Interviewing Alec Wilder discussing his music and his book: American Popular Songs ; part 2
BROADCAST: 1980 | DURATION: 00:38:33
Synopsis
Part 2. Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras discuss Wilder's book "American popular songs", published in 1972.
Transcript
Tap within the transcript to jump to that part of the audio.
Studs Terkel Billie Holiday and one of the Gershwin evergreens, "Man I Love," on Alec Wilder has some comments about interpretation of it as well as the music of Gershwin. This is part two of a three-part program based upon a, quite a remarkable book by Mr. Wilder, distinguished American composer and very ascerbic and indeed very perceptive observer of the American musical scene. "American Popular Song" is the book. "The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," Oxford Press the publishers. You may recall the first program dealt with the beginnings of it as Wilder saw it, and the first of the American pop composers he saw it in someone is Jerome Kern, breaking away from the European scene, and with Alec Wilder is our mutual friend, the art critic, artist, sculptor and sort of all-around man Harry Bouras, who will join in the conversation. And we -- the first program ended with Gershwin's "Swanee," and at the time Alec, Harry, Alec was describing "Swanee" written for a performer, Jolson. At the same time you have rather unconventional comments about Gershwin.
Alec Wilder Yeah, I know, I'm probably be taken to task because it's not the the conventional point of view about the man, and I -- maybe it's sour grapes to a degree because I I don't feel that he did make this glorious step through into the bringing together the popular and the concert world. I said that at that time he was the first popular writer to be accepted by, well, I suppose they in those days they called it "café society," and he was their pet. And I think that of, not that he wasn't talented, he was very talented, but that the tremendous enthusiasm for Gershwin which has spilled over even to today by the older people, is based on the fact that he was a a pet of of society's, and they wanted him for their very own. And my feeling about him is that while he's talented, he always bears the mark in his popular music of the of the songwriter's aggression, that is, the pop writer's aggression. And I find it a little bit less than -- than tender, a little bit less than -- there's no quietude in him. The few songs that I've mentioned in the chapter about him that I think are the most talented are the less aggressive songs, like "Dear Little Girl," which was -- Ira Gershwin told me had been put into a matinee of a show, I've forgotten what it was called, and he said it was the only song they ever did together he got not one hand of applause. And they took it right out. But somebody found it and put it back in a revival album, and I -- for me, that kind of song is a more talented song than these [sings] always the hard sell, and it it maybe it's because I'm not aggressive myself.
Harry Bouras What's Alec's talking about is this repeated line kind of thing that Gershwin likes to do, he likes to take a little fragment of tune, [sings] and repeat them over and over again, and that's this -- the song's selling idea. "Swanee" is full of that kind of
Alec Wilder Well, that was a deliberate.
Harry Bouras Yeah, but I mean it's like writing them to be sold in the stores at the time the songs -- Studs, you know they were, they were pushers for the songs worked in this [art?], in stores, and so on. They sold the sheet music right there on the floor, because everybody played at home on the piano. And the short line, [throat clearing] and and a lot
Alec Wilder In the history of pop music,
Harry Bouras the the short line is the early line, and Gershwin was one of the best short-line hard-sell writers, but he never developed. And "Dear Little Girl" is, the reason that didn't work is was because it was a long-line Gershwin, they're very
Studs Terkel You know, what's interesting about Alec's book, we pointed this out very briefly during the first program, is that he analyzes each song musically yet it's done in a manner that the layman reading the book can understand, too, very simply, just to
Alec Wilder -- Well, I'm delighted to hear that.
Studs Terkel Alec, you associated Gershwin with the attempt to fuse classical and pop. What about jazz? I'm thinking about "Nice Work if You Can Get It," it's also been a favorite of jazz performers,
Alec Wilder Yeah, well, for very good reason, because of -- you can always spot those songs. They're the changes, so-called, the harmonic progressions occur in such a way as to allow the improvisor lot of room to maneuver in, and Gershwin songs had that, because the harmony didn't change that often. If you get a song that's packed, where the harmony changes almost every beat, the improviser doesn't like it, he likes to change every half measure or every whole measure, because that gives him a chance to make his figures in that change before it shifts.
Studs Terkel Suppose we hear a passage from Ella Fitzgerald, "Nice Work if You Can Get It," and your thoughts on-
Studs Terkel Right.
Studs Terkel -hearing this. [music fading] Thoughts are reluctantly fading out on Ella. Harry, Alec.
Alec Wilder That, well of course that I immediately, I [match strike] practically jumped out of my chair because it sounded like Ellis Larkin. I don't know whether that is the album that she did with Ella. Ellis. But he's, he, you know, disappeared for a long time and has now emerged. He's back playing in New York now. But, there is a case where a singer gets away from the melody for a moment but comes back quickly enough to show respect to the writer. And that was what I was talking to you about in the, you know, the some back a ways when we were talking about early songs that some singers, I feel they all should sing the total melody before they break away from it, just as I feel it in even in a-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder -unless it's a straight-out jazz soloist- Yeah.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder -he should show respect to the writer by showing what he's improvising on!
Studs Terkel This is the thing you had about Billie Holiday, that she
Studs Terkel Breaks away too soon.
Alec Wilder Gets away too soon, that's right.
Studs Terkel But here again, is, isn't part of Gershwin's contribution, I'm just curious, that, you know, the great mistake and observation of many people who don't know jazz associating "Rhapsody in Blue" with jazz as Paul Whiteman played it, but Gershwin was influenced by jazz, was
Alec Wilder Well, that's a funny thing,
Harry Bouras But that was in the air.
Alec Wilder It was in the air, but you know
Alec Wilder Well, "[My Emile?]" came first. Then
Harry Bouras -- [Gaston Demondes?] was first.
Alec Wilder Was first before the "Rhapsody."
Harry Bouras And I think the Stravinsky "Ragtimes."
Harry Bouras The two ragtimes for piano preceded it, and there were a number of other pieces prior to the the Aeolian [Hulk?] Hall concert, where where people had used jazz elements. Gershwin did not initiate that idea.
Alec Wilder And he was not one of those fellows, contrary to some legends, who hung around the bands. There's been no corroboration that he got his bicycle and used to go up and listen in to up in someplace in Harlem. He didn't -- there's no corroboration
Studs Terkel We should point out, by the way, that we're dealing with popular music in this book, so we're not touching on, say, "Porgy and Bess," or music
Alec Wilder No, no, because hat's
Studs Terkel Yeah. Perhaps, well, so let's [play?] another example of Gershwin, something wholly different that you like, one of his favorites, you -- "They Can't Take
Alec Wilder Oh that's that's a remarkable song, and I'll tell you just one quick story about it. I had a job arranging for a show in New York, a radio show, and I was the -- how I got this position, I'll never know. I guess it was Mitchell Miller got me the job. And I had the right to pick the songs, and hot off the press came the score from I guess it was "Golden Follies." I think that was what it was from, I don't remember what
Studs Terkel "Shall We Dance."
Alec Wilder Well, it's -- all right. So the score came in, and I turned it down. [laughter] I said I didn't want to make it, and really it's pretty stupid of me because that's one of his best songs.
Studs Terkel What is it about this that attracts you?
Alec Wilder You mean, the song itself?
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Alec Wilder Well, it's it's very inventive, and it's very -- of course, it's kind of bittersweet. And it, it's a rhythmic ballad in the best sense of the word. I don't know if it was done that way in the show
Harry Bouras One -- one other thing, though, it's not again it's not a typical Gershwin song.
Harry Bouras [Sings]. And it spreads out.
Alec Wilder It
Harry Bouras It's not that -- [unintelligible] repeated line. It's a long.
Alec Wilder That's right. [music fading]
Studs Terkel Alec Wilder was commenting about my idol, Billie Holiday, he said, she has a little trouble here with bottom notes.
Alec Wilder Well, she can't sing the bottom note of the second phrase, so you don't hear the song. And that bothers me because I imagine Mr. Gershwin arrived at that note after, you know, thinking of maybe other notes and finally saying, "That's the note," and then along comes a singer and says, "No, I can't make the note, so I'll sing another one." I don't like that. Being a writer myself
Studs Terkel -- As far as the song is concerned, as far as Gershwin himself is concerned, you like to hear a surprise, the surprise aspect.
Alec Wilder Well, it's it's not only surprise, it's, it's, it's good, intelligent, sensitive, melodic writing, and I'm afraid we haven't quite heard it.
Alec Wilder Not quite. I'm sorry. Because [sings], she doesn't sing that note, she can't make it, and that's a very important note in that song.
Studs Terkel Thinking about who's that Gershwin, Irving Berlin, the beginner Kern, we come to one of your favorite pop composers. Well, it's the theater, too. We talked of the difference between theater, theater songs, show tunes and pop songs, the more sophisticated of it, so one of your favorites, Harold Arlen.
Studs Terkel No, I'm sorry, we're going to say -- no, let's hold it for a moment. Richard
Alec Wilder Richard? Love him. I love him dearly. And I don't know if among the records you have whether you have any of the verses of his songs, I should have mentioned it to you, because he wrote the best verses of anybody. In the [eighth?], you know, they don't really use, they stop using verses. I've never found out why. Mr. Rogers claimed that it was because in a mo- in movies they wanted to get to the selling, and the selling was the song, or it was the, was the chorus. So they didn't want us to have any introduction to it, so the movies had a lot to do with stopping the writing of verses. But he was a master at it. The verse being a more fluid of, a freer form than the chorus, because you weren't making a sale, you weren't asking the public to remember the verse, you were setting up. Mildred Bailey always loved verses because it set it up, set the chorus up, and she always made a point of it, and his verse writing is superb. And I don't know if what among the songs you picked are
Studs Terkel Well, I'm thinking for example I thought, Harry, that was almost an Alec Wilder type of thing, I thought of "Mountain Greenery," and it's almost a kind of "Garrick Gaieties" I think.
Alec Wilder Well, it was an early song, I know. An
Studs Terkel An early song of Rodgers, but "Mountain Greenery" is one that you've chosen.
Alec Wilder Oh, I love it. I love this song.
Harry Bouras Let me add something about verses to this, I think there's another reason, Alec, that they were dropped, and that is verses were traditionally used in the shows as the ligature from the spoken part.
Harry Bouras Into the song proper, and what happened it seems in a lot of the songs, is the verses are just not exp-explicable. I mean, they're just not understandable for the public in general, and what they want to do is get to the main issue of the song, which as you know, "I love you," they don't want to say "I love you" here in this in this restaurant
Alec Wilder -- Or where we met or something.
Harry Bouras Or where we met, and which was usually the proper thing of the verse that grew out of the scene.
Alec Wilder Now that's true, except that it happened in pop songs, too, and there may be one explanation. Gordon Jenkins brought the first stock -- I think it was a stock arrangement he made of a song -- the first person, the first arranger not to use a verse, and everybody was quite disturbed by it, and then they suddenly realized this was great, because that's what they really wanted to play was the chorus. He may have had an influence on there being no verses. I thought it was lack of paper during the Second World War. It wasn't. I thought they just ran, you know, you couldn't, could only use a certain amount of paper. I love verses, and yet I know that they'd had nothing to do with the sale of a song.
Studs Terkel This is very funny.
Harry Bouras But you can't imagine "Shining Hour," for instance, without its verse
Harry Bouras Which is one of the greatest songs ever -- have we got that coming up
Studs Terkel No, but go ahead.
Harry Bouras Well, I mean that, that song is, is is truncated as far as I'm concerned without its verse
Harry Bouras It
Studs Terkel You know's what's something funny? Alec made a parenthetical comment here that sometimes accident, or necessity may also help explain a certain thing. You said because of lack of paper during the war, the question, this is World War One
Alec Wilder That's when they stopped.
Studs Terkel But the idea that, that something may happen outside the world of the imagination.
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras Studs, if I can get arty for one
Harry Bouras The whole Impressionist movement where pai-- painters began to work outside had to do not so much with the whole change in the history of art, but the fact that a man in the United States named [Payne? -- it's actually John Goffe Rand who is credited with this] figured out a way of making lead tubes that you could stick paint in, so you could take them out with you.
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Harry Bouras See, prior to that, the painters had to go out with bowls and mortar and pestles
Alec Wilder Oh, I didn't know that.
Harry Bouras And grind the stuff and make a little tent and every -- but you could take his tubes, you could shove them in a little box and go out and paint in the field. That was important, really important, and Impressionism was the same as the, same story as the paper story.
Studs Terkel So here we come upon about life itself. The world outside influencing what is the work of a creative man. So we's, let's see what Sylvia Syms says about this. Alec knows her as a raffish rather-
Alec Wilder Yeah.
Studs Terkel -a performer, and "Mountain Greenery."
Alec Wilder Right.
Studs Terkel What were you saying, Alec, about
Alec Wilder Well, this is a case in point about the business of singing the tune first and then, you notice it in her second chorus, she starts to take off, she improvises, that's fine, because in your head is now planted that tune, and you know what she's making the variations on. And by the way, that's very good.
Harry Bouras That's a wonderful
Harry Bouras It's it's the old, very old classical,[throat clearing] popular in the Romantic period, classical form of theme and
Alec Wilder That's right! That's right!
Harry Bouras That's exactly what it is. But first you've got to state the little Diabelli steam or whatever the hell it is, and then
Harry Bouras You can go, and she did it, and it was perfectly magnificent.
Studs Terkel You know what? We're talking about performers now, now we have to, if we can just dwell on something Alec dwelled on during the first hour of this, the first part, Part One of this series, dealing with Alec Wilder's book, "American Popular Song" The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," the role, the lyricist effect upon the composer. You know, the song is both lyrics and music, and so we come to Rodgers and Larry Hart and "Connecticut Yankee." Take-
Harry Bouras It's immediately apparent that the lyrics to this song, and I mean, we're talking about Rodgers, but the lyrics are magnificent.
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras The rhymes are improbable, magical, they make the turn, the turn, the song take new turns, "and if you're good I'll chop wood," and "greenery/beanery"
Harry Bouras And wonderful rhymes and they keep on, and the rhymes all have the city juxtaposition, or the country juxtaposition-
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras -and that man is uttered the greatest lyricist.
Alec Wilder In spite of what Mr. Sondheim said. I hate to mention.
Harry Bouras Mr. Sondheim has yet to do much.
Studs Terkel You're talking about Lorenz Hart now, aren't you?
Harry Bouras Yes.
Studs Terkel Well, "Thou Swell" would be just a case in point, too, would it
Harry Bouras Oh, well there's I defy you to find an un-magnificant Lorenz Hart lyric. [music fading]
Alec Wilder Oh, dear, dear, dear.
Studs Terkel Oh, you -- Harry was pointing something out here while listening
Harry Bouras Oh, the rhymes of rich and kitchen and [such?], I can't, I can't stand this show. I'm going home. It's heartbreaking.
Alec Wilder And I'm very sad about the difficulty in getting permissions to quote lyrics, because the case in point right there. Out of, as I told you before, I wanted to make a comparative chapter between this man and and John Green. [Why?] not John Green. Johnny Mercer. Because a lot of things to be said
Studs Terkel Lorenz Hart and Mercer. Yeah,
Alec Wilder Yeah, and yet this, you wouldn't believe that the lyrics are harder to get permission to quote than the
Harry Bouras And you know, for for for the greater audience, Alec, that, that cannot read music, if the lyrics were appended-
Harry Bouras -to the actual music, it -- they'd know exactly what was going on from that.
Studs Terkel But as it is, despite the absence of lyrics, the fact is the book is a very rewarding one, a revealing one, too
Harry Bouras It's got that gentleman's voice in it, which
Studs Terkel "You Took Advantage of Me."
Alec Wilder That was an early one. That was Garrick Gaieties, wasn't it? And was done I believe, somebody told me, in the show much faster than than the revivals. A lot of songs were like that, you know, that they -- just to drop back for a minute to Gershwin, in the show the song which is now sung [sings]
Harry Bouras "Somebody to Watch
Alec Wilder Was done [sings]. It was like a -- and there again is by the way the fragment, the fragrant [sings], which is all right except you see the rivets.
Harry Bouras What's the very famous Kern that that happened with?
Harry Bouras There was a great Kern
Alec Wilder Well, I told him about that, the one about the tap dance? That was "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes."
Harry Bouras Yeah.
Studs Terkel "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." How originally "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes," this -- so popular ballad from "Roberta," of Kern, this ballad, that torch -- a torch song,
Alec Wilder That's right. [Sings].
Studs Terkel "You Took Advantage of Me." [Music fading] We hear, then, June Christy.
Alec Wilder That's a world, Studs, that's a world that is gone, and it, and it's not because it's the past because it was a happy world, it was a kind of a suggestive world without, you know, revealing all, and it was all gloriously sentimental.
Studs Terkel You know, we could talk about something sociological for a moment. I'm thinking of Alec Wilder whom I remember for many ye-- and who also has memories of the Depression, "Hard Times." You're speaking of another world now
Studs Terkel That is less -- it was also of a nightclub world, people were out to three, four in the morning
Studs Terkel What I call a two o'clock in the morning-type voice, that was June Christy
Studs Terkel She has, woman we're about to hear, Lee Wiley
Alec Wilder There were dreams in those days.
Studs Terkel But there was also something else involved, wasn't there, there was another kind of life being lived that's no longer lived in that manner. We're not talking about rock now, we're not about music -- we're talking about the very nature rock may reflect the change, possibly.
Alec Wilder Relevance wasn't in then.
Studs Terkel [laughter] This is Wilder's editorial
Studs Terkel "I've Got Five Dollars,"
Alec Wilder
Studs Terkel Billie Holiday and one of the Gershwin evergreens, "Man I Love," on Alec Wilder has some comments about interpretation of it as well as the music of Gershwin. This is part two of a three-part program based upon a, quite a remarkable book by Mr. Wilder, distinguished American composer and very ascerbic and indeed very perceptive observer of the American musical scene. "American Popular Song" is the book. "The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," Oxford Press the publishers. You may recall the first program dealt with the beginnings of it as Wilder saw it, and the first of the American pop composers he saw it in someone is Jerome Kern, breaking away from the European scene, and with Alec Wilder is our mutual friend, the art critic, artist, sculptor and sort of all-around man Harry Bouras, who will join in the conversation. And we -- the first program ended with Gershwin's "Swanee," and at the time Alec, Harry, Alec was describing "Swanee" written for a performer, Jolson. At the same time you have rather unconventional comments about Gershwin. Yeah, I know, I'm probably be taken to task because it's not the the conventional point of view about the man, and I -- maybe it's sour grapes to a degree because I I don't feel that he did make this glorious step through into the bringing together the popular and the concert world. I said that at that time he was the first popular writer to be accepted by, well, I suppose they in those days they called it "café society," and he was their pet. And I think that of, not that he wasn't talented, he was very talented, but that the tremendous enthusiasm for Gershwin which has spilled over even to today by the older people, is based on the fact that he was a a pet of of society's, and they wanted him for their very own. And my feeling about him is that while he's talented, he always bears the mark in his popular music of the of the songwriter's aggression, that is, the pop writer's aggression. And I find it a little bit less than -- than tender, a little bit less than -- there's no quietude in him. The few songs that I've mentioned in the chapter about him that I think are the most talented are the less aggressive songs, like "Dear Little Girl," which was -- Ira Gershwin told me had been put into a matinee of a show, I've forgotten what it was called, and he said it was the only song they ever did together he got not one hand of applause. And they took it right out. But somebody found it and put it back in a revival album, and I -- for me, that kind of song is a more talented song than these [sings] always the hard sell, and it it maybe it's because I'm not aggressive myself. What's Alec's talking about is this repeated line kind of thing that Gershwin likes to do, he likes to take a little fragment of tune, [sings] and repeat them over and over again, and that's this -- the song's selling idea. "Swanee" is full of that kind of -- Well, that was a deliberate. Yeah, but I mean it's like writing them to be sold in the stores at the time the songs -- Studs, you know they were, they were pushers for the songs worked in this [art?], in stores, and so on. They sold the sheet music right there on the floor, because everybody played at home on the piano. And the short line, [throat clearing] and and a lot In the history of pop music, the the short line is the early line, and Gershwin was one of the best short-line hard-sell writers, but he never developed. And "Dear Little Girl" is, the reason that didn't work is was because it was a long-line Gershwin, they're very You know, what's interesting about Alec's book, we pointed this out very briefly during the first program, is that he analyzes each song musically yet it's done in a manner that the layman reading the book can understand, too, very simply, just to -- Well, I'm delighted to hear that. Alec, you associated Gershwin with the attempt to fuse classical and pop. What about jazz? I'm thinking about "Nice Work if You Can Get It," it's also been a favorite of jazz performers, too. Yeah, well, for very good reason, because of -- you can always spot those songs. They're the changes, so-called, the harmonic progressions occur in such a way as to allow the improvisor lot of room to maneuver in, and Gershwin songs had that, because the harmony didn't change that often. If you get a song that's packed, where the harmony changes almost every beat, the improviser doesn't like it, he likes to change every half measure or every whole measure, because that gives him a chance to make his figures in that change before it shifts. Suppose we hear a passage from Ella Fitzgerald, "Nice Work if You Can Get It," and your thoughts on- Right. -hearing this. [music fading] Thoughts are reluctantly fading out on Ella. Harry, Alec. That, well of course that I immediately, I [match strike] practically jumped out of my chair because it sounded like Ellis Larkin. I don't know whether that is the album that she did with Ella. Ellis. But he's, he, you know, disappeared for a long time and has now emerged. He's back playing in New York now. But, there is a case where a singer gets away from the melody for a moment but comes back quickly enough to show respect to the writer. And that was what I was talking to you about in the, you know, the some back a ways when we were talking about early songs that some singers, I feel they all should sing the total melody before they break away from it, just as I feel it in even in a- Yeah. -unless it's a straight-out jazz soloist- Yeah. -he should show respect to the writer by showing what he's improvising on! This is the thing you had about Billie Holiday, that she -- That's Breaks away too soon. Gets away too soon, that's right. But here again, is, isn't part of Gershwin's contribution, I'm just curious, that, you know, the great mistake and observation of many people who don't know jazz associating "Rhapsody in Blue" with jazz as Paul Whiteman played it, but Gershwin was influenced by jazz, was he Well, that's a funny thing, you But that was in the air. It was in the air, but you know -- [Darius Well, "[My Emile?]" came first. Then -- [Gaston Demondes?] was first. Was first before the "Rhapsody." And I think the Stravinsky "Ragtimes." I don't know. The two ragtimes for piano preceded it, and there were a number of other pieces prior to the the Aeolian [Hulk?] Hall concert, where where people had used jazz elements. Gershwin did not initiate that idea. And he was not one of those fellows, contrary to some legends, who hung around the bands. There's been no corroboration that he got his bicycle and used to go up and listen in to up in someplace in Harlem. He didn't -- there's no corroboration with We should point out, by the way, that we're dealing with popular music in this book, so we're not touching on, say, "Porgy and Bess," or music in No, no, because hat's -- Yeah. Perhaps, well, so let's [play?] another example of Gershwin, something wholly different that you like, one of his favorites, you -- "They Can't Take That Oh that's that's a remarkable song, and I'll tell you just one quick story about it. I had a job arranging for a show in New York, a radio show, and I was the -- how I got this position, I'll never know. I guess it was Mitchell Miller got me the job. And I had the right to pick the songs, and hot off the press came the score from I guess it was "Golden Follies." I think that was what it was from, I don't remember what -- "Shall We Dance." Well, it's -- all right. So the score came in, and I turned it down. [laughter] I said I didn't want to make it, and really it's pretty stupid of me because that's one of his best songs. What is it about this that attracts you? You mean, the song itself? Yeah. Well, it's it's very inventive, and it's very -- of course, it's kind of bittersweet. And it, it's a rhythmic ballad in the best sense of the word. I don't know if it was done that way in the show -- One -- one other thing, though, it's not again it's not a typical Gershwin song. It isn't. [Sings]. And it spreads out. It It's not that -- [unintelligible] repeated line. It's a long. That's right. [music fading] Alec Wilder was commenting about my idol, Billie Holiday, he said, she has a little trouble here with bottom notes. Well, she can't sing the bottom note of the second phrase, so you don't hear the song. And that bothers me because I imagine Mr. Gershwin arrived at that note after, you know, thinking of maybe other notes and finally saying, "That's the note," and then along comes a singer and says, "No, I can't make the note, so I'll sing another one." I don't like that. Being a writer myself -- As far as the song is concerned, as far as Gershwin himself is concerned, you like to hear a surprise, the surprise aspect. Well, it's it's not only surprise, it's, it's, it's good, intelligent, sensitive, melodic writing, and I'm afraid we haven't quite heard it. But we -- Not quite. I'm sorry. Because [sings], she doesn't sing that note, she can't make it, and that's a very important note in that song. Thinking about who's that Gershwin, Irving Berlin, the beginner Kern, we come to one of your favorite pop composers. Well, it's the theater, too. We talked of the difference between theater, theater songs, show tunes and pop songs, the more sophisticated of it, so one of your favorites, Harold Arlen. That's right. No, I'm sorry, we're going to say -- no, let's hold it for a moment. Richard Richard? Love him. I love him dearly. And I don't know if among the records you have whether you have any of the verses of his songs, I should have mentioned it to you, because he wrote the best verses of anybody. In the [eighth?], you know, they don't really use, they stop using verses. I've never found out why. Mr. Rogers claimed that it was because in a mo- in movies they wanted to get to the selling, and the selling was the song, or it was the, was the chorus. So they didn't want us to have any introduction to it, so the movies had a lot to do with stopping the writing of verses. But he was a master at it. The verse being a more fluid of, a freer form than the chorus, because you weren't making a sale, you weren't asking the public to remember the verse, you were setting up. Mildred Bailey always loved verses because it set it up, set the chorus up, and she always made a point of it, and his verse writing is superb. And I don't know if what among the songs you picked are any Well, I'm thinking for example I thought, Harry, that was almost an Alec Wilder type of thing, I thought of "Mountain Greenery," and it's almost a kind of "Garrick Gaieties" I think. Well, it was an early song, I know. An early song of Rodgers, but "Mountain Greenery" is one that you've chosen. Oh, I love it. I love this song. Let me add something about verses to this, I think there's another reason, Alec, that they were dropped, and that is verses were traditionally used in the shows as the ligature from the spoken part. That's right. Into the song proper, and what happened it seems in a lot of the songs, is the verses are just not exp-explicable. I mean, they're just not understandable for the public in general, and what they want to do is get to the main issue of the song, which as you know, "I love you," they don't want to say "I love you" here in this in this restaurant -- Or where we met or something. Or where we met, and which was usually the proper thing of the verse that grew out of the scene. Now that's true, except that it happened in pop songs, too, and there may be one explanation. Gordon Jenkins brought the first stock -- I think it was a stock arrangement he made of a song -- the first person, the first arranger not to use a verse, and everybody was quite disturbed by it, and then they suddenly realized this was great, because that's what they really wanted to play was the chorus. He may have had an influence on there being no verses. I thought it was lack of paper during the Second World War. It wasn't. I thought they just ran, you know, you couldn't, could only use a certain amount of paper. I love verses, and yet I know that they'd had nothing to do with the sale of a song. This is very funny. But you can't imagine "Shining Hour," for instance, without its verse -- Oh, Which is one of the greatest songs ever -- have we got that coming up any No, but go ahead. Well, I mean that, that song is, is is truncated as far as I'm concerned without its verse -- Without It You know's what's something funny? Alec made a parenthetical comment here that sometimes accident, or necessity may also help explain a certain thing. You said because of lack of paper during the war, the question, this is World War One you're Two! No, two! That's when they stopped. But the idea that, that something may happen outside the world of the imagination. That's Studs, if I can get arty for one moment. Yeah, please. The whole Impressionist movement where pai-- painters began to work outside had to do not so much with the whole change in the history of art, but the fact that a man in the United States named [Payne? -- it's actually John Goffe Rand who is credited with this] figured out a way of making lead tubes that you could stick paint in, so you could take them out with you. Yeah. See, prior to that, the painters had to go out with bowls and mortar and pestles Oh, I didn't know that. And grind the stuff and make a little tent and every -- but you could take his tubes, you could shove them in a little box and go out and paint in the field. That was important, really important, and Impressionism was the same as the, same story as the paper story. So here we come upon about life itself. The world outside influencing what is the work of a creative man. So we's, let's see what Sylvia Syms says about this. Alec knows her as a raffish rather- Yeah. -a performer, and "Mountain Greenery." Right. Early Rodgers. I never heard What were you saying, Alec, about [unintelligible]? Well, this is a case in point about the business of singing the tune first and then, you notice it in her second chorus, she starts to take off, she improvises, that's fine, because in your head is now planted that tune, and you know what she's making the variations on. And by the way, that's very good. That's a wonderful I never heard it before. It's it's the old, very old classical,[throat clearing] popular in the Romantic period, classical form of theme and variation. That's right! That's right! That's exactly what it is. But first you've got to state the little Diabelli steam or whatever the hell it is, and then -- Then go! You can go, and she did it, and it was perfectly magnificent. You know what? We're talking about performers now, now we have to, if we can just dwell on something Alec dwelled on during the first hour of this, the first part, Part One of this series, dealing with Alec Wilder's book, "American Popular Song" The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," the role, the lyricist effect upon the composer. You know, the song is both lyrics and music, and so we come to Rodgers and Larry Hart and "Connecticut Yankee." Take- It's immediately apparent that the lyrics to this song, and I mean, we're talking about Rodgers, but the lyrics are magnificent. That's The rhymes are improbable, magical, they make the turn, the turn, the song take new turns, "and if you're good I'll chop wood," and "greenery/beanery" -- That's right. And wonderful rhymes and they keep on, and the rhymes all have the city juxtaposition, or the country juxtaposition- That's -and that man is uttered the greatest lyricist. I know. For me. In spite of what Mr. Sondheim said. I hate to mention. Mr. Sondheim has yet to do much. Well, he did say -- You're talking about Lorenz Hart now, aren't you? Yes. Well, "Thou Swell" would be just a case in point, too, would it not? Oh, well there's I defy you to find an un-magnificant Lorenz Hart lyric. [music fading] Oh, dear, dear, dear. Oh, you -- Harry was pointing something out here while listening to Oh, the rhymes of rich and kitchen and [such?], I can't, I can't stand this show. I'm going home. It's heartbreaking. And I'm very sad about the difficulty in getting permissions to quote lyrics, because the case in point right there. Out of, as I told you before, I wanted to make a comparative chapter between this man and and John Green. [Why?] not John Green. Johnny Mercer. Because a lot of things to be said -- Lorenz Hart and Mercer. Yeah, and yet this, you wouldn't believe that the lyrics are harder to get permission to quote than the tunes. And you know, for for for the greater audience, Alec, that, that cannot read music, if the lyrics were appended- I know. -to the actual music, it -- they'd know exactly what was going on from that. But as it is, despite the absence of lyrics, the fact is the book is a very rewarding one, a revealing one, too -- It's got that gentleman's voice in it, which is "You Took Advantage of Me." That was an early one. That was Garrick Gaieties, wasn't it? And was done I believe, somebody told me, in the show much faster than than the revivals. A lot of songs were like that, you know, that they -- just to drop back for a minute to Gershwin, in the show the song which is now sung [sings] "Somebody to Watch Over Was done [sings]. It was like a -- and there again is by the way the fragment, the fragrant [sings], which is all right except you see the rivets. What's the very famous Kern that that happened with? Wait a minute. There was a great Kern story Well, I told him about that, the one about the tap dance? That was "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." Yeah. "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." How originally "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes," this -- so popular ballad from "Roberta," of Kern, this ballad, that torch -- a torch song, if That's right. [Sings]. It's an amazing one "You Took Advantage of Me." [Music fading] We hear, then, June Christy. That's a world, Studs, that's a world that is gone, and it, and it's not because it's the past because it was a happy world, it was a kind of a suggestive world without, you know, revealing all, and it was all gloriously sentimental. You know, we could talk about something sociological for a moment. I'm thinking of Alec Wilder whom I remember for many ye-- and who also has memories of the Depression, "Hard Times." You're speaking of another world now -- Another world. That is less -- it was also of a nightclub world, people were out to three, four in the morning -- That's What I call a two o'clock in the morning-type voice, that was June Christy -- That's right. She has, woman we're about to hear, Lee Wiley -- There were dreams in those days. But there was also something else involved, wasn't there, there was another kind of life being lived that's no longer lived in that manner. We're not talking about rock now, we're not about music -- we're talking about the very nature rock may reflect the change, possibly. Relevance wasn't in then. [laughter] This is Wilder's editorial comment. Oh, I'll give up. "I've Got Five Dollars," Oh, Of
Alec Wilder That's another early song, I remember making an arrangement of that many years ago for Jimmy Carroll, he had a band that never got anywhere, but I remember a beautifully constructed song, by the way, and another another marvelous piece of lyric writing by Mr. Hart. And it was one of the very earliest songs, but notice always this extraordinary verve and patina or or special virtue that the Rodgers songs had with with Mr. Hart, and only a few -- for me, that is, this is all obviously opinion, it started to leave very quickly with Mr. Hammerstein, that that, that that chance-taking, that that kind of innovation -- I'm I grant you, that the world changed and maybe the audience changes, they wanted another kind of song, they wanted to climb all the mountains and be significant, but the dream went out!
Harry Bouras Another thing, but what happened is it went from Astaire.
Alec Wilder Yeah.
Harry Bouras Fred Astaire and the top hat and the tails, dancing with the milkman, you know, at four in the morning, to Agnes de Mille
Harry Bouras Leaping around in the cornfield
Studs Terkel -- You're talking about "Oklahoma," that changed [to place?]
Studs Terkel But also you're also talking about World War Two, too, aren't you? The impact of that.
Alec Wilder It's the, it's the loss of the aristocratic dream in America, that's what I
Studs Terkel Isn't that's something else that comes to my mind as both Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras are talking, that basically pop songs deal with fantasy? Fantasy, rather than reality. Folk songs deal with reality, or blues deal with reality, but but pop songs deal with fantasy.
Harry Bouras Oh I remember, I remember a fantasy line in a song that said, "We'll settle down in Dallas in a little plastic palace. It's not as crazy as you think." Do you remember that?
Studs Terkel [Nineteen?] thirty-one. Thirty-one, depths of the Depression, two years after the crash, and someone two o'clock in the morning when the clubs said Wilder, described so beautifully with the speak and everything, and he see -- I remember Wilder saying, "The girls even looked more beautiful!" [laughter]
Alec Wilder They did, they did indeed.
Studs Terkel "I've Got Five Dollars," Lee Wi-- it's a scratch, an old 78, you'll hear the scratch I'm sure. [Music fading] That's a hard one to turn off there. There again the example of the lyrics you were talking about.
Alec Wilder And
Harry Bouras And the verse. What was that thing? "As, as crabby as a shellfish"?
Alec Wilder "Shellfish," to rhyme with "selfish."
Harry Bouras To rhyme later on with, with "selfish," but the the crab and the shellfish
Alec Wilder I know, that's -- Mr. Hart!
Studs Terkel We'll take a slight break for a moment. Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras, my guests on this three-part program based upon Alec Wilder's book, "American Popular Song: The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," Oxford University Press. It's [received?] by the way, some very enthusiastic comments indeed from jazz observers and pop music observers and classic composers to kind of like Milton Babbitt among others, we'll return in a moment. We'll continue with Rodgers and Hart and then Rodgers/Hammerstein and one of the songs that all girls singers sing, perhaps too much, because the "Little Girl Blue" and like "Funny Valentine" so popular among the, the two o'clock in the morning ballads. In a moment we'll continue this conversation and journey. [pause] Resuming it now with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras, and Rogers we're talking about, aren't we, working with Hart. Now we come to "Little Girl Blue."
Alec Wilder Oh, a lovely song. That was in "Jumbo," wasn't it?
Studs Terkel Well, why "Little Girl" -- why this one, and "My Funny Valentine"?
Alec Wilder It's a very strange shape, this one. Well, "Funny Valentine" I'll tell you a story. Jacoby, who ran "The Blue Angel" in New York, a nightclub, a very good one, put into the contract of all the singers who came to work there after a while, it says, that they were not allowed to sing "My Funny Valentine," because that was automatic that they'd sing it, and it was just done so much that that went into their contract. You
Harry Bouras You know why they're sung so much. Both those songs. It's because they create instantaneous character for the singer.
Harry Bouras You know, you you get a little girl on there, or the little man dressed up as a little girl or whatever the case may be, and he starts to sing, she starts to sing this song, and immediately, you know, you have great sympathy-
Harry Bouras -and it's focused in and her whole life is apparent through the, through the lyrics and the the song itself, and it's the easiest road to character in all of the songs around that I know.
Alec Wilder That's right. It's instant.
Harry Bouras Put it in a cup with some hot water-
Studs Terkel Yeah.
Harry Bouras -and you're someone.
Harry Bouras And that's why they like it.
Studs Terkel Here's one of the interpreters
Harry Bouras Mabel Mercer, I hope.
Studs Terkel Yeah, one of Wilder's favorites.
Alec Wilder Yeah.
Harry Bouras Right!
Studs Terkel Here's Mabel Mercer, who also sings Wilder songs beautifully, too. Here then, her "Little Girl" -- a part of her "Little Girl Blue." [Music fading] I suppose she in a sense Mercer is an ideal interpreter of a song like this.
Alec Wilder Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. I always -- you know, because she is not a jazz singer, some people decry her, her interpretations. I don't, because she, she gives more respect to the, to the song itself and probably principally to the lyric. I, I -- for me, she's the greatest performer, and I think I wrote some liner notes for something about, said something about the fact she was the keeper of the keys, because she -- this lady has sung songs which were out of fashion, which were thrown out of shows. She's -- I know many songs which would not be standards today without her having continued to sing them, because people to come in to listen to her, and
Harry Bouras Picked them up from her, like Sinatra people like that would
Studs Terkel You know, back to this theme if we can of the lyricist and the composer, a perfect example Alec points out on page 204, in a lesser-known song, "I Wish I Were in Love Again," from a 1937 "Babes in Arms," and you point out let me say the melody from verse through the end, Wilder and his book, "American Popular Song," "is a perfect set of notes for the lyric. This is even strong enough to sustain itself as an instrumental piece, but once you've heard the lyric, your attention must be drawn toward the word." So this is the song [as against a piece of music].
Alec Wilder Right.
Studs Terkel Here's a perfect case of
Alec Wilder And I, I, am rather proud of myself, I got Mr. Sinatra to record it. He'd never heard it, and I said, "If you do it, two choruses, please. Two sets of lyrics." And he did, and it's worthy.
Studs Terkel I think this is Fitzgerald I think doing it. [Music fading] That's a perfect case in point. Alec would say, "Let it ride, let it ride," because we're here, we're conscious of the words, aren't we?
Harry Bouras "The finest meeting of a him and her."
Alec Wilder And in the second chorus he says, "The self-deception that believes the lie."
Harry Bouras "When love congeals it, leaves the faint aroma of perfom-performing
Harry Bouras Occurs a little bit later on.
Studs Terkel See, now we came to the unique aspect Alec Wilder, who who is a man has his own opinions, and indeed may be biased, too, but these are his opinions expressing [lighter strike] and, without stacking the cards, now we switch to Hammerstein and let's "Oklahoma," "Oh, what a --" which would be, let's say the, archetypal song with "Oh, what a beautiful morning" with Alfred Drake, an excellent theater singer and actor/singer, now -- what is it about -- what is the difference now? What as far as Rodgers
Alec Wilder Everything got safer. Everything got safer. Everything got packaged. Emotion was gussied up and I'm -- I shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but I, I used to refer to Mr. Hammerstein as a suburban liberal, and I feel this kind of -- I felt anguish and chance-taking and misery and reaching the quest was always there in Mr. Hart. You felt it was in his life and his writing. This gentleman you felt was sitting by -- in a rather comfortable house writing about loss, and it doesn't work. Climbing mountains, but he was only -- yeah, go ahead.
Harry Bouras Let me add another thing to it, and there's really a very great [crinkling noise] compliment implicit in all of this to Richard Rodgers, though, and that is he is the most supportive composer in the world
Harry Bouras Because as the contents become banal
Alec Wilder Yep.
Harry Bouras Which is really what it is, Rodgers' musical material becomes banal. It becomes immediate, it becomes -- the intervals are not stretched, it becomes a little pompous, a little mock-heroic and so on.
Alec Wilder That's right. [Music fading] Like this.
Studs Terkel And so the show opened. This case in point.
Alec Wilder This open I think it was quite -- a precedent. I think the, the whole show that literally walked on singing this, didn't he? And that's all right. That's fine. I don't put this song down because this isn't -- he hasn't reached the mountain climbing and the "I Walk Alone," and kind of almost Brahmsian.
Studs Terkel This was almost a certain moment, too, wasn't it? It was during World War
Alec Wilder And you had to cheer people up and you had to meet-- oh, you had to get back to the real American, too, remember that. To that, that hypothetical American
Harry Bouras The "Bloomer Girl" American, that kind of
Studs Terkel -- This leads to one of the, not a biting passage of Alec Wilder here, but a very observant one of Cole Porter. Now we come to Cole Porter, both lyrics and music, and you speak of the world-weariness of his lyrics and come back to the Lorenz Hart earlier, a comment Wilder makes here is interesting, "Hart's lyrics are more vulnerable," again more chance-taking
Alec Wilder No more chance-taking thing. Well, I know that -- I, somebody read to me over the phone of some review of this book in I think it was "The New Yorker" in which the reviewer said that, quoted me as saying that Mr. Porter was known more for his lyrics than his music, and he said that would be a surprise to a great many people, as if I were totally wrong. Well, all through my life whenever I've mentioned Porter, they immediately say, "How about those lyrics?" I'm not putting down his tunes, because he wrote some great tunes, but the, the recognition by the layman is the lyrics, and they are brilliant. There's no doubt about
Studs Terkel it. Well, what better example, say, than "Let's Do it"?
Alec Wilder Oh, that's a very neat little twister. [Music fading]
Studs Terkel Immediately we think of the words, don't we, here?
Alec Wilder Of course, and the list. And his marvelous
Studs Terkel Oh, you talk about lists, we'll comes to his classic and that in a moment, but
Harry Bouras But Cole Porter was a great -- Alec, maybe you should -- but he was just a great maker of lists, and
Alec Wilder "You're the Top" was another list song, he
Harry Bouras "You're the top, you're the Eiffel Tower," you're the this, you're the that, you're the this, you're the that, and it goes on and on and on, but you know, we, we left out and I've got to just mention it, so everybody knows, this is a song that has "Electric eels do it, even though, even though it shocks them, I know."
Alec Wilder I know, that's right. Very neat. Very neat. But he's so urbane
Studs Terkel "Even though it shocks them, I know."
Alec Wilder Right. And so -- I guess cynical.
Harry Bouras Well, they're very hard. I have never found, there's no -- I don't
Alec Wilder [Unintelligible]
Harry Bouras Cole Porter tender lyrics, I mean loving lrics, and no one ever sings him so he wraps around, you know. Like when we heard the Rodgers and Hart things and when we hear Arlen later on, the song, the singer can come out and wrap around you and take you in her arms and make you say-
Alec Wilder That's
Harry Bouras -and, and, and cuddle you and make the world
Harry Bouras You can't do it with "Night and Day" and you can't -- which his -- or "Begin the Beguine," the torrid passion and
Harry Bouras -which is a little Valentino-esque, I think, and brittle like that
Harry Bouras -- [A lot of air?]!
Alec Wilder There were a few. "You'd Be So Easy to Love" is a very tender
Studs Terkel Of course, I suppose too, it's hard, isn't it? Alec and Harry, to separate Cole Porter's own life, too, from the lyrics
Harry Bouras Exactly!
Studs Terkel He lived among the then "jet set," the most beautiful quote unquote
Studs Terkel And very rich and so that probably played a role, too, the weariness
Alec Wilder Of course, it did. They could, you know, he could have been a dilettante.
Harry Bouras Well, I think he was haunted by the idea of being a dilettante, he brought it up often enough when he was talking
Alec Wilder Well, he did. He did, I didn't
Studs Terkel -- And isn't -- it isn't accidental the, too, that one of the most effective all singers of certain Porter lyrics is someone who's very brassiest, Ethel Merman. I'm thinking of "Anything Goes" and "I Get a Kick Out of, I Get a Kick Out of You."
Alec Wilder Well, that's a remarkable song. I think it's -- I I can only say because I -- you know, when you arrange a song for band, you get to know it even better. And it's, it's a beautifully put together song. No doubt of it. I believe the lyrics were changed from the production for records. "I get a kick from cocaine" I think was the original.
Harry Bouras I think it's, it's back in now, because
Alec Wilder Cocaine is so chic now.
Harry Bouras But it's, again it's a list song. "I get no kick out of this," out of this, out of this, out of this, "but I do get a kick out of you."
Studs Terkel Here's a, here's a Wilder comment on page 238, Alec Wilder's comment. This is very good, about "I Get a Kick Out of You," "a very good essentially simple song, in spite of its half-note triplets, but is almost always the case with Porter songs, it is popular as much for its lyric as for its melody." [Music fading] And so it builds, the list. It's almost in a sense almost Koko of "Mikado" in a sense
Alec Wilder That's
Studs Terkel His own list [is listed?]. So we have to come to the top list song of all, and that's "You're the Top." Of course, "you're the
Alec Wilder That's the great list. I remember one time a ridiculous -- or you want to let it go?
Studs Terkel No, no, go ahead.
Alec Wilder No, it's just a little story about Mr. Benchley. I'd met him one night and there was a little alcohol involved. And I the next morning I found that I had a check stub that was made out to Peter Rabbit the Third, and I couldn't remember who that could possibly have been. [laughter] I called quite a few people, and I suddenly went, "My Lord, it's Benchley," and I called him up and I said, "I've no money in the bank and I think you're Peter Rabbit the Third," he said, "Maybe, I don't know. It's -- I'm feeling horrible." And I went over to his room across the street in the Royalton where you stay, and he was sleeping in a closet as I remember. [laughter] In the living room was a table about 20 feet long and ten feet wide, and that -- not one inch of it was empty. It was all bottles, and he just got up and I don't think he said "Hello," and just poured indiscriminately from bottles and handed me a glass. And then walked like a sleepwalker to another closet, opened it, put a needle down and played, he said, "This is the greatest thing that's ever happened to me in my life," and that's the first time I ever heard "You're the Top."
Harry Bouras Let me add -- listen, the audience should listen to the things that
Harry Bouras He paired with, is they're all international. I mean, he doesn't want it to be a national thing at all.
Harry Bouras It's it's the Scott Fitzgerald traveling, bouncing around world.
Studs Terkel [Music fading] And so there's the perfect case of the build, even though that's not quite the quality of Ethel Merman singing, that's Mary Martin
Harry Bouras I have to use my line, that's, that's singing Helen Hayes.
Studs Terkel Singing Helen Hayes, but again, the build, the build here, the references.
Alec Wilder Oh, they're remarkable!
Studs Terkel But he doesn't -- you said something he doesn't have, and that's one -- that which another one of your favorite pop composers and theater -- for theater music, was Harold Arlen.
Alec Wilder Oh,
Studs Terkel But what Arlen? There's a chapter here, seven, of Alec Wilder's book, Harold Arlen.
Alec Wilder Well, yeah. I remember when I first started writing, I tried to write songs for years, but I didn't have much faith in myself and strangely enough until I heard an Arlen song, and I thought, if that's the way it can go, I'll try again, because that's where I want to be. And I never achieved it, but he gave me an enormous enthusiasm for going on writing because his point of view is -- you talk about vulnerability -- and total, almost nakedness. I mean, he, his tunes are all that he has to say on any given sentimental subject. And of course, his, the sinuosity of his phrases, the, the, the warmth, and by the way, he was a man who arranged. He knew the orchestra, he knew the whole scene. He wasn't just a fellow who sat in a, in a Brill Building office and knocked off a tune, he
Studs Terkel Point out the Brill Building is a Tin Pan Alley place in New York.
Alec Wilder That -- and he was always up -- he, I'll tell you a curious thing about him. When I started to talk to him about his songs, I didn't realize that he considers his early songs, which came out as pop songs I thought, had all been in some kind of production, so that he didn't feel that he was a pop songwriter at all. I -- for example, "The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" to me is a pop song. "I've Got a Right to Sing the Blues" is a pop song, but evidently all these songs had, had been introduced in some form of nightclub show or some theatrical.
Studs Terkel There's an interesting passage here by Alec Wilder, Harry, about Harold Arlen. "He more than any of his contemporaries plunged himself into the heartbeat of the popular music of his youth, the dance band." And also he sang in his father's choir. I think his father was a cantor.
Studs Terkel Though the improvisational era, and he goes on, "He wasn't interested in hits, but quality of songs," he, his conversation with Alec Wilder here. and then, "Unlike Irving Berlin, who forged ahead in the days when there wasn't a great deal to get excited about, Arlen, my hunch tells me," writes Alec Wilder, "might never become a songwriter had he grown up in those roiling but to him tepid times." So his were [lighter strike]the, here then he grew into the the Depression times, the exciting, the battling.
Alec Wilder And not only that, in the more sophisticated times, because the arrangers had come to listen to, to legitimate composers and realized that harmony, for example, was much more complex than they had any idea of, and he began, because he was very concerned with the bands, and he was listening, and he picked up on all that sophistication, although I don't think he ever studied. I'm not sure about that. But he, he absorbed from those who had gleaned a great deal of sophistication from, from Ravel, particularly.
Studs Terkel Harry's I thought you had -- suppose we end this hour with a thought of yours, perhaps, with Arlen, "I Got a Right To Sing the Blues," and then the third program, of course, will concern Arlen and "Over the Rainbow," [unintelligible] with Yip Harburg, a marvelous lyricist, with "Stormy Weather" and Ethel Waters and others, and continue to other writers, then, ending with Wilder. I think we've got to end with Wilder. But back to Arlen. You have a thought about that, Harry?
Harry Bouras Well, Arlen is is not as apparent a master songwriter today as [match strike] strike he should be, even though not many of them are known, but he's not apparent because a lot of his original material was very Black.
Harry Bouras And it was drawn directly out of his Harlem experiences, which were very, very profound for him and that he loved. And he was very -- he used the Black vernacular so that these songs written by a white writer today, which are very Black songs, with with "dat" and and "dems" and Black eyes shining to please, lips -- these these things that were used and were immediately absorbed by performers in Harlem cannot be sung today in a funny -- we'll wait for a happier, more successfully integrated time when they can reemerge. But a lot of Arlen for this reason is submerged. Don't you agree, Alec?
Alec Wilder Right, and I would say that I would rather he had written "Porgy and Bess."
Harry Bouras For he was the man to do it. "Porgy and Bess" is a good job.
Alec Wilder Yet, Gershwin was his hero.
Studs Terkel I suppose then, part two of this three-part series, with Alec Wilder and Harry Bouras, ends with passages of Billie Holiday, again,
Alec Wilder All right. We'll see if she sings the tune this time.
Studs Terkel Here this time, "I've Got a Right to Sing the Blues," and this is, this series of three programs is based upon Alec Wilder's book, "American Popular Song," that's really a compendium of, you might say of, what's happened to our country through pop music. We see the observer at work, and the subtitle "The Great Innovators, 1900 to 1950," and Oxford Press the publishers, and Arlen, as end of part two, "Right to Sing the Blues."
