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David Thompson, two Welshmen and Ann Thompson discuss rugby and Wales

DURATION: 00:50:30

Synopsis

Studs starts by talking to David Thompson and two Welshmen outside of a rugby tournament. He then ends talking to David Thompson's wife Ann.

Transcript

Tap within the transcript to jump to that part of the audio.

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Studs Terkel We're having a beer and a Coke and a couple of genial young Welshmen here drinking some beer and talking to one of the men selling the beer. How come you're not going into the second half? Wales is trailing eight three, what, were you coming here from South Wales, you say.

Welshman 1 That's right. Yes. But, as far as I'm concerned, the rugby's only incidental, I came up here for the trip really, and we couldn't get in. Well--

Welshman 2 We got

Welshman 1 But we didn't see much.

Studs Terkel How come?

Welshman 1 Well, the ball went up in the air twice and that's what we saw.

Studs Terkel Where were you when, on the terraces?

Welshman 1 Yeah, underneath the, what standard would that be?

Welshman 2 The south stand.

Welshman 1 The south stand.

Studs Terkel That's all you saw, the ball up twice and that was

Welshman 1 That's all I saw, because I'm only four foot six tall, and therefore the person in front of me was seven foot eight, and so I couldn't see anything except the top of the goalpost.

Welshman 2 With the red and white scarf of course, attached

Studs Terkel The red of the scarf, of course, being the symbol of the Welsh. Well, tell me, you came for the trip, was the trip an enjoyable one?

Welshman 1 So far. Yes.

Studs Terkel It was what?

Welshman 1 This is only part of it. This is only part of it.

Englishman What are you going to do this evening?

Welshman 1 This evening?

Welshman 2 Get drunk? We'll sing.

Welshman 1 We'll sing some more songs.

Studs Terkel I like the fluidity, the musicality of your language. Were you South Wales, where? Rhondda Valley?

Welshman 1 Rhondda Valley, that's right. Where the coal comes from. Or used to come from. Used to

Studs Terkel Why do you say "used to"?

Welshman 1 Well, all the mines are closed down there now.

Studs Terkel Is there a great deal of unemployment?

Welshman 1 Yes. I think it's ten percent, isn't

Welshman 2 It is pretty high as compared to the rest of the country then.

Studs Terkel You work as colliers?

Welshman 1 Oh, no. No.

Englishman What do you?

Welshman 1 Schoolteacher, of all things.

Welshman 2 A toolmaker.

Studs Terkel And you're a toolmaker. But earlier we're talking about Welsh and rugby and British and rugby. Wales everybody, it's a working man as well as, in among the English it's almost sort of

Welshman 2 Yes. Well, so the English is middle-class and upper-class, but to the Welsh it's a working-class sport. I hear them cheering, I think they must have scored again.

Studs Terkel You think? Incidentally, I notice even the crowd, even though the British are leading eight to three, the fervor seems to be Welsh rather than English. Isn't that so?

Welshman 2 I would think so, yes.

Studs Terkel The fervor.

Welshman 1 As far as the crowd are concerned, but as far as the team, I don't know. England seems to be doing much better. The little bit I saw.

Studs Terkel I'm talking now about the attitude

Welshman 1 Oh, the attitude, yeah.

Studs Terkel The fans.

Welshman 1 Oh, the fans, yeah.

Studs Terkel There's a difference, isn't it?

Welshman 1 Other than English Italy?

Studs Terkel So, tell me, the town you come from--

Welshman 2 In some ways, the English don't know how to enjoy themselves, do

Welshman 1 No, they'd rather stay, didn't they? They don't know how to let themselves go, you know.

Studs Terkel Tell me a little about this, talk

Welshman 1 Well, they're not, they've got so many barriers, haven't they? There's all the pubs you go in, in London, and they say, "no singing allowed," all this. Well, this is absolute rubbish, man, this isn't 20th century whatever it is. This is back in the dark age, isn't it? You take your license off you when you've got to sit down and just sip beer from dawn 'til dusk. Well, you've got to drink beer. Well, what for? You go out for a kick, don't you? [Unintelligible] You don't just go down there and sip a drink with your finger in the air. You just go out and drink. And you go out and drink to enjoy yourself, to sing. And, where I don't know if they sing, I can't say sing, because beer and singing goes together as far as I'm concerned. But as far as the English lot, it's not so much you just drink for the sake of drink if you're English, didn't you? No, you're English, would you explain this to me? I don't understand.

Englishman I can't explain it to you, but I think you're quite right. I think that English do drink much more seriously and quietly--

Welshman 1 Yeah!

Englishman And they do it when they're alone much more. Whereas the Welsh, I suppose you drink together.

Welshman 1 It's a sort of a--

Welshman 2 Also, I have the impression that the wives in England don't let their husbands out so much, whereas in Wales it's accepted that the husband can go out for a drink and the wife stays home. I think so.

Englishman Maybe the trouble with English pubs is that they take the wives to them. Do you think that's right?

Welshman 1 That may be a big disadvantage. Great disadvantage.

Studs Terkel I have a bit about this, this is a question of the wife, of the woman. We think of Wales singers, they're primarily male singing groups, the Welsh singing groups, aren't they?

Welshman 1 No, I think as Phil says, this is a matter of fact that the women are kept home and men go out. I think this is a fact, don't think so? It's an accepted fact. You get married, you have children, the wife stays in, the man goes out, I think it's as simple as that.

Studs Terkel Is this still the case in Wales, that the woman is still more or less does not go out, in England I assume the

Welshman 2 Yes, I think it's still true even of the younger women, because--and their mothers stayed in and their fathers went out. And now they do same thing with their heritage, didn't they? You know--

Studs Terkel I'm curious, hasn't the, what we call the youth revolution, hit Wales? You know, in a sense.

Welshman 1 Oh, yeah.

Welshman 2 The women aren't cold, don't get out of it. They not still knit old shawls, you know, drag my feet across the road like, they with it, they've got their miniskirts, and they've got their, you know, Cardiff is just as swinging as London, I should imagine, if not more swinging, but--

Welshman 1 Come off it.

Welshman 2 It is. I don't know. I honestly believe that, Phil.

Studs Terkel Our schoolteacher friend said the women know their place. Is that what you said?

Welshman 2 I think so.

Englishman I actually live in England, you see, and I can see the difference. I live in a place called Bristol, which is in the West of England, and I live on an estate where everyone is paying off his or her mortgage. And no one can afford to come out and I think they're going to have a two hours' wrangle with their wives to get them out. And by which time the pubs are closed. Whereas in Wales, they just say, "Well, I'm going out." Houses are cheaper in Wales, and so they haven't got so many debts.

Welshman 1 Houses are cheaper, so the rate of pay is so much lower as well. I think it cancels out itself. I don't think you're any much better off living in Wales because your houses are cheaper. Of course, living is just as high in Wales as in England comparatively so as compared to wages and prices.

Studs Terkel You think, though, the Welsh people have more of a capacity, you think, an outward capacity for enjoying

Welshman 1 Oh, they want to enjoy themselves. I don't think the English do.

Englishman No, they do.

Welshman 1 No, but they rather staid, aren't they, Phil? I like them.

Studs Terkel I'm talking to my friend David. You are a very genial. By the way, you work as a craftsman, you're a tool

Welshman 1 Oh, yes, aye.

Studs Terkel And, yet, this involves your hands, I see, you're a schoolteacher, and yet you have a manner of speech, this is the point I'm coming to, there's sort of an eloquence to your speech, see, that might not be--may I ask this question? Have you had much schooling? No.

Welshman 1 Yeah. Well, I served an apprenticeship, you see. You know, we're not actually, I think the world has got the wrong conception of Wales. No, no, I honestly, I believe this, that the people think that Wales, that we're still living in caves, and the sheep are running the roads. Well, they do, occasionally, but--

Studs Terkel No, what I meant is, you're a man who works with your hands, you're a craftsman, therefore the old stereotype is that he has not much academic things, I was commenting upon the eloquence of your speech. I was commenting upon your natural articulateness.

Welshman 1 I thought I sounded rather drunk, myself, I [unintelligible].

Studs Terkel No, no, no, no. As a matter of fact that particular stimulant you have would make for more eloquence, wouldn't it? Isn't this what we're talking about? [Unintelligible] from speech.

Welshman 1 I think I slur. I may be talking, I talk more after I'd been drinking, but I don't think I talk better. I think I could talk better.

Englishman I don't think we have a very extensive vocabulary but the words that we do have, we use a lot, don't we, over

Welshman 1 With vervor.

Welshman 2 Fervor, not vervor.

Studs Terkel Hasn't it always been, hasn't it been a spirit of Welsh nationalism, has this been revived, or has it lessened, or what is it, has there been an attempt to recreate--

Welshman 1 Oh, I think it is getting stronger. I definitely think so. My daughter has to go to Welsh school now. I have to go to night school to learn Welsh, as a matter of fact.

Studs Terkel Oh, so is this a recent development? Welsh being taught in schools?

Englishman It always has been taught in schools. It's been compulsory in the schools, but the trouble is the majority of teachers can't teach it. And they've been compelled to teach it and they haven't had much interest in it. And it--sorry. It timetabled, on timetables so if the Inspector of Schools comes in. The Inspector sees that Welsh is on the timetable but as far as the teachers are concerned, it's probably just not taught properly.

Welshman 1 My daughter goes to a Welsh school, a primary Welsh school. She'd be going there just last

Studs Terkel I guess what I'm really asking is, has there been a, not that there has been a lack of it, but there's been a rekindling of Welsh pride? Is that it? Sort of?

Welshman 1 Welsh language--

Studs Terkel I'm thinking of Welsh

Welshman 1 The Welsh pride? Oh, Welsh and also they pride them--

Englishman I don't think that's completely true. The

Welshman 1 fact Phil--

Englishman The truth is this, isn't this the truth. The fact is that the people all over the country are against the Labor government. Now in Wales, they would never vote Conservative. That's the last thing they do. The alternative to the Conservatives are the Welsh nationalist candidates of the election. So they vote nationalists as an opposition not simply because they are Welsh, ipso facto.

Welshman 1 What do we call it? Protest vote. Yeah, yeah.

Studs Terkel What would the Welsh people such as you think of what I've heard, this phrase, "buy British," in short having people work extra half-hours without pay, you know, and it's been the name of--

Welshman 1 Well, I can speak for where I work myself, and no one would entertain it. We wouldn't entertain at all. They just wouldn't. This is a--

Studs Terkel Go ahead, you can say it. It strikes you as what?

Welshman 1 Mr. Wilson isn't going to be--

Studs Terkel It strikes you as what, as doing this extra half-hour without pay.

Welshman 1 Myself, I reckon the working people of this country, the working classes of this country, are doing their utmost. It's not that--I don't even think it's the government. I honestly believe that it's--you know, you can brand me as communist here, I know. But it's the, I reckon it's the management and the business people of this company that are doing the most harm. Not the working people. They talk about strikes. They say, "Oh yes, you've lost so many working days this year and all," I said, "We lost more time in two days of snow than all the strikes have cost." [Minor? Marna?] was at work this year or last year, was it? And all the strikes of--

Studs Terkel We should point out that London--

Englishman And what strikes me as funny is the fact that on the day that Howard Wilson announced his cuts in Parliament, the "Financial Times" index, which indicates the prices of shares, went up 19 points, and which is more than has ever gone up in any other day in the whole history of the "Financial Times" index. Yes.

Studs Terkel You don't read the "Financial Times"?

Welshman 1 What is it?

Studs Terkel You don't subscribe to the "Financial Times"?

Welshman 1 It's a load of garbage. I reckon "The Financial Times" and the English go together, don't they? Or at least they are put together. Let's just take a for instance. Do you take the "Financial Times"?

Studs Terkel He's talking now to the man selling us, the concessionaire is talking

Concessionaire

Welshman 1 We're having a beer and a Coke and a couple of genial young Welshmen here drinking some beer and talking to one of the men selling the beer. How come you're not going into the second half? Wales is trailing eight three, what, were you coming here from South Wales, you say. That's right. Yes. But, as far as I'm concerned, the rugby's only incidental, I came up here for the trip really, and we couldn't get in. Well-- We got in. But we didn't see much. How come? Well, the ball went up in the air twice and that's what we saw. Where were you when, on the terraces? Yeah, underneath the, what standard would that be? The south stand. The south stand. That's all you saw, the ball up twice and that was all. That's all I saw, because I'm only four foot six tall, and therefore the person in front of me was seven foot eight, and so I couldn't see anything except the top of the goalpost. With the red and white scarf of course, attached to The red of the scarf, of course, being the symbol of the Welsh. Well, tell me, you came for the trip, was the trip an enjoyable one? So far. Yes. It was what? This is only part of it. This is only part of it. What are you going to do this evening? This evening? Get drunk? We'll sing. We'll sing some more songs. I like the fluidity, the musicality of your language. Were you South Wales, where? Rhondda Valley? Rhondda Valley, that's right. Where the coal comes from. Or used to come from. Used to come Why do you say "used to"? Well, all the mines are closed down there now. Is there a great deal of unemployment? Yes. I think it's ten percent, isn't it? It is pretty high as compared to the rest of the country then. You work as colliers? Oh, no. No. What do you? Schoolteacher, of all things. A toolmaker. And you're a toolmaker. But earlier we're talking about Welsh and rugby and British and rugby. Wales everybody, it's a working man as well as, in among the English it's almost sort of middle-class, Yes. Well, so the English is middle-class and upper-class, but to the Welsh it's a working-class sport. I hear them cheering, I think they must have scored again. You think? Incidentally, I notice even the crowd, even though the British are leading eight to three, the fervor seems to be Welsh rather than English. Isn't that so? I would think so, yes. The fervor. As far as the crowd are concerned, but as far as the team, I don't know. England seems to be doing much better. The little bit I saw. I'm talking now about the attitude of Oh, the attitude, yeah. The fans. Oh, the fans, yeah. There's a difference, isn't it? Other than English Italy? So, tell me, the town you come from-- In some ways, the English don't know how to enjoy themselves, do they? No, they'd rather stay, didn't they? They don't know how to let themselves go, you know. Tell me a little about this, talk a Well, they're not, they've got so many barriers, haven't they? There's all the pubs you go in, in London, and they say, "no singing allowed," all this. Well, this is absolute rubbish, man, this isn't 20th century whatever it is. This is back in the dark age, isn't it? You take your license off you when you've got to sit down and just sip beer from dawn 'til dusk. Well, you've got to drink beer. Well, what for? You go out for a kick, don't you? [Unintelligible] You don't just go down there and sip a drink with your finger in the air. You just go out and drink. And you go out and drink to enjoy yourself, to sing. And, where I don't know if they sing, I can't say sing, because beer and singing goes together as far as I'm concerned. But as far as the English lot, it's not so much you just drink for the sake of drink if you're English, didn't you? No, you're English, would you explain this to me? I don't understand. I can't explain it to you, but I think you're quite right. I think that English do drink much more seriously and quietly-- Yeah! And they do it when they're alone much more. Whereas the Welsh, I suppose you drink together. It's a sort of a-- Also, I have the impression that the wives in England don't let their husbands out so much, whereas in Wales it's accepted that the husband can go out for a drink and the wife stays home. I think so. Maybe the trouble with English pubs is that they take the wives to them. Do you think that's right? That may be a big disadvantage. Great disadvantage. I have a bit about this, this is a question of the wife, of the woman. We think of Wales singers, they're primarily male singing groups, the Welsh singing groups, aren't they? No, I think as Phil says, this is a matter of fact that the women are kept home and men go out. I think this is a fact, don't think so? It's an accepted fact. You get married, you have children, the wife stays in, the man goes out, I think it's as simple as that. Is this still the case in Wales, that the woman is still more or less does not go out, in England I assume the change-- Yes, I think it's still true even of the younger women, because--and their mothers stayed in and their fathers went out. And now they do same thing with their heritage, didn't they? You know-- I'm curious, hasn't the, what we call the youth revolution, hit Wales? You know, in a sense. Oh, yeah. The women aren't cold, don't get out of it. They not still knit old shawls, you know, drag my feet across the road like, they with it, they've got their miniskirts, and they've got their, you know, Cardiff is just as swinging as London, I should imagine, if not more swinging, but-- Come off it. It is. I don't know. I honestly believe that, Phil. Our schoolteacher friend said the women know their place. Is that what you said? I think so. I actually live in England, you see, and I can see the difference. I live in a place called Bristol, which is in the West of England, and I live on an estate where everyone is paying off his or her mortgage. And no one can afford to come out and I think they're going to have a two hours' wrangle with their wives to get them out. And by which time the pubs are closed. Whereas in Wales, they just say, "Well, I'm going out." Houses are cheaper in Wales, and so they haven't got so many debts. Houses are cheaper, so the rate of pay is so much lower as well. I think it cancels out itself. I don't think you're any much better off living in Wales because your houses are cheaper. Of course, living is just as high in Wales as in England comparatively so as compared to wages and prices. You think, though, the Welsh people have more of a capacity, you think, an outward capacity for enjoying life. Oh, they want to enjoy themselves. I don't think the English do. I'm No, they do. No, but they rather staid, aren't they, Phil? I like them. I'm talking to my friend David. You are a very genial. By the way, you work as a craftsman, you're a tool and Oh, yes, aye. And, yet, this involves your hands, I see, you're a schoolteacher, and yet you have a manner of speech, this is the point I'm coming to, there's sort of an eloquence to your speech, see, that might not be--may I ask this question? Have you had much schooling? No. Yeah. Well, I served an apprenticeship, you see. You know, we're not actually, I think the world has got the wrong conception of Wales. No, no, I honestly, I believe this, that the people think that Wales, that we're still living in caves, and the sheep are running the roads. Well, they do, occasionally, but-- No, what I meant is, you're a man who works with your hands, you're a craftsman, therefore the old stereotype is that he has not much academic things, I was commenting upon the eloquence of your speech. I was commenting upon your natural articulateness. I thought I sounded rather drunk, myself, I [unintelligible]. No, no, no, no. As a matter of fact that particular stimulant you have would make for more eloquence, wouldn't it? Isn't this what we're talking about? [Unintelligible] from speech. I think I slur. I may be talking, I talk more after I'd been drinking, but I don't think I talk better. I think I could talk better. I don't think we have a very extensive vocabulary but the words that we do have, we use a lot, don't we, over and With vervor. Fervor, not vervor. Hasn't it always been, hasn't it been a spirit of Welsh nationalism, has this been revived, or has it lessened, or what is it, has there been an attempt to recreate-- Oh, I think it is getting stronger. I definitely think so. My daughter has to go to Welsh school now. I have to go to night school to learn Welsh, as a matter of fact. Oh, so is this a recent development? Welsh being taught in schools? It always has been taught in schools. It's been compulsory in the schools, but the trouble is the majority of teachers can't teach it. And they've been compelled to teach it and they haven't had much interest in it. And it--sorry. It timetabled, on timetables so if the Inspector of Schools comes in. The Inspector sees that Welsh is on the timetable but as far as the teachers are concerned, it's probably just not taught properly. My daughter goes to a Welsh school, a primary Welsh school. She'd be going there just last August. I guess what I'm really asking is, has there been a, not that there has been a lack of it, but there's been a rekindling of Welsh pride? Is that it? Sort of? Welsh language-- I'm thinking of Welsh pride. The Welsh pride? Oh, Welsh and also they pride them-- I don't think that's completely true. The fact Phil-- The truth is this, isn't this the truth. The fact is that the people all over the country are against the Labor government. Now in Wales, they would never vote Conservative. That's the last thing they do. The alternative to the Conservatives are the Welsh nationalist candidates of the election. So they vote nationalists as an opposition not simply because they are Welsh, ipso facto. What do we call it? Protest vote. Yeah, yeah. What would the Welsh people such as you think of what I've heard, this phrase, "buy British," in short having people work extra half-hours without pay, you know, and it's been the name of-- Well, I can speak for where I work myself, and no one would entertain it. We wouldn't entertain at all. They just wouldn't. This is a-- Go ahead, you can say it. It strikes you as what? Mr. Wilson isn't going to be-- It strikes you as what, as doing this extra half-hour without pay. Myself, I reckon the working people of this country, the working classes of this country, are doing their utmost. It's not that--I don't even think it's the government. I honestly believe that it's--you know, you can brand me as communist here, I know. But it's the, I reckon it's the management and the business people of this company that are doing the most harm. Not the working people. They talk about strikes. They say, "Oh yes, you've lost so many working days this year and all," I said, "We lost more time in two days of snow than all the strikes have cost." [Minor? Marna?] was at work this year or last year, was it? And all the strikes of-- We should point out that London-- And what strikes me as funny is the fact that on the day that Howard Wilson announced his cuts in Parliament, the "Financial Times" index, which indicates the prices of shares, went up 19 points, and which is more than has ever gone up in any other day in the whole history of the "Financial Times" index. Yes. You don't read the "Financial Times"? What is it? You don't subscribe to the "Financial Times"? It's a load of garbage. I reckon "The Financial Times" and the English go together, don't they? Or at least they are put together. Let's just take a for instance. Do you take the "Financial Times"? He's talking now to the man selling us, the concessionaire is talking about-- No, Of [Welsh].

Concessionaire Oh, I buy "The Daily Mirror"

Studs Terkel at "The Mirror" is a tabloid paper, "The Express" is a more popular paper.

Concessionaire I'll say well, "The Daily Mirror" at times, but it's not my kettle of fish.

Studs Terkel Do you believe what our Welsh friend said about the British not being able to enjoy life?

Welshman 1 The English, the English, not

Studs Terkel I'm sorry, I

Concessionaire Ah, yes, you've got something there, haven't you? Well, I don't know, I think 50 percent is way out, I mean, if he comes round at Christmastime and things like that, he'd probably enjoy it all the more. They'd think it was great fun. If you come into our companies at Christmas, times like that, we really go to town if we have the money and can do it.

Welshman 1 But

Concessionaire

Welshman 1 Of You're from [Dunderlin?]

Concessionaire No, I come from Staffordshire, Trent. What isn't? It's the center of England. It's the center of England.

Welshman 1 But I don't--you haven't got the spontaneity, you can't enjoy yourself just like that. You can't just sort of "All of us'll have a good night," have a good night out.

Concessionaire Oh, but we can. You haven't been in our

Welshman 1 Oh, we have.

Concessionaire I'll just give you an instance, here you see, I have a nice car, a [Besecter?], but I wouldn't take it out at Christmas. All for why? Because I wanted to enjoy meself, and I did. I was stupid drunk, absolutely.

Welshman 1 I think you enjoy--no, I like you. You've got to be so careful. Oh, I am [unintelligible].

Concessionaire You people, too, because I'll walk up to him and say, Whose coat is this jacket, man?" "Whose coat is this jacket, man?" You'll get another fellow coming out, "What time is it by your watch and chain, man?" Yes, it's all jocular, it is to me. No, I met a lot of Taffys in the Army, I was in the sergeants' mess with three Taffys.

Studs Terkel Did you say "Taffys," is Taffy a slang word for Welsh? Is that it?

Concessionaire Oh, it's not slang. I wouldn't say slang. I'll tell you something.

Welshman 1 Not slang, not slang, not slang, not slang!

Studs Terkel No, you mean, it's not a derogatory word.

Concessionaire No, no, no. I'll put you further in the picture, I'll go down to Marshfield, Cardiff, Swansea, and they call me "Taff" down there. So how do you make that out? How does that come about? They call me "Taff."

Welshman 1 Well, there's so many Welsh people in the Mid--

Concessionaire We've

Welshman 1 Lands, doesn't he? After all, Coventry is a little ways beyond England, would they call it that? Just like [unintelligible]?

Studs Terkel Could our friend pass for a Welshman?

Welshman 1 Oh, no, no,

Studs Terkel No, he wouldn't.

Welshman 1 He's got the joviality of a, he would, he could enjoy himself, he looks the type. Let's see if I could find another bloke. A bloke, a fellow.

Studs Terkel All right. Okay.

Welshman 1 He couldn't enjoy himself. 'Cause Paul, I think if

Studs Terkel No, it's David.

Welshman 1 David. He could enjoy himself.

Studs Terkel Yes. But the other, who could not, he might not want to talk with us, that's the whole

Welshman 1 Oh no, I wouldn't say they wouldn't want to talk.

Studs Terkel But that's interesting.

Welshman 1 They talk. England, English talk.

Concessionaire No, boast as Burton on set, the home of beer. Started years and years ago by the old monks, and it's grew and grew with it, and we do sell the best beer in the world. In

Studs Terkel Give 'em another round. Could we have another round of beer?

Barman Yes, certainly.

Concessionaire Girls, would you see to these chappies for a drink? And it's so great now that we're exporting it in a big way now.

Studs Terkel No, no, now, I'm going to cut that out. Worthington? It's not known in America. We should explain to Americans, Worthington is a British beer. This is Chicago, I'm from Chicago.

Welshman 1 Are you Walter Cronkite?

Studs Terkel Oh, you heard of him, have you?

Welshman 1 Yes.

Studs Terkel No, no, I live in Chicago. This is for the sounds--

Welshman 1 Are you Ed Murrow?

Studs Terkel Oh, I'd better not be. He was a good man. He was a very good man.

Welshman 1 Ben Johnson!

Studs Terkel Oh, I'd rather not be. Let's come--I'd rather be me than--

Welshman 1 Could we question you?

Studs Terkel You may. I want to get some more, I want to get some more of, I want to get the sounds. I love--by the way, the Welsh sounds I'm crazy about. I am. The Welsh language, this matter--perhaps the only other people--I think of the Irish as talkers, but the Welsh probably can out-talk the Irish possibly.

Welshman 1 Do you know what Evelyn Waugh said about the Irish and the Welsh? Evelyn Waugh in his book "Decline and Fall" said to his, he didn't say it himself, character said to his friend, "I'll never get involved in a Welsh argument. It doesn't end in blows like an Irish one, but it goes on forever."

Studs Terkel But there's a point that our two Welsh friends raised early about the enjoyment of life. You obviously do enjoy life, but he's talking about customs in pubs, and there's a great deal of singing, singing in Welsh pubs, and my Welsh friend is pointing out there's very little of it in England.

Concessionaire Well, that is a fact. But there are pubs that you can sing in. Because [unintelligible] our friends' argument. If you've got a singing license.

Welshman 1 Why do you've got to have a license? Singing, to me, is enjoyment. Why do you got to have a license to enjoy yourselves? Of course I'm biased. I enjoy singing. Some people I know like to go to a pub and just drink. But I--

Concessionaire I stopped for a couple three minutes when we all fellas sang, "Wales, Wales," I love that even at the fights, rugby, football. I'm right there with them. I love it, I do, yes.

Welshman 1 Four years ago they [unintelligible].

Concessionaire No,

Welshman 1 The band? Don't you remember?

Studs Terkel What, who didn't sing it or play it? Four years ago?

Welshman 1 The band didn't play

Studs Terkel

Welshman 1 it, Well, Oh, they didn't banned it. They didn't ban it. The band didn't play, they said it was too cold. Too cold! It might have been too cold for the English, but the Welsh party was still there to sing.

Englishman Then what?

Welshman 1 Well, they didn't sing the national anthem, "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau".

Englishman When?

Welshman 1 Year. At [Tuckenham?].

Englishman They did?

Welshman 1 They didn't. Six years ago. Was it four or six years ago? Six years

Studs Terkel But the national anthem is called what? What's the national anthem called?

Welshman 1 "Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". "My Old Land of My Fathers".

Studs Terkel I heard of that. I don't mean to be--so I could just--could you give me one refrain, a phrase, I did hear it, I love the Welsh melody.

Welshman 1 Do you want

Studs Terkel Could you? You know, quietly? Could you? I just heard it there, but I didn't, I'm not sure I got it because of the crowd, the hugeness and the machine. It's

Unidentified Man Are you Welsh?

Studs Terkel You can do it softly.

Unidentified Man Are you what?

Concessionaire Your

Studs Terkel Oh, sorry. You can sing it softly.

Welshman 1 Shall we sing it?

Welshman 2 Yeah. I'll probably put it away but it's all right.

Welshman 1 No. Okay, if we fail, the [unintelligible].

Welshman 1 [Welsh

Studs Terkel Thank you, no, it's moving.

Welshman 1 It is better. Ain't it, Phil? I prefer the Irish one, myself.

Studs Terkel I was thinking, the ladies are here. You know, there's something that the Welsh were saying about a lot of Welsh men can go out at night at pubs without too much trouble, wives being at home. Would there be difficulty in England in this case as far as the husband going out?

Concessionaire Oh, no, no, if I want to go out, I go out when and where I like. I go out playing crib, darts, and naturally that entails drinking beer. We have a good old time, of course we do. We aren't as stuffy as you think we are, get that out

Welshman 1 I think you Midlanders are a lot better than the Southerners, actually. Oh, look.

Studs Terkel All of you

Concessionaire I don't know, there's the Cockneys, you couldn't go in a better place and you'll have a great time, though I'd get in amongst them, and have a go with them, with the Cockneys, one, these are [mother?] brown, and all--

Englishman How are you going to enjoy yourself if you think the Southerners are such a bad lot?

Welshman 1 No, no, no, be fair, I don't think they're a bad lot. They not a bad lot. They just a bit shy, aren't they?

Englishman How are you going to enjoy yourself?

Welshman 1 Well, that's a bloody problem, ain't it?

Studs Terkel You're not Cockney, are you?

Concessionaire No, but my wife is.

Studs Terkel Your

Concessionaire Yes, yes. I find no bars there at all, there's no bars. I was never even had to change my religion at all. My wife's family have relations in America, the Rogans, they're Catholics and they've been over here and given our people a great time up in Sunderland, in Newcastle, and we're hoping, someday we may get back to see those. Mind, they're old ladies now, but the family's still there, and they're great Catholics, and as I say, they've been over, had great times and then I've got a friend next door, she, her mother married a G.I. and the daughter's been and flown over and stopped--

Studs Terkel J.I.

Concessionaire G.I.

Studs Terkel Oh, G.I.

Concessionaire A G.I., yes, she was a G.I. bride and her daughter's been over here and we've had a great time over here, we've been out, and she wanted to see this country, we've been out in my car, we've been all around.

Studs Terkel You know, it's interesting, you spoke of Cockney and Catholic. The Welsh are Presbyterians? You know, what would be the Welsh prime religion in Wales?

Welshman 1 Well, when I was in the Welsh force, I said, "I'm Welsh Baptist," they said, "Oh, we haven't got any Welsh Baptists here, you can go in the [cookers?] for today."

Studs Terkel Now, what is a chapel Welshman? So, when you go to chapel, what would the denomination be?

Welshman 1 Oh, well,

Studs Terkel Is it Methodist?

Welshman 1 Oh, there's Methodist, Welsh Baptist--

Studs Terkel There isn't a one predominant

Welshman 1 Oh, no, no, no. I wouldn't say so, no.

Concessionaire I don't think, it's quite mixed in Wales, isn't it? Yes, it's quite mixed. I tell you what there is in Wales a lot of, Pentecostal churches. There is, yes, there is, Pentecostal churches out there.

Studs Terkel When speaking about Pentecostal churches, you mean there's a great deal of fervor in the church.

Concessionaire Oh, yes.

Studs Terkel We think of Pentecostal churches, we think of breeding an old-time preacher preaching a real--

Welshman 2 Don't mislead the gentleman.

Studs Terkel No?

Welshman 2 The churches in Wales are as empty as anywhere.

Welshman 1 I didn't say they were full, I said I was just a Welsh Baptist. I used to go to Sunday school.

Welshman 2 Oh, we all went to Sunday school. We all do that. After we get to the age of consent.

Concessionaire Was that because you was made to go as children?

Welshman 1 I enjoyed going.

Concessionaire You didn't have a great choice there, then, did you? No, well, it doesn't [unintelligible] in many ways, really.

Welshman 2 Oh, don't say [a bad berry?].

Welshman 1 Oh, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

Concessionaire You still go, though?

Welshman 1 No, no.

Studs Terkel There's something our schoolteacher friend was saying about the Welsh churches being as empty as others. That's interesting. You feel there has been a decline, then--

Englishman Oh, yes.

Studs Terkel As far as belief in religion itself.

Englishman Well, I think England is now completely, well, virtually, an atheistic country. The Archbishop of Canterbury and his people are now the minority. In fact, the establishment is now atheistic, I would say, most people.

Studs Terkel To what would you ascribe this, you think? How come?

Englishman Well, people realize that religion is a confidence trick.

Welshman 1 Oh, no. I can't agree with that. I can't agree with that, Phil. You don't believe it yourself, do you?

Englishman Well, that's how it got established in the first place. Yes, certainly.

Welshman 1 No one might believe him. I believe him.

Concessionaire The people in the church have said you've still got your dedicated people who go to church, believe in it, and work by it. They do.

Studs Terkel Do you go to church?

Concessionaire Yes, I do. Yes. Yes.

Studs Terkel So it's interesting. Here we have a one man who says an atheist, one who has a genial approach to religion, but you don't go to church.

Welshman 1 No.

Studs Terkel And we have one who does.

Concessionaire I go when and how I can, you see. My job doesn't afford it. You take a job like this, now tomorrow I should be traveling home, so obviously I can't go to church. Now, through the course of the summer months I do a lot of shows, air shows, golf tournaments, and things like that. Obviously I'm away at weekends, but when I can go, I do go, oh, I enjoy going to church, yes. I think everybody should go.

Studs Terkel You know what I like about this that I find very attractive inside the fans jam-packed, rough, tough, little enjoyment. But out here suddenly individuals talking rather than the crowd, which is rather interesting, we're talking about that. Any other comments, gentlemen?

Concessionaire Have you been inside that

Welshman 1 Oh, it's shocking.

Welshman 2 It's shocking!

Concessionaire I wish [they'd bring?] The prices down at the steam lines and the airlines so that we can get to America and have a go over there. We'd like to get over there, you know. Yes, we would. I would, anyhow, I would.

Welshman 1 One final thing: I think most of the Welsh people here would be glad if Wales loses, because then they'd enjoy themselves tonight criticizing the team, and saying who ought to have been in the team and criticizing the selectors who chose the people that are in it. They will. If we lose tonight, if we lose tonight--

Studs Terkel Is this true? This is a good point. The Welsh are good--obviously love to talk, they love to argue and sing. The matter of losing, then, will not be a great tragic blow.

Welshman 1 Oh, it wouldn't be to the spectators at all. They'd enjoy themselves just as well if they win or lose. But they'd be mad as hatters trying to pinch [unintelligible].

Englishman We'd prefer to lose, really, wouldn't we?

Welshman 1 No, no, I wouldn't. I've got to be honest.

Concessionaire If you're like this at the top of that table and study with a wooden spoon now, speak the truth, come on, Taffy.

Welshman 1 I'd like to beat England, oh yes, beat England, by all means, yes, but lose as well the same time.

Concessionaire Everybody comes here, they all want to beat England, of course they do. We tie [unintelligible].

Welshman 1 Well, why aren't you beating them? They didn't pick the right team. [Unintelligible] They don't pick the right team.

Englishman We got five other selectors, isn't it?

Studs Terkel You mentioned Marie Lloyd, you were talking about the great old music hall performer. You mentioned her a moment ago. You said Marie Lloyd.

Concessionaire Yes, yes.

Studs Terkel You remember her?

Concessionaire Yes. Yes.

Studs Terkel

Welshman 1 Is Yes. I can sing one of her songs, if you like.

Welshman 2 She said Marie Lloyd

Welshman 1 Who's Marie Lloyd?

Englishman Marie Lloyd--

Welshman 1

Englishman [Unintelligible]. Lwyd is a Welsh word meaning grey. Grey. And Mari Lwyd is the Grey Woman. But Lwyd became Lloyd and is now used as a surname.

Studs Terkel So

Englishman Mari Lwyd is a Welsh sort of ghost, but that's not the same as Marie Lloyd.

Studs Terkel No, we're talking about Marie Lloyd the great music hall performer whom our friend, our English friend is talking about.

Welshman 1 I thought [unintelligible]

Studs Terkel What did you like about Marie Lloyd?.

Concessionaire Well, her gaiety, everything, she was--I think she would say today she got into everything. Oh, yes.

Studs Terkel What do you think happened to the music hall? It's disappeared pretty much, hasn't it?

Concessionaire Oh, yes. It's a sorry, sorry day. I like to see the old music hall from Leeds now, the one, the old-time music hall, it's great. And we had Georgie Flock on the other night. Now he's reappeared in the [conch?] again, and there was one or two youngsters on and all, they were making the grade now on the boards on the stage, and it was a great show. And I plump for it every week, as I say when I'm at home. If I'm not out driving, you see, but it is, it's great.

Studs Terkel Why do you think the music hall died? Why do you think it did?

Concessionaire Well, you've got so much other entertainments coming, first you had the talkies, the pictures, one thing and another, now you've got television which is making everybody idle, I think, in this country. There's no two ways about that because even as kids we had to go out and make our own fun, but not today. Everything is put into their hands for them. Right--

Studs Terkel Before we leave, he's talking about how interesting about television, kids used to make their own fun, he said. Today it's more or less made for you.

Concessionaire Ready for them. Regards cash for kids where we used to have a penny or penny each off our mother and our father. Today my lad, if he goes across the road he wants a half a crown, he wants a half a crown to do one little errand, you see, and of course we're soft now, this goes back to the point over the war years now, you came home and you thought, well, I won't let my kids suffer like I did, and they didn't want, if we can't have the homes fit for ___ and us to live in, we're going to see the kids come, and what if we don't, we spoil them. Of course we spoil them, we toss money to them left, right, and center, and they can buy entertainment. Apart from the other that's already made, and they don't go out, they don't go out and try hard like we used to, we'd go into these gyms into the back of these bobs box and learn something, learn an art, and we would learn to play rugby. And we would dedicate it with football. But you don't see them now, they'd rather come here and sit and watch it.

Welshman 2 Educationalists are aware of this problem. And in fact, I suppose it'll get, and the problem will get worse rather than better because, I mean, as computers take over, I mean the ultimate would be that man doesn't have to do any work at all. Everything will be done by machines, but what will man do then? For 24 hours a day, he can't sleep all day long. So it's the problem of the educationalists to try to educate the kids, the children, into how to spend their spare time.

Studs Terkel But our friend, our good singing genial Welsh friend, you seem to disagree.

Welshman 1 I do. People tend to cry out on the younger generation. I don't know what myself for me. No, but I'm not. You know, they cry and moan that they have it too easy. But do they? I think I enjoyed myself more than what they are enjoying themselves now. So they've got to buy it. They've got to buy their enjoyment. But it's our fault. You can't condemn the younger generation.

Welshman 2 Oh, no, I don't condemn them. The younger generation has made great strides since 1960. Things have changed faster in this younger generation. They're far more aware of what's going on, and they're not cowed or brow-beaten at all. I find it easier to teach now, and they're more--what I say. They're more responsive.

Welshman 1 Some people say that I had to sell echoes to go to the pictures and all this, well, that's is wrong, isn't it? So you had to sell echoes, I didn't have to sell echoes, I was brought up in that area where they said, "Okay, go to the pictures." You know. Go skating, go dancing, go anywhere. But the kids aren't wrong, they're bloody great I reckon, great, real great, the kids are. The kids of today.

Concessionaire Because it doesn't matter where you go, there's good or bad in all communities, either old or young. Now, of course there is, isn't there? But as I say, we do spoil the children of today. There's no two ways about that. We do!

Welshman 1 I honestly believe you were spoiled just as much as, how shall I say it? You were spoiled just as much as conditions allowed, as what I was spoiled, and what I spoil my young daughter. I honestly--

Concessionaire Conditions comparing the two, you might have a point there, yes, under the conditions of those days and these days, of course, but I still maintain that the kids are a little spoiled.

Welshman 1 But every parent says that, I'm honestly convinced that every parent says this. I spoil my daughter more than she should be spoiled, I'm sure, you know. But it's not right to say, "They spoiled. They spoiled. They spoiled. No, they spoiled. Okay, I was spoiled, you were spoiled, your father was spoiled, your grandfather was spoiled, as conditions allowed. I honestly believe this, 'cause every parent strives to give their children more than what they had themselves.

Concessionaire It's a very debatable point, it's a very debatable point. Well, look, I'm sorry that I've got to leave.

Studs Terkel Yeah, I know, thank you. Now the crowd is now letting out, there's 60,000 people. The match is over, I take it England has won--

Welshman 1 Who won?

Studs Terkel I don't know, I'm assuming, they weren't really--but the crowd is letting out. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I'd like your company very much. You're genial, you're--so I'll keep talking, this is, the crowd has finally let out. So really, the match itself is of secondary importance. The joy of it coming here on the trip, basically that was it.

Welshman 1 The match was drawn late business. The match was drawn.

Studs Terkel Oh, drawn?

Welshman 1 Yes.

Studs Terkel You mean to say that Wales tied it up?

Welshman 1 That's the best possible result.

Studs Terkel Now, now I've got to ask you one last

Welshman 1 That's the best possible result. We didn't lose to

Studs Terkel I've got to ask

Welshman 1 And, yet, we can still criticize the team.

Studs Terkel That's what I mean. I want to ask you one question. Now that the match is drawn, what will the conversation be like on the train back?

Welshman 1 Oh, the choice of the team, without a doubt. The choice of--

Welshman 2 Undoubtedly they should all have been dropped. They should have put in someone else.

Welshman 1 Jared, King Jared should never have been there. He could have kicked six goals in the first half that I almost saw.

Studs Terkel So if anything, the fact that Welsh ended in a draw is even worse than a loss, because now there's double frustration.

Welshman 1 No, it's just right. Just, just right. Just right. We love frustration, and we thrive

Studs Terkel 'Cause there's still--oh, just right because you didn't lose to England.

Welshman 1 No.

Studs Terkel At the same time, you didn't win, so you have good cause to complain.

Welshman 1 Yes.

Studs Terkel Thank you very much.

Welshman 1 Thank you very much.

Studs Terkel What's the marvelous Welsh word for farewell or good luck? What's the word in Welsh?

Welshman 1

Studs Terkel We're having a beer and a Coke and a couple of genial young Welshmen here drinking some beer and talking to one of the men selling the beer. How come you're not going into the second half? Wales is trailing eight three, what, were you coming here from South Wales, you say. That's right. Yes. But, as far as I'm concerned, the rugby's only incidental, I came up here for the trip really, and we couldn't get in. Well-- We got in. But we didn't see much. How come? Well, the ball went up in the air twice and that's what we saw. Where were you when, on the terraces? Yeah, underneath the, what standard would that be? The south stand. The south stand. That's all you saw, the ball up twice and that was all. That's all I saw, because I'm only four foot six tall, and therefore the person in front of me was seven foot eight, and so I couldn't see anything except the top of the goalpost. With the red and white scarf of course, attached to The red of the scarf, of course, being the symbol of the Welsh. Well, tell me, you came for the trip, was the trip an enjoyable one? So far. Yes. It was what? This is only part of it. This is only part of it. What are you going to do this evening? This evening? Get drunk? We'll sing. We'll sing some more songs. I like the fluidity, the musicality of your language. Were you South Wales, where? Rhondda Valley? Rhondda Valley, that's right. Where the coal comes from. Or used to come from. Used to come Why do you say "used to"? Well, all the mines are closed down there now. Is there a great deal of unemployment? Yes. I think it's ten percent, isn't it? It is pretty high as compared to the rest of the country then. You work as colliers? Oh, no. No. What do you? Schoolteacher, of all things. A toolmaker. And you're a toolmaker. But earlier we're talking about Welsh and rugby and British and rugby. Wales everybody, it's a working man as well as, in among the English it's almost sort of middle-class, Yes. Well, so the English is middle-class and upper-class, but to the Welsh it's a working-class sport. I hear them cheering, I think they must have scored again. You think? Incidentally, I notice even the crowd, even though the British are leading eight to three, the fervor seems to be Welsh rather than English. Isn't that so? I would think so, yes. The fervor. As far as the crowd are concerned, but as far as the team, I don't know. England seems to be doing much better. The little bit I saw. I'm talking now about the attitude of Oh, the attitude, yeah. The fans. Oh, the fans, yeah. There's a difference, isn't it? Other than English Italy? So, tell me, the town you come from-- In some ways, the English don't know how to enjoy themselves, do they? No, they'd rather stay, didn't they? They don't know how to let themselves go, you know. Tell me a little about this, talk a Well, they're not, they've got so many barriers, haven't they? There's all the pubs you go in, in London, and they say, "no singing allowed," all this. Well, this is absolute rubbish, man, this isn't 20th century whatever it is. This is back in the dark age, isn't it? You take your license off you when you've got to sit down and just sip beer from dawn 'til dusk. Well, you've got to drink beer. Well, what for? You go out for a kick, don't you? [Unintelligible] You don't just go down there and sip a drink with your finger in the air. You just go out and drink. And you go out and drink to enjoy yourself, to sing. And, where I don't know if they sing, I can't say sing, because beer and singing goes together as far as I'm concerned. But as far as the English lot, it's not so much you just drink for the sake of drink if you're English, didn't you? No, you're English, would you explain this to me? I don't understand. I can't explain it to you, but I think you're quite right. I think that English do drink much more seriously and quietly-- Yeah! And they do it when they're alone much more. Whereas the Welsh, I suppose you drink together. It's a sort of a-- Also, I have the impression that the wives in England don't let their husbands out so much, whereas in Wales it's accepted that the husband can go out for a drink and the wife stays home. I think so. Maybe the trouble with English pubs is that they take the wives to them. Do you think that's right? That may be a big disadvantage. Great disadvantage. I have a bit about this, this is a question of the wife, of the woman. We think of Wales singers, they're primarily male singing groups, the Welsh singing groups, aren't they? No, I think as Phil says, this is a matter of fact that the women are kept home and men go out. I think this is a fact, don't think so? It's an accepted fact. You get married, you have children, the wife stays in, the man goes out, I think it's as simple as that. Is this still the case in Wales, that the woman is still more or less does not go out, in England I assume the change-- Yes, I think it's still true even of the younger women, because--and their mothers stayed in and their fathers went out. And now they do same thing with their heritage, didn't they? You know-- I'm curious, hasn't the, what we call the youth revolution, hit Wales? You know, in a sense. Oh, yeah. The women aren't cold, don't get out of it. They not still knit old shawls, you know, drag my feet across the road like, they with it, they've got their miniskirts, and they've got their, you know, Cardiff is just as swinging as London, I should imagine, if not more swinging, but-- Come off it. It is. I don't know. I honestly believe that, Phil. Our schoolteacher friend said the women know their place. Is that what you said? I think so. I actually live in England, you see, and I can see the difference. I live in a place called Bristol, which is in the West of England, and I live on an estate where everyone is paying off his or her mortgage. And no one can afford to come out and I think they're going to have a two hours' wrangle with their wives to get them out. And by which time the pubs are closed. Whereas in Wales, they just say, "Well, I'm going out." Houses are cheaper in Wales, and so they haven't got so many debts. Houses are cheaper, so the rate of pay is so much lower as well. I think it cancels out itself. I don't think you're any much better off living in Wales because your houses are cheaper. Of course, living is just as high in Wales as in England comparatively so as compared to wages and prices. You think, though, the Welsh people have more of a capacity, you think, an outward capacity for enjoying life. Oh, they want to enjoy themselves. I don't think the English do. I'm No, they do. No, but they rather staid, aren't they, Phil? I like them. I'm talking to my friend David. You are a very genial. By the way, you work as a craftsman, you're a tool and Oh, yes, aye. And, yet, this involves your hands, I see, you're a schoolteacher, and yet you have a manner of speech, this is the point I'm coming to, there's sort of an eloquence to your speech, see, that might not be--may I ask this question? Have you had much schooling? No. Yeah. Well, I served an apprenticeship, you see. You know, we're not actually, I think the world has got the wrong conception of Wales. No, no, I honestly, I believe this, that the people think that Wales, that we're still living in caves, and the sheep are running the roads. Well, they do, occasionally, but-- No, what I meant is, you're a man who works with your hands, you're a craftsman, therefore the old stereotype is that he has not much academic things, I was commenting upon the eloquence of your speech. I was commenting upon your natural articulateness. I thought I sounded rather drunk, myself, I [unintelligible]. No, no, no, no. As a matter of fact that particular stimulant you have would make for more eloquence, wouldn't it? Isn't this what we're talking about? [Unintelligible] from speech. I think I slur. I may be talking, I talk more after I'd been drinking, but I don't think I talk better. I think I could talk better. I don't think we have a very extensive vocabulary but the words that we do have, we use a lot, don't we, over and With vervor. Fervor, not vervor. Hasn't it always been, hasn't it been a spirit of Welsh nationalism, has this been revived, or has it lessened, or what is it, has there been an attempt to recreate-- Oh, I think it is getting stronger. I definitely think so. My daughter has to go to Welsh school now. I have to go to night school to learn Welsh, as a matter of fact. Oh, so is this a recent development? Welsh being taught in schools? It always has been taught in schools. It's been compulsory in the schools, but the trouble is the majority of teachers can't teach it. And they've been compelled to teach it and they haven't had much interest in it. And it--sorry. It timetabled, on timetables so if the Inspector of Schools comes in. The Inspector sees that Welsh is on the timetable but as far as the teachers are concerned, it's probably just not taught properly. My daughter goes to a Welsh school, a primary Welsh school. She'd be going there just last August. I guess what I'm really asking is, has there been a, not that there has been a lack of it, but there's been a rekindling of Welsh pride? Is that it? Sort of? Welsh language-- I'm thinking of Welsh pride. The Welsh pride? Oh, Welsh and also they pride them-- I don't think that's completely true. The fact Phil-- The truth is this, isn't this the truth. The fact is that the people all over the country are against the Labor government. Now in Wales, they would never vote Conservative. That's the last thing they do. The alternative to the Conservatives are the Welsh nationalist candidates of the election. So they vote nationalists as an opposition not simply because they are Welsh, ipso facto. What do we call it? Protest vote. Yeah, yeah. What would the Welsh people such as you think of what I've heard, this phrase, "buy British," in short having people work extra half-hours without pay, you know, and it's been the name of-- Well, I can speak for where I work myself, and no one would entertain it. We wouldn't entertain at all. They just wouldn't. This is a-- Go ahead, you can say it. It strikes you as what? Mr. Wilson isn't going to be-- It strikes you as what, as doing this extra half-hour without pay. Myself, I reckon the working people of this country, the working classes of this country, are doing their utmost. It's not that--I don't even think it's the government. I honestly believe that it's--you know, you can brand me as communist here, I know. But it's the, I reckon it's the management and the business people of this company that are doing the most harm. Not the working people. They talk about strikes. They say, "Oh yes, you've lost so many working days this year and all," I said, "We lost more time in two days of snow than all the strikes have cost." [Minor? Marna?] was at work this year or last year, was it? And all the strikes of-- We should point out that London-- And what strikes me as funny is the fact that on the day that Howard Wilson announced his cuts in Parliament, the "Financial Times" index, which indicates the prices of shares, went up 19 points, and which is more than has ever gone up in any other day in the whole history of the "Financial Times" index. Yes. You don't read the "Financial Times"? What is it? You don't subscribe to the "Financial Times"? It's a load of garbage. I reckon "The Financial Times" and the English go together, don't they? Or at least they are put together. Let's just take a for instance. Do you take the "Financial Times"? He's talking now to the man selling us, the concessionaire is talking about-- No, Of Oh, I buy "The Daily Mirror" at "The Mirror" is a tabloid paper, "The Express" is a more popular paper. I'll say well, "The Daily Mirror" at times, but it's not my kettle of fish. Do you believe what our Welsh friend said about the British not being able to enjoy life? That The English, the English, not British. I'm sorry, I meant Ah, yes, you've got something there, haven't you? Well, I don't know, I think 50 percent is way out, I mean, if he comes round at Christmastime and things like that, he'd probably enjoy it all the more. They'd think it was great fun. If you come into our companies at Christmas, times like that, we really go to town if we have the money and can do it. But Of You're from [Dunderlin?] No, I come from Staffordshire, Trent. What isn't? It's the center of England. It's the center of England. But I don't--you haven't got the spontaneity, you can't enjoy yourself just like that. You can't just sort of "All of us'll have a good night," have a good night out. Oh, but we can. You haven't been in our company Oh, we have. I'll just give you an instance, here you see, I have a nice car, a [Besecter?], but I wouldn't take it out at Christmas. All for why? Because I wanted to enjoy meself, and I did. I was stupid drunk, absolutely. I think you enjoy--no, I like you. You've got to be so careful. Oh, I am [unintelligible]. You people, too, because I'll walk up to him and say, Whose coat is this jacket, man?" "Whose coat is this jacket, man?" You'll get another fellow coming out, "What time is it by your watch and chain, man?" Yes, it's all jocular, it is to me. No, I met a lot of Taffys in the Army, I was in the sergeants' mess with three Taffys. Did you say "Taffys," is Taffy a slang word for Welsh? Is that it? Oh, it's not slang. I wouldn't say slang. I'll tell you something. Not slang, not slang, not slang, not slang! No, you mean, it's not a derogatory word. No, no, no. I'll put you further in the picture, I'll go down to Marshfield, Cardiff, Swansea, and they call me "Taff" down there. So how do you make that out? How does that come about? They call me "Taff." Well, there's so many Welsh people in the Mid-- We've Lands, doesn't he? After all, Coventry is a little ways beyond England, would they call it that? Just like [unintelligible]? Could our friend pass for a Welshman? Oh, no, no, no. No, he wouldn't. He's got the joviality of a, he would, he could enjoy himself, he looks the type. Let's see if I could find another bloke. A bloke, a fellow. All right. Okay. He couldn't enjoy himself. 'Cause Paul, I think if Paul No, it's David. David. He could enjoy himself. Yes. But the other, who could not, he might not want to talk with us, that's the whole point. Oh no, I wouldn't say they wouldn't want to talk. But that's interesting. They talk. England, English talk. No, boast as Burton on set, the home of beer. Started years and years ago by the old monks, and it's grew and grew with it, and we do sell the best beer in the world. In fact-- Give 'em another round. Could we have another round of beer? Yes, certainly. Girls, would you see to these chappies for a drink? And it's so great now that we're exporting it in a big way now. No, no, now, I'm going to cut that out. Worthington? It's not known in America. We should explain to Americans, Worthington is a British beer. This is Chicago, I'm from Chicago. Are you Walter Cronkite? Oh, you heard of him, have you? Yes. No, no, I live in Chicago. This is for the sounds-- Are you Ed Murrow? Oh, I'd better not be. He was a good man. He was a very good man. Ben Johnson! Oh, I'd rather not be. Let's come--I'd rather be me than-- Could we question you? You may. I want to get some more, I want to get some more of, I want to get the sounds. I love--by the way, the Welsh sounds I'm crazy about. I am. The Welsh language, this matter--perhaps the only other people--I think of the Irish as talkers, but the Welsh probably can out-talk the Irish possibly. Do you know what Evelyn Waugh said about the Irish and the Welsh? Evelyn Waugh in his book "Decline and Fall" said to his, he didn't say it himself, character said to his friend, "I'll never get involved in a Welsh argument. It doesn't end in blows like an Irish one, but it goes on forever." But there's a point that our two Welsh friends raised early about the enjoyment of life. You obviously do enjoy life, but he's talking about customs in pubs, and there's a great deal of singing, singing in Welsh pubs, and my Welsh friend is pointing out there's very little of it in England. Well, that is a fact. But there are pubs that you can sing in. Because [unintelligible] our friends' argument. If you've got a singing license. Why do you've got to have a license? Singing, to me, is enjoyment. Why do you got to have a license to enjoy yourselves? Of course I'm biased. I enjoy singing. Some people I know like to go to a pub and just drink. But I-- I stopped for a couple three minutes when we all fellas sang, "Wales, Wales," I love that even at the fights, rugby, football. I'm right there with them. I love it, I do, yes. Four years ago they [unintelligible]. No, The band? Don't you remember? What, who didn't sing it or play it? Four years ago? The band didn't play it, Well, Oh, they didn't banned it. They didn't ban it. The band didn't play, they said it was too cold. Too cold! It might have been too cold for the English, but the Welsh party was still there to sing. Then what? Well, they didn't sing the national anthem, "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". When? Year. At [Tuckenham?]. They did? They didn't. Six years ago. Was it four or six years ago? Six years ago. But the national anthem is called what? What's the national anthem called? "Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". "My Old Land of My Fathers". I heard of that. I don't mean to be--so I could just--could you give me one refrain, a phrase, I did hear it, I love the Welsh melody. Do you want us Could you? You know, quietly? Could you? I just heard it there, but I didn't, I'm not sure I got it because of the crowd, the hugeness and the machine. It's okay. Are you Welsh? You can do it softly. Are you what? Your Oh, sorry. You can sing it softly. Shall we sing it? Yeah. I'll probably put it away but it's all right. No. Okay, if we fail, the [unintelligible]. [Welsh Thank you, no, it's moving. It is better. Ain't it, Phil? I prefer the Irish one, myself. I was thinking, the ladies are here. You know, there's something that the Welsh were saying about a lot of Welsh men can go out at night at pubs without too much trouble, wives being at home. Would there be difficulty in England in this case as far as the husband going out? Oh, no, no, if I want to go out, I go out when and where I like. I go out playing crib, darts, and naturally that entails drinking beer. We have a good old time, of course we do. We aren't as stuffy as you think we are, get that out I think you Midlanders are a lot better than the Southerners, actually. Oh, look. All of you are I don't know, there's the Cockneys, you couldn't go in a better place and you'll have a great time, though I'd get in amongst them, and have a go with them, with the Cockneys, one, these are [mother?] brown, and all-- How are you going to enjoy yourself if you think the Southerners are such a bad lot? No, no, no, be fair, I don't think they're a bad lot. They not a bad lot. They just a bit shy, aren't they? How are you going to enjoy yourself? Well, that's a bloody problem, ain't it? You're not Cockney, are you? No, but my wife is. Your Yes, yes. I find no bars there at all, there's no bars. I was never even had to change my religion at all. My wife's family have relations in America, the Rogans, they're Catholics and they've been over here and given our people a great time up in Sunderland, in Newcastle, and we're hoping, someday we may get back to see those. Mind, they're old ladies now, but the family's still there, and they're great Catholics, and as I say, they've been over, had great times and then I've got a friend next door, she, her mother married a G.I. and the daughter's been and flown over and stopped-- J.I. A G.I. Oh, G.I. A G.I., yes, she was a G.I. bride and her daughter's been over here and we've had a great time over here, we've been out, and she wanted to see this country, we've been out in my car, we've been all around. You know, it's interesting, you spoke of Cockney and Catholic. The Welsh are Presbyterians? You know, what would be the Welsh prime religion in Wales? Well, when I was in the Welsh force, I said, "I'm Welsh Baptist," they said, "Oh, we haven't got any Welsh Baptists here, you can go in the [cookers?] for today." Now, what is a chapel Welshman? So, when you go to chapel, what would the denomination be? Oh, well, it-- Is it Methodist? Oh, there's Methodist, Welsh Baptist-- There isn't a one predominant denomination-- Oh, no, no, no. I wouldn't say so, no. I don't think, it's quite mixed in Wales, isn't it? Yes, it's quite mixed. I tell you what there is in Wales a lot of, Pentecostal churches. There is, yes, there is, Pentecostal churches out there. When speaking about Pentecostal churches, you mean there's a great deal of fervor in the church. Oh, yes. We think of Pentecostal churches, we think of breeding an old-time preacher preaching a real-- Don't mislead the gentleman. No? The churches in Wales are as empty as anywhere. I didn't say they were full, I said I was just a Welsh Baptist. I used to go to Sunday school. Oh, we all went to Sunday school. We all do that. After we get to the age of consent. Was that because you was made to go as children? I enjoyed going. You didn't have a great choice there, then, did you? No, well, it doesn't [unintelligible] in many ways, really. Oh, don't say [a bad berry?]. Oh, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. You still go, though? No, no. There's something our schoolteacher friend was saying about the Welsh churches being as empty as others. That's interesting. You feel there has been a decline, then-- Oh, yes. As far as belief in religion itself. Well, I think England is now completely, well, virtually, an atheistic country. The Archbishop of Canterbury and his people are now the minority. In fact, the establishment is now atheistic, I would say, most people. To what would you ascribe this, you think? How come? Well, people realize that religion is a confidence trick. Oh, no. I can't agree with that. I can't agree with that, Phil. You don't believe it yourself, do you? Well, that's how it got established in the first place. Yes, certainly. No one might believe him. I believe him. The people in the church have said you've still got your dedicated people who go to church, believe in it, and work by it. They do. Do you go to church? Yes, I do. Yes. Yes. So it's interesting. Here we have a one man who says an atheist, one who has a genial approach to religion, but you don't go to church. No. And we have one who does. I go when and how I can, you see. My job doesn't afford it. You take a job like this, now tomorrow I should be traveling home, so obviously I can't go to church. Now, through the course of the summer months I do a lot of shows, air shows, golf tournaments, and things like that. Obviously I'm away at weekends, but when I can go, I do go, oh, I enjoy going to church, yes. I think everybody should go. You know what I like about this that I find very attractive inside the fans jam-packed, rough, tough, little enjoyment. But out here suddenly individuals talking rather than the crowd, which is rather interesting, we're talking about that. Any other comments, gentlemen? Have you been inside that crowd? Oh, it's shocking. It's shocking! I wish [they'd bring?] The prices down at the steam lines and the airlines so that we can get to America and have a go over there. We'd like to get over there, you know. Yes, we would. I would, anyhow, I would. One final thing: I think most of the Welsh people here would be glad if Wales loses, because then they'd enjoy themselves tonight criticizing the team, and saying who ought to have been in the team and criticizing the selectors who chose the people that are in it. They will. If we lose tonight, if we lose tonight-- Is this true? This is a good point. The Welsh are good--obviously love to talk, they love to argue and sing. The matter of losing, then, will not be a great tragic blow. Oh, it wouldn't be to the spectators at all. They'd enjoy themselves just as well if they win or lose. But they'd be mad as hatters trying to pinch [unintelligible]. We'd prefer to lose, really, wouldn't we? No, no, I wouldn't. I've got to be honest. If you're like this at the top of that table and study with a wooden spoon now, speak the truth, come on, Taffy. I'd like to beat England, oh yes, beat England, by all means, yes, but lose as well the same time. Everybody comes here, they all want to beat England, of course they do. We tie [unintelligible]. Well, why aren't you beating them? They didn't pick the right team. [Unintelligible] They don't pick the right team. We got five other selectors, isn't it? You mentioned Marie Lloyd, you were talking about the great old music hall performer. You mentioned her a moment ago. You said Marie Lloyd. Yes, yes. You remember her? Yes. Yes. Is Yes. I can sing one of her songs, if you like. She said Marie Lloyd [unintelligible]. Who's Marie Lloyd? Marie Lloyd-- [Unintelligible]. Lwyd is a Welsh word meaning grey. Grey. And Mari Lwyd is the Grey Woman. But Lwyd became Lloyd and is now used as a surname. So Mari Lwyd is a Welsh sort of ghost, but that's not the same as Marie Lloyd. No, we're talking about Marie Lloyd the great music hall performer whom our friend, our English friend is talking about. I thought [unintelligible] What did you like about Marie Lloyd?. Well, her gaiety, everything, she was--I think she would say today she got into everything. Oh, yes. What do you think happened to the music hall? It's disappeared pretty much, hasn't it? Oh, yes. It's a sorry, sorry day. I like to see the old music hall from Leeds now, the one, the old-time music hall, it's great. And we had Georgie Flock on the other night. Now he's reappeared in the [conch?] again, and there was one or two youngsters on and all, they were making the grade now on the boards on the stage, and it was a great show. And I plump for it every week, as I say when I'm at home. If I'm not out driving, you see, but it is, it's great. Why do you think the music hall died? Why do you think it did? Well, you've got so much other entertainments coming, first you had the talkies, the pictures, one thing and another, now you've got television which is making everybody idle, I think, in this country. There's no two ways about that because even as kids we had to go out and make our own fun, but not today. Everything is put into their hands for them. Right-- Before we leave, he's talking about how interesting about television, kids used to make their own fun, he said. Today it's more or less made for you. Ready for them. Regards cash for kids where we used to have a penny or penny each off our mother and our father. Today my lad, if he goes across the road he wants a half a crown, he wants a half a crown to do one little errand, you see, and of course we're soft now, this goes back to the point over the war years now, you came home and you thought, well, I won't let my kids suffer like I did, and they didn't want, if we can't have the homes fit for ___ and us to live in, we're going to see the kids come, and what if we don't, we spoil them. Of course we spoil them, we toss money to them left, right, and center, and they can buy entertainment. Apart from the other that's already made, and they don't go out, they don't go out and try hard like we used to, we'd go into these gyms into the back of these bobs box and learn something, learn an art, and we would learn to play rugby. And we would dedicate it with football. But you don't see them now, they'd rather come here and sit and watch it. Educationalists are aware of this problem. And in fact, I suppose it'll get, and the problem will get worse rather than better because, I mean, as computers take over, I mean the ultimate would be that man doesn't have to do any work at all. Everything will be done by machines, but what will man do then? For 24 hours a day, he can't sleep all day long. So it's the problem of the educationalists to try to educate the kids, the children, into how to spend their spare time. But our friend, our good singing genial Welsh friend, you seem to disagree. I do. People tend to cry out on the younger generation. I don't know what myself for me. No, but I'm not. You know, they cry and moan that they have it too easy. But do they? I think I enjoyed myself more than what they are enjoying themselves now. So they've got to buy it. They've got to buy their enjoyment. But it's our fault. You can't condemn the younger generation. Oh, no, I don't condemn them. The younger generation has made great strides since 1960. Things have changed faster in this younger generation. They're far more aware of what's going on, and they're not cowed or brow-beaten at all. I find it easier to teach now, and they're more--what I say. They're more responsive. Some people say that I had to sell echoes to go to the pictures and all this, well, that's is wrong, isn't it? So you had to sell echoes, I didn't have to sell echoes, I was brought up in that area where they said, "Okay, go to the pictures." You know. Go skating, go dancing, go anywhere. But the kids aren't wrong, they're bloody great I reckon, great, real great, the kids are. The kids of today. Because it doesn't matter where you go, there's good or bad in all communities, either old or young. Now, of course there is, isn't there? But as I say, we do spoil the children of today. There's no two ways about that. We do! I honestly believe you were spoiled just as much as, how shall I say it? You were spoiled just as much as conditions allowed, as what I was spoiled, and what I spoil my young daughter. I honestly-- Conditions comparing the two, you might have a point there, yes, under the conditions of those days and these days, of course, but I still maintain that the kids are a little spoiled. But every parent says that, I'm honestly convinced that every parent says this. I spoil my daughter more than she should be spoiled, I'm sure, you know. But it's not right to say, "They spoiled. They spoiled. They spoiled. No, they spoiled. Okay, I was spoiled, you were spoiled, your father was spoiled, your grandfather was spoiled, as conditions allowed. I honestly believe this, 'cause every parent strives to give their children more than what they had themselves. It's a very debatable point, it's a very debatable point. Well, look, I'm sorry that I've got to leave. Yeah, I know, thank you. Now the crowd is now letting out, there's 60,000 people. The match is over, I take it England has won-- Who won? I don't know, I'm assuming, they weren't really--but the crowd is letting out. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I'd like your company very much. You're genial, you're--so I'll keep talking, this is, the crowd has finally let out. So really, the match itself is of secondary importance. The joy of it coming here on the trip, basically that was it. The match was drawn late business. The match was drawn. Oh, drawn? Yes. You mean to say that Wales tied it up? That's the best possible result. Now, now I've got to ask you one last question. That's the best possible result. We didn't lose to England-- I've got to ask And, yet, we can still criticize the team. That's what I mean. I want to ask you one question. Now that the match is drawn, what will the conversation be like on the train back? Oh, the choice of the team, without a doubt. The choice of-- Undoubtedly they should all have been dropped. They should have put in someone else. Jared, King Jared should never have been there. He could have kicked six goals in the first half that I almost saw. So if anything, the fact that Welsh ended in a draw is even worse than a loss, because now there's double frustration. No, it's just right. Just, just right. Just right. We love frustration, and we thrive on 'Cause there's still--oh, just right because you didn't lose to England. No. At the same time, you didn't win, so you have good cause to complain. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. What's the marvelous Welsh word for farewell or good luck? What's the word in Welsh? [Welsh]. [Welsh].

Welshman 1 [Welsh]. Good afternoon. Good health.

Studs Terkel Thank you.

Welshman 1 So Bye.

Studs Terkel I'm talking to Ann, David's wife, and here we are at home. And, so, Matthew aged three, round and about, we just came from that rugby match. We're in the town of Isselworth. Is that the word, Isselworth?

Ann Thompson Isleworth.

Studs Terkel Isleworth, I beg your pardon. Tell me, how would you describe the, now you have a problem. We're all going to go out tonight, but you said it may be a sitter problem. How come?

Ann Thompson Well, because we find in this area that people are not interested in going out. I meet other young wives around here, and I ask them, would they be, care to do some babysitting, and I'd do it for them, and they say, "Oh yes, we babysit anytime you want it," but of course they never want to go out, so you can't really ask them, not seriously, because all people here want to do is to sit and look after their televisions, sit at home in the evening and don't want to fraternize with other people. You can talk to people over the garden fence, you can talk to them in the road, but you never get into their houses.

Studs Terkel How come?

Ann Thompson Well, I've tried, I've asked people in to coffee. They never come. There's always an excuse, always an excuse. The only way you ever get into anyone's house is by having a child who might go and play. People are not interested in one another here, only interest in their own

Studs Terkel What do they do?

Ann Thompson Very little as far as young people are concerned. I think young mothers as soon as they can go out to work, go out to work, and elder women with elder children go out to work. It's all looking after yourself, mate. There's no local life at all.

Studs Terkel Describe the suburb as far as economics and social stratum.

Ann Thompson Well, this suburb is, consists of, practically completely consists of small three-bedroom houses which were built either immediately before the war or straight after the war. So all the houses are identical. Before that, this is market garden. There was nothing here at all.

Studs Terkel This middle-class?

Ann Thompson Yes, I should say it's lower middle-class, I should think people earn a sort of, 25 to 30 pounds a week bracket, perhaps slightly less. Completely unintellectual people living here.

Studs Terkel Oh, not too many professional

Ann Thompson No, no. They're mostly not professional I should say, they're people that work, say, for the transport or in offices and clerks. Certain number of people work in factories. They're not poor, nobody around here is poor. I think they're all quite comfortably off, and I come back again always to the thing that comes typically often, they don't want to share and they don't want to mix.

Studs Terkel You find yourself not overwhelmingly happy in this.

Ann Thompson No, because I find that there's no one who is on a similar wave-length to David and myself. We have pretty well nothing to talk to people about, apart from the weather.

Studs Terkel So you have, there are no close friends among your neighbors.

Ann Thompson The only, not amongst neighbors at all, they are not interested in one. I have met one young couple who live close to us and we see a great deal of them. He's an architect and she was an artist, and they're keen on going out and go to the National Film Theatre, and we sometimes take

Studs Terkel Primarily young couples live here, would you

Ann Thompson No, I should say primarily middle-aged couples, or people that moved into the houses when they were built. Those that have moved away, the houses have been bought by young people, but it's mostly middle-aged people.

Studs Terkel Now the subject, now you are having some new arrivals into the community that seems to create it seem a problem.

Ann Thompson Yes, we're getting a lot of Pakistanis here. And there is lots of local resentment against them. Perhaps with reason, in so much as they overcrowd the houses so desperately, they put four or five families into a small semi-detached house. And I know of a house that's been up for sale for a year because the house next door to it has got Pakistanis in it, and no one will buy it. Again, I get very angry because I hope I have a liberal attitude towards color, and I get extremely angry at the way people object if one's child plays with a colored child at school, which is happening. It's all very wrong.

Studs Terkel Around here, do you think this is the lower middle-class aspect is a factor, here, too, with the possibility of housing and competition, is that it?

Ann Thompson I just don't know. I don't know what lies behind it. I think that people are very frightened that the value of their property will go down. I think that is the most important thing, because people are so keen on their property. You'll find here that houses are immaculate. Perhaps this is the era of the do-it-yourself husband because they're not reading people on the whole, they're practical people and you'll find there's constant round of redecorating, doing up your house, improving it, because the husbands have very little else to do, I think, really, it's their interest and that people don't want houses with four or five families in them and rundown.

Studs Terkel So the property becomes very important. The property becomes more important to the people here. Very little reading?

Ann Thompson No, I don't think there is very much reading, and I think there's absolutely no interest in social gatherings. It is a very typical London outer suburb, I

Studs Terkel This is interesting, you referred to the colored problem it's called here, we're talking now about Indians, though, East Indians, about the Pakistani primarily in this case, with England it's Pakistani and West Indians.

Ann Thompson Yes, it is, because they are all so very different, you'll find the color problem that exists in Notting Hill Gate area of London which is mainly West Indian. The housing problem is utterly different. I think partially because of the way they behave, you'll find the Pakistanis are not rowdy people, you don't have problems of it, you have overcrowding but you don't have problems of parties and all-night bongo drums going and rowdyism. The Pakistanis are very, very middle-class themselves, really. They don't go out. They keep to their houses, a lot of the women, most of the women speak no English whatsoever, don't go out except, perhaps, just to the shops, don't mix with the local people. And in fact they're much more like the local people than the local people realize.

Studs Terkel And, yet, the local people resent them.

Ann Thompson Yes, they do, but they can't imagine--

Studs Terkel Like the local people, local who real--like me, they're very similar then, in whole outlook.

Ann Thompson I think so. I think so.

Studs Terkel There is a law, is there not, a British law about non-discriminatory--

Ann Thompson Yes, there is. I think I was telling you earlier that we had an experience, we were trying to sell this house, and a house agent phoned me to ask me specifically whether I would allow colored people to come round the house, because if I didn't want them to, he wasn't going to send them. Which I think isn't on, and I said so. But of course, our neighbors would be very upset if we sold to colored people, because this row of houses has no Blacks in it, let's say.

Studs Terkel They call Blacks the, this is interesting,

Ann Thompson Isleworth people, a lot of Isleworth people, [worse? work? worth?] people, I was taught to say "colored" because I was brought up in Bermuda.

Studs Terkel You were born up in Bermuda.

Ann Thompson Yes.

Studs Terkel Come back to this theme, so your neighbors would object. Would you sell to a Pakistani family?

Ann Thompson If a Pakistani family offered me the price we were asking for this house, I don't see why I should not. But when we bought this house, the people we were buying a house from took us to the neighbors on either side and introduced us as being Mr. and Mrs. Thompson for the people who had bought the house, and you see we haven't sold it to a colored family.

Studs Terkel That's interesting, because this has been going, this--

Ann Thompson There is that fear, isn't it? Problem

Studs Terkel Problem has set itself up for some time because you've been here since about four years.

Ann Thompson We've been here four years, so even four years ago they were beginning to feel it was coming.

Studs Terkel And, so, there is a, is there a committee of white people who work on this?

Ann Thompson I don't think there is anything much in the way of committees here at all. They are completely non-active as far as I know here.

Studs Terkel But the racism is here. This is interesting, what about school, does that--do you know any Pakistani families yourself?

Ann Thompson No, I don't. Because I haven't come in contact with any. My little girl goes to the local primary school, has a couple of Pakistani, well, quite a few Pakistani children in her class and at her table. They have a little girl called Manjit who speaks no English at all, and Catherine, I'm pleased to say, looks after Manjit quite a lot. I haven't, don't know any because none live all that close to me in the particular row of houses that we live, I smile at them in the streets and I see the mothers out shopping, because there's very little ground of contact, really, because a lot of them don't speak English in any case.

Studs Terkel What, then, you're really talking here about isolation, aren't you, on all sides. I mean, not just a question of isolation on the basis of race, or as what you call it, but you say your neighbors, who are Caucasian, are all by themselves.

Ann Thompson Yes, and quite definitely want to be. And you really have a situation where you don't like to ask for help if you need it. I have on occasion sort of asked if the children have been ill, perhaps someone would come in and hold the fort whilst I go for the doctor and well, one always knows how people react and whether they're really keen to or whether they're doing it because they're being forced into it. All I can say is, I don't do it again unless I'm absolutely forced into it. The friendly attitude doesn't work, it doesn't work, because I came, when we came here we asked people who live a couple of houses away to come in and have a glass of sherry. This is way I was brought up. It would have been nice to get to know them. Well, they did come, and it was all very awkward. They obviously didn't really feel at home doing so, and we've never ever been asked into their house.

Studs Terkel That's interesting. Now, these neighbors whom you invited to sherry, they felt awkward because they felt, perhaps, you and they spoke a different language. Might even, I might be even more specific about that, different accent, too, possibly.

Ann Thompson Well, in this case not a different accent. Most of the people do speak with a slight--well, the more London accents I hope than we do. But not all of them, and certainly not the people that we asked in to sherry, but nevertheless it obviously wasn't the thing to

Studs Terkel What was it, you, your interest and theirs were not, you had nothing to talk about, was that it?

Ann Thompson David and I usually can talk to most people. If you want to know, basically we had nothing to talk about, because I think that they, again, were interested in making their house as nice as possible and what else I just don't know. You couldn't fi--you couldn't talk about books, you couldn't talk about films, you couldn't talk about Vietnam if you wanted, you couldn't, not interested.

Studs Terkel Well, this is fascinating. You think this suburb,

Ann Thompson Isleworth.

Studs Terkel Isleworth. You think this represents many suburbs?

Ann Thompson Yes, I think it represents an awful lot of suburbs of London. I think it's very, very typical. And, to me, it's a wasteland.

Studs Terkel Well, then, this leads to a question about English life itself, and London itself. Do you think this is pervading London life, too?

Ann Thompson I think in London it's possible to be very lonely. I think it's very possible to be very lonely out here. But the difference between central London and here is enormous. Central London is far more mixed from Isleworth. Far more mixed.

Studs Terkel Where would you like to live if you had your choice?

Ann Thompson Well, if I had my choice I think I would live either in the center of London, and I have no choice about that because the center of London is far too expensive to live in, or in the country. And in fact David and I very much hope before too long to move down to Sussex, the part of Sussex where my parents live and which we love very much near Chichester. She's a cathedral city, and where we have many more contacts and many more people who we can talk to, and connections with the Chichester Theatre.

Studs Terkel Would David commute to London or, you know, just get a job there?

Ann Thompson Well, I think David one day would like to spend his time being a writer, not doing anything else, and when that happens we'll be down there and we'll be living in the country.

Studs Terkel You're from Bermuda. Were you raised in Bermuda?

Ann Thompson No, I was born in Switzerland. I was born on a train in Switzerland. I then lived in Portugal, and then I was, my sort of age from three to seven was in Bermuda. Then we came to England in the end of the war and after that I lived in London.

Studs Terkel Your parents traveled a great deal, then.

Ann Thompson My parents traveled a great deal. They lived in Brazil. They lived in Portugal. My mother was brought up in Madeira and they only settled in England after the war.

Studs Terkel So it would be safe to describe you, then, as upper middle-class?

Ann Thompson I think so, yes.

Studs Terkel So, perhaps one last question then, that's about coming back to the suburb. This place, the ac--I meant, said accent, I meant an accent of, how can I put it? you know, the accent voice of working class and the accent of others, it's been a feature of English life.

Ann Thompson It's terribly important. Yes.

Studs Terkel And the people you invited in, I mean they have a working-class

Ann Thompson No, they didn't. This is what I mean. They didn't. Not in the least.

Studs Terkel So, they're middle class, but that's a new, there's something happening here. You're talking about interests. Maybe it always has been so.

Ann Thompson Yes, I think, perhaps, it would, it has always been so, and I think that if you live here long enough, perhaps you become the same as all the people around you. And it's certainly the rebels that refuse to, and they go when they

Studs Terkel I suppose if there is a new development, it's a discovery about race. If it's always been about the, that is, the revelation now--

Ann Thompson It's a revelation because people have never had to face it before, and they are facing it.