to reach for some meaning, and that's why we call it a religious experience. At the time you have to learn to pray. We've just published a- a prayer book, called "Psychedelic Prayers," teaching people how to use this manual, and at those moments of confusion-
Studs Terkel What, for example would be a psychedelic prayer. The nature of one, say?
Timothy Leary What is a psychedelic prayer?
Studs Terkel Yeah, I mean, can you offer-
Timothy Leary Well, you just heard one. The-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Timothy Leary The Beatles record you just heard is a psychedelic prayer. It's saying, as prayers have always said, "trust the flow. Turn off your mind. Don't worry. Go back to the beginning. This is not dying. Trust." that's a prayer you just heard.
Studs Terkel You know, could you sp- creativity obviously is one of the aspects to make a person more creative.
Timothy Leary Yes.
Studs Terkel To find the untapped self or the naked self, but, Dr. Leary-
Timothy Leary That's the aim of our game.
Studs Terkel The aim- the aim and the name of it, too.
Timothy Leary Right.
Studs Terkel But, Dr. Leary, isn't a case, though- creative experience through the years- through centuries, have always had an inner- that is, the vision has come from within rather than some outside, as this would imply. An outside stimulant, to say-
Timothy Leary Yes. I'm glad you raised that question. See the LSD experiences is inner. LSD is the key to trigger off- to open up the inner region, and throughout human history, men have always used external methods for turning themselves on-
Studs Terkel Have
Timothy Leary Of course. They use the rose window at Chartres. They use incense. They use the the gesture prayer. They use positions of the body, like genuflection. They use breathing where they- they regulate the amount of oxygen that comes in. They use special foods and- or they fast. These are all extra- people use the Bible. See, when the printing press was first discovered, that was a psychedelic method. They had the same arguments, the fellows that ran the establishment, the- the National Institute of Mental Health back in the days of the printing press said, "you can't let the average person have the Bible. Why, that should be reserved to the special fellow." 'Cause the Bible blew the whole thing out the window. "Any man," said Luther- so you can turn on with a Bible and face God himself, so that man has used external means to open up the internal, and let's not be confused about LSD being external. Everything that's sacramental is external, but the aim is to- to produce the creative-
Studs Terkel Your approach, then, is anti-elitist, really is what is-
Timothy Leary Absolutely.
Studs Terkel Ant- anti-elitist-
Timothy Leary There's no professional person, there's no bureaucrat, however well-meaning, who can solve your psychological problems or your spiritual problems or your creative problems, and if you wait around 'til Washington or Rome sends down the word that this is medically approved, you're gonna wait a long time.
Studs Terkel Because back to this outside, if I may, this inner impulse as against something about- you say this is inner. [Yeah?], not there- I would raise, say, a question, maybe, say- say Shakespeare or Mozart or Bach. I wonder- you spoke of those who needed- who used certain kinds of foods or-
Timothy Leary
Studs Terkel I think it was somewhere in the- in the Village Voice, one of the columnist was speaking of the poet of the new generation is Bob Dylan. The philosopher of the new generation, Dr. Timothy Leary, our guest this morning, who will be offering a psychedelic celebration January, 7th, the night of January 7th at the Arie Crown Theater, and more of this phrase psychedelic celebration, the very word itself. In fact, the name of Dr. Leary you might call a trigger name. Timothy Leary is now, perhaps, as well-known a na- a name as a movie star. So where to begin, Dr. Leary, with the idea of your influence, and- as well as your philosophy, your religion, the thoughts involving psychedelic celebrations. We know that it's reached the Beatles. The Beatles have been affected by it in one of their recent songs in- in the album "Revolver." Haven't we? Yes. In the last few years we have been teaching people how to use these powerful new chemicals for serious purposes, and we have worked very closely with artists, writers, and musicians so that, as it's well known, many songs, many compositions, many paintings, these days involve what's called psychedelic art. People have new insights. Their creativity is opened up, and they express it, as people have always done throughout history in song and in new ways of expressing- communicating- You say people have throughout history- before we hear an example of the Beatles and this particular song. You're implying- you're speaking of an outside influence, a chemical, you said. You mean LSD? Not necessarily- No. What I'm saying is that throughout human history men have been turned on to a vision greater than themselves- Yeah. Now, they've done this in many different ways: through prayer, fasting, going out in the desert, chanting, dance, and so forth. We have started a religion, as you know, and it's one of the criteria, one of the tests of the new religion, that it has to produce a new form of art, and we have that today in United States. Psychedelic art, psychedelic music, psychedelic design. Your leading architect in Chicago, Mr. Goldberg, calls his architecture psychedelic architecture. This is happening all over the country, and we think that it's inevitable that this'd happen if our new way of looking at things makes sense- Well, we'll sort of- you don't mind, I'll sort of act as a gadfly, here- Absolutely. In our conversation. Perhaps challenge a few of the phrases, or ask you, perhaps, to be more specific. Psychedelic. The use of the word itself, psychedelic. Meaning what? I mean, as you would- as you would- not so much define it as describe it, you know. Yes. Psy- psychedelic means mind opening, that you go beyond the symbols of the tribe of Chicago, United States, and you tune in on [match strikes] ancient wisdoms which are inside your body. Yeah, well, isn't that the phrase you- tune in- how's the phrase go now? Well, our- the motto our religion is- Yeah. "Turn on, tune in, and drop out." I want to explain what I mean by that later, but, by by turn on we mean a religious experience, of contacting some energy and intelligence which is greater than yourself. Now, I'd like to- instead of just talking about this, as an example, let's play this Beatles record. It's on the new album "Revolver." Now let me explain a little about this record before you listen to it. About four years ago, we wrote a manual for people who want to take LSD and have a religious experience. See, we're very serious about LSD. We don't think it should be used just for kicks. You have to prepare for it, and we think it can produce a religious experience. We based this manual on "The Tibetan Book of the Dead." Then, last year, the Beatles took over some of the lines from this book. This is a book of instructions as to how to feel when you take LSD. Turn off your mind. Trust God. Float downstream. Join the- the great energy process. These are the- this is the theme of this song you're about to hear. I also want to say something about the music, the the instruments. People who have been involved in the religious aspects of psychedelic drugs or the artistic aspects have gone back to the ancient instruments. Many of our new rock and roll groups use the flute. They use Indian drums. They use the Indian- The tabla, the sitar- The tabla and the sitar. Now, on this Beatles album, you're gonna hear the sitar. You're also gonna hear in this record strange cries. These cries are very similar- I think that they're probably taken, in part, from the psychedelic ceremonies of the Tibetan Buddhists. They get high in their worship ceremonies, and this is the kind of music that they use to turn on, so that both the lyrics and the instruments and the background noise is religious psychedelic. ["Tomorrow Never Knows" by The Beatles plays] And that's the Beatles and "Tomorrow Never Knows," and what our guest, Timothy Leary, Dr. Leary, would describe as a- a psychedelic inspired song. Yes. That's typical of what's known as acid rock, of music which has been inspired by a psychedelic experience. Now, some of the characteristics of psychedelic art are, it's timeless. It goes back in history. It goes back to the other continents, particularly to the East. And that's very typical of psychedelic art. The second thing about it is, as I say, it has religious lyrics. You notice they say, "this is not dying. Trust. Believe. Love is everyone. This is believing." You'll notice in many of the so-called acid rock and roll bands. Like Why's it called acid?. Why call it Acid? It's lysurgic acid. Oh, because of LSD, again. Yeah. We don't use the word acid, it's a- it's a younger generation term, and I think it kind of is a hip term. We- we- we treat LSD, as you know, as a sacrament, and we treat it with a tremendous amount of respect and reverence- Perhaps we could- perhaps we could dispose of that, now, this is this- this question in the minds of listeners, I'm sure, LSD, the nature of it. And then, perhaps talk about the religion, the philosophy, the Oriental aspects of- of psychedelic experiences. LSD, this is a question often asked, the use of it, and, of course, the- the possible deleterious effects, naturally. You know, the horrible experiences some have had, as well Yes. See, LSD produces a deep religious experience, and, just as throughout religious history, the mystic or visionary experience, or the contact with God of St. Paul on the road to- Damascus Damascus and St. John of the cross, that dark night of the soul. The mystic experience always has this dark side to it. It used to be called in religious terms- today psychiatrists call it psychosis. Psychosis is that moment when your mind is stripped away, and you're confronting, you know, the naked meaning, and you grasp around wondering what is it all about. This does happen during an LSD experience. That's why we never urge anyone to take LSD. We don't want it sold in the drug stores or in vending machines. We tell people you must be very prepared- to use the religious terminology you should be in a state of grace. You should be prepared to lose your mind and to confront, you know, like naked- Would you suggest- Reality. Would you suggest a doctor prescription for this, the- or care of Absolutely not. There's one thing I wanna make clear, this country is being taken over by a medical bureaucracy. It's well-meaning, but it's completely atheistic, materialistic, and wrong. Doctors should have nothing to do with LSD or marijuana. Does the Catholic want the doctor to take over his sacrament? The wine and the bread? You must not be confused about I'm thinking of health- LSD is not a research tool. It's not a psychiatric tool. It's a spiritual, artistic experience, and keep the doctors out, please. Now I'm thinking, Dr. Leary- Dr. Leary- Oh, yes- This is Ph.D. Leary, rather than M.D. Dr. Leary. Yes. Timothy Leary, you know, I'm thinking of the aspect of health. I mean, it's quite possible that it may have a deleterious experience upon some people more than others- Well, there's no evidence so far that LSD affects the body one way or the other. It- it is specific to the nervous system and to consciousness. But, we don't know. It may turn out in 10 years that LSD will make you turn purple or it may cure cancer, or it may grow a third eye. We don't know, and any time you take LSD your- it's a risk. Of course, penicillin is a risk. We don't know the effects of television beaming into our eyes. So, that all these things are risk in a technological society, and I want to point out that, anyone who takes LSD know- should know that he is opening up and tampering with the most delicate instrument known to man: your own brain. Cause you have heard- I'm sure you have come across people who've had traumatic experiences- not good- Oh, of course. I don't think you can have an LSD experience and not have some moments of terror. The confrontation with God's energy is awe full. It's full of awe. Every time I take- I've taken LSD, and I've taken it over 350 times, I've been frightened. You- you get right down to that bedrock. What's it all about? And it's at that moment that you have to reach for some meaning, and that's why we call it a religious experience. At the time you have to learn to pray. We've just published a- a prayer book, called "Psychedelic Prayers," teaching people how to use this manual, and at those moments of confusion- What, for example would be a psychedelic prayer. The nature of one, say? What is a psychedelic prayer? Yeah, I mean, can you offer- Well, you just heard one. The- Yeah. The Beatles record you just heard is a psychedelic prayer. It's saying, as prayers have always said, "trust the flow. Turn off your mind. Don't worry. Go back to the beginning. This is not dying. Trust." that's a prayer you just heard. You know, could you sp- creativity obviously is one of the aspects to make a person more creative. Yes. To find the untapped self or the naked self, but, Dr. Leary- That's the aim of our game. The aim- the aim and the name of it, too. Right. But, Dr. Leary, isn't a case, though- creative experience through the years- through centuries, have always had an inner- that is, the vision has come from within rather than some outside, as this would imply. An outside stimulant, to say- Yes. I'm glad you raised that question. See the LSD experiences is inner. LSD is the key to trigger off- to open up the inner region, and throughout human history, men have always used external methods for turning themselves on- Have Of course. They use the rose window at Chartres. They use incense. They use the the gesture prayer. They use positions of the body, like genuflection. They use breathing where they- they regulate the amount of oxygen that comes in. They use special foods and- or they fast. These are all extra- people use the Bible. See, when the printing press was first discovered, that was a psychedelic method. They had the same arguments, the fellows that ran the establishment, the- the National Institute of Mental Health back in the days of the printing press said, "you can't let the average person have the Bible. Why, that should be reserved to the special fellow." 'Cause the Bible blew the whole thing out the window. "Any man," said Luther- so you can turn on with a Bible and face God himself, so that man has used external means to open up the internal, and let's not be confused about LSD being external. Everything that's sacramental is external, but the aim is to- to produce the creative- Your approach, then, is anti-elitist, really is what is- Absolutely. Ant- anti-elitist- There's no professional person, there's no bureaucrat, however well-meaning, who can solve your psychological problems or your spiritual problems or your creative problems, and if you wait around 'til Washington or Rome sends down the word that this is medically approved, you're gonna wait a long time. Because back to this outside, if I may, this inner impulse as against something about- you say this is inner. [Yeah?], not there- I would raise, say, a question, maybe, say- say Shakespeare or Mozart or Bach. I wonder- you spoke of those who needed- who used certain kinds of foods or- Well, Certain
Timothy Leary Yeah, let's go to that. You see, music has been used for thousands of years to turn people on, drums, [match strike] chanting, the Gregorian chant, the Hindu chant, the Hindu flute. You know an Indian musician like Ali Akbar Khan-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Timothy Leary Or Ravi Shankar whom I- both of whom I know personally-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Timothy Leary Will tell you, "why we have-"
Studs Terkel Both have been on this program.
Timothy Leary Yeah. They're- they're both beautiful men. Their music is religious, and I talked to Ali Akbar Khan, he says, "you know, everything that you describe LSD, I get when I play. It is my way of turning on."
Studs Terkel That's the point. Now
Timothy Leary And he uses vibrations.
Studs Terkel But this is the point, Dr. Leary, again I- I should be the gadfly, that, in the case of two virtuosi, two talents such as Ali Akbar Khan or Ravi Shankar, or for that matter Western musicians who are quite good, excellent Jazz men or classic- classical artists. Do they need this outside, you see-
Timothy Leary Well-
Studs Terkel Nevertheless it is- you- you follow?
Timothy Leary Yes. You see, I'm not saying they should take LSD, they've got their outside thing, they've got their strings.
