Interview with Stuart Gordon, Carolyn Purdy-Gordon, Richard Fire and Gary Houston

Studs Terkel Now, one of the most imaginative theaters in Chicago for a number of years now has been the Organic Theater, and way back you know, Stuart Gordon, the founding director of it and still directing it, and his colleagues, who write as well as direct. To explain that you may recall Bleacher Bums, that was so celebrated and so funny and so accurate, a number of members of the cast, including Stuart Gordon and his wife, you might say co-author, Carolyn Purdy-Gordon, and two of his colleagues, Gary Houston and Richard Fire are around the microphone now, and they're part of a play called E/R Emergency Room. Emergency room, that is so much a part of Chicago's nightlife scene, particularly in hospitals where things happen. And what they did is the story of this discussion, this roundtable we'll have. E/R, which has received very enthusiastic reviews from critics as well as audiences, been running now for 6 months at the Organic Theater. And we'll get the address in a moment. And it's- it's a cooperative project, and 4 of the creative spirits and their- their colleagues too, are round and about, and it makes terribly exciting theater, and it's part of the tradition of Organic. It's organic.

Stuart Gordon It certainly is.

Studs Terkel So in a moment my guests and E/R, after this message. [Pause in recording] Where do we begin? Stuart, when the group itself came to be, this was kind of the spirit of it, wasn't it?

Stuart Gordon To create new work, yes.

Studs Terkel New-

Stuart Gordon We're dedicated to exclusively new work.

Studs Terkel I'm thinking that some of the past works that have been- for which there was more [celebrated?], Warp, for one, Huck Finn-

Stuart Gordon Right.

Studs Terkel -for another, what is the- how would you describe your- if there's a phrase or a way to describe your approach to theater?

Stuart Gordon Well, I think we are always trying to- to excite and surprise. I think surprise is kind of a key word. To do plays that no one else would think about doing, and to create the plays that our audiences really want to see. We will do plays that are specifically about our audiences on many occasions, such as "Bleacher Bums," which was about, you know, the Chicago sports fans, "Cops," which is about the Chicago policemen, "Sexual Perversity in Chicago," which was about the swinging Rush Street scene. And so-

Studs Terkel That was one of the earliest of David Mamet plays,

Stuart Gordon It was the very first-

Studs Terkel Very first, mmhmm.

Stuart Gordon -professional production of his work, and E/R was- it seemed like a natural. A friend of mine, Dr. Ron Berman, came to me. He was working in an ER, and he came to me with all of these stories. You know, he'd sit around and we would just talk about some of the insane things that would happen to him. I couldn't believe that they were real. And eventually, he went so far as to just make a tape of all of the best stories and I played it for the company and the company was very excited about the idea. And so for about a year, we all began to go to emergency rooms as observers and to interview doctors and nurses to find out as much as possible about that scene.

Studs Terkel And you went there. Well, Carolyn, you- I know you've been with the company here in its very beginning. Carolyn Purdy-Gordon-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Right.

Studs Terkel -and E/R, let's talk about E/R. This is the play now at the- by the way, the theater, it's a very good little sort of three-quarters round, on- what's the address again?

Stuart Gordon It's 3319 North Clark.

Richard Fire -19

Studs Terkel North Clark. But E/R Emergency Room, that's a phrase used by, I suppose, doctors and nurses,

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Right. Well, Ron Berman said if we had any interest in making his recollections into a play, that we, first of all, had to lock up the title E/R. He thought it was a natural and we've stuck with it ever since.

Studs Terkel Now we come to not simply being actors but being observers of the actual scene as well. Gary, of course, Gary's been an excellent journalist in town, has worked in the theater section, the [theater-book?] section Sun-Times for a number of years, and became an actor-director. So, now more than actors, you've, you four and I believe-

Stuart Gordon There's an additional

Studs Terkel -several more of your colleagues did something else. What was that?

Richard Fire Well, we got a skeletal idea of what we wanted to do, sort of a scenario, a rough idea of the sequence of cases that flow into the emergency room, sort of a "Grand Hotel" kind of play if you think of it that way. And then after that, each segment was committed to an improvisation. Just a few of us around a tape recorder enacting what we think the scene was supposed to be like given the characters, and given the expertise of Dr. Ron Berman who was with us. And after it was taped it was transcribed, after it was transcribed it was edited, after it was edited each segment was put together and it became a script.

Studs Terkel Richard Fire, you're one of the better actors in town-

Richard Fire Thank you.

Studs Terkel -you're playing, you and Gary play the two doctors, young doctors who, early in your career are here in the emergency- that's where doctors are a lot, aren't

Stuart Gordon Everybody goes through the emergency room, yes.

Gary Houston Youngish doctors.

Richard Fire He's the sincere one, and I'm sort of the- well, it's not really my full-time job, you know? I have a separate ENT practice, and I'm just moonlighting-

Studs Terkel ENT?

Richard Fire Ear, nose, and throat. I'm just kind of moonlighting 'cause I need a little extra money. And this indeed reflect- Gary, on the other hand, plays a doc who is an ER specialist. This is a new specialty. It's about 10 years old.

Stuart Gordon It's less than that, two years, actually.

Richard Fire Well-

Gary Houston It's emerging.

Richard Fire Emerging. Okay. And his attitude as to how the shop should be run and my attitude about how the shop should be run come into conflict.

Studs Terkel That is the- that is one of the techs of, [is that right?], but throughout, something is happening that is suddenly reality. We watch it, the audience does [and says?], this is incredible because we know it's true.

Stuart Gordon All the stories

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Everyone's been to an emergency room, virtually, you know? So we're attracting people both who work in them and who have gone to them.

Studs Terkel Now, where did you go? Now, you 4 and 2 more of your colleagues-

Stuart Gordon 4 more. There are 8 people

Studs Terkel together. 4 more, who are also in the cast-

Stuart Gordon Right, in the company.

Studs Terkel They went- where did you go? Why don't you to describe the scene.

Stuart Gordon We went to several emergency rooms, we went to Northwestern, we went to Illinois Masonic, Henrotin, Cook County. We really, I think-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Grant.

Stuart Gordon Grant. We checked-

Gary Houston Evanston.

Stuart Gordon -in Evanston. We checked about just about every emergency room in the city.

Studs Terkel So they came out- so the people there, at the emergency's, came out of neighborhoods, ethnic neighborhoods-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel -Black, Latino, poor whites, Appalachians.

Stuart Gordon We wanted to settle in an urban situation.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Stuart Gordon And it is true that the thing about the emergency room is so great that you get this total cross-section-

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Stuart Gordon -of the population. Everybody from the very poor to the very rich comes into that emergency room at some point in the evening.

Studs Terkel So you- you- you watched the scene, you watched what was happening. When did you go? On Fri- Friday nights?

Richard Fire We got to put on coats, you know, blue doctor coats, and follow-

Studs Terkel Oh!

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Lab coats

Richard Fire -lab coats, and follow doctors around. I did a 6-hour shift. We all did, in various- I tell you the truth, I was so impressed with- you know, people criticize doctors for being arrogant or having attitudes, but especially in an emergency room situation, they're coming to you, it's life and death. You have to figure out what's wrong and then figure out how to treat it. And there's no, you know, you can't call in sick. I mean it's right there, you can't even take, you know, really, you can't take an hour off to think about it, you've got to deal with it right there.

Stuart Gordon We didn't go in as a group. We went in in ones and twos, and then we'd just accomp- each one would accompany a doctor or a nurse and just kind of shadow them through their entire rounds.

Studs Terkel Ah, so you would- you were

Unidentified Male Voice Mmhmm.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Oh,

Studs Terkel So, you had the white coats on, so they thought you were a part of the staff.

Richard Fire Yes.

Studs Terkel The people came

Stuart Gordon My initial experience, as a matter-of-fact, was-

Unidentified Male Voice [Laughing]

Stuart Gordon -with a drunk, which many are treated in emergency rooms, who grabbed me in this vice-like grip and said, "Doc, Doc, you got to help me, Doc! I want to kill!" [laughing]. I said, "you should talk to this man over

Unidentified Male Voice [Wheezy laughing]

Studs Terkel I mean, what makes it so good, the performer- the production, is that you're doing- you're not simply studying a role from a script, you actually were there-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel -and the role emerged because of your experience-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel -being there.

Gary Houston Yeah, you soak up a lot, it's like osmosis, and it was very valuable. As a matter of fact, I have to admit that the shifts that I visited, not much exciting happened during it. We didn't- I just happen to come into some pretty boring shifts, but the advantage of that was just to soak up the professional atmosphere, I guess.

Studs Terkel And before- pick up on something that Richard Fire said, you know, suddenly you realize how much work there is to be done. The doctors, the nurses. How, life and death, you know, overwhelms you so much [unintelligible]. Before that, did you say you use a tape recorder?

Stuart Gordon Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel How is that? So-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Those were to tape interviews where we- most of us knew at least one if not several doctors and nurses who have had emergency room experience. And so we invited them to come to the theater and one by one and we taped interviews with them at our theater, as well as doing this fieldwork.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon We never took a tape recorder into the hospitals.

Richard Fire But we also use a tapere- the way we actually get the scripts is after we do all this research and decide who's, you know, what is going to happen in the particular scene, we take parts in it and we improvise-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon And tape that.

Richard Fire -and that's how we get the first-

Unidentified Male Voice Yeah.

Richard Fire -script.

Studs Terkel So, the impulse comes from the actual words?

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Mmhmm. Oh, definitely.

Studs Terkel And then you take off and improvise on that?

Stuart Gordon For sure, and all of the stories that are portrayed in E/R, as crazy as some of them may be, are all true.

Studs Terkel Oh, yeah. Suppose we- because- let's pick up on something that Richard said a moment ago about the work, these are heroes and heroines, unsung heroes and heroines, the docs and the nurses and the attendants who

Stuart Gordon I don't know if I would go that far. I mean, I think that sometimes they are, that they are- heroics or called for many times. But what we try to show in E/R is that they're just people, that they are not- that they make mistakes, but they're not gods in white coats and that they're capable of having mistakes and judgment and [lighter flicking] all kinds of things, and being insensitive to the problems of the patients that come through there. We wanted to really give an accurate picture of the good and the bad side of the emergency room.

Richard Fire They're very human heroes. They're heroes-

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Richard Fire -but they're human beings.

Studs Terkel Well, I think about the overwhelming pressures, the stuff that comes in, and then we come back to the state of medicine, too without meaning to, it's a commentary on that. We could not- and that's one of those scenes, someone dies because the surgery crew could not be there

Gary Houston That's one of the factors, yeah. Although, I think it's also sort of implicit in the play that even if they had arrived, that the two men that we lost would be goners anyway because they were pretty far gone down the line.

Stuart Gordon The save rate in life-threatening situations in an emergency room is less than 20%.

Studs Terkel The save rate-

Stuart Gordon That's right.

Studs Terkel

Stuart Gordon Now, one of the most imaginative theaters in Chicago for a number of years now has been the Organic Theater, and way back you know, Stuart Gordon, the founding director of it and still directing it, and his colleagues, who write as well as direct. To explain that you may recall Bleacher Bums, that was so celebrated and so funny and so accurate, a number of members of the cast, including Stuart Gordon and his wife, you might say co-author, Carolyn Purdy-Gordon, and two of his colleagues, Gary Houston and Richard Fire are around the microphone now, and they're part of a play called E/R Emergency Room. Emergency room, that is so much a part of Chicago's nightlife scene, particularly in hospitals where things happen. And what they did is the story of this discussion, this roundtable we'll have. E/R, which has received very enthusiastic reviews from critics as well as audiences, been running now for 6 months at the Organic Theater. And we'll get the address in a moment. And it's- it's a cooperative project, and 4 of the creative spirits and their- their colleagues too, are round and about, and it makes terribly exciting theater, and it's part of the tradition of Organic. It's organic. It certainly is. So in a moment my guests and E/R, after this message. [Pause in recording] Where do we begin? Stuart, when the group itself came to be, this was kind of the spirit of it, wasn't it? To create new work, yes. New- We're dedicated to exclusively new work. I'm thinking that some of the past works that have been- for which there was more [celebrated?], Warp, for one, Huck Finn- Right. -for another, what is the- how would you describe your- if there's a phrase or a way to describe your approach to theater? Well, I think we are always trying to- to excite and surprise. I think surprise is kind of a key word. To do plays that no one else would think about doing, and to create the plays that our audiences really want to see. We will do plays that are specifically about our audiences on many occasions, such as "Bleacher Bums," which was about, you know, the Chicago sports fans, "Cops," which is about the Chicago policemen, "Sexual Perversity in Chicago," which was about the swinging Rush Street scene. And so- That was one of the earliest of David Mamet plays, wasn't It was the very first- Very first, mmhmm. -professional production of his work, and E/R was- it seemed like a natural. A friend of mine, Dr. Ron Berman, came to me. He was working in an ER, and he came to me with all of these stories. You know, he'd sit around and we would just talk about some of the insane things that would happen to him. I couldn't believe that they were real. And eventually, he went so far as to just make a tape of all of the best stories and I played it for the company and the company was very excited about the idea. And so for about a year, we all began to go to emergency rooms as observers and to interview doctors and nurses to find out as much as possible about that scene. And you went there. Well, Carolyn, you- I know you've been with the company here in its very beginning. Carolyn Purdy-Gordon- Right. -and E/R, let's talk about E/R. This is the play now at the- by the way, the theater, it's a very good little sort of three-quarters round, on- what's the address again? It's 3319 North Clark. -19 North Clark. But E/R Emergency Room, that's a phrase used by, I suppose, doctors and nurses, isn't Right. Well, Ron Berman said if we had any interest in making his recollections into a play, that we, first of all, had to lock up the title E/R. He thought it was a natural and we've stuck with it ever since. Now we come to not simply being actors but being observers of the actual scene as well. Gary, of course, Gary's been an excellent journalist in town, has worked in the theater section, the [theater-book?] section Sun-Times for a number of years, and became an actor-director. So, now more than actors, you've, you four and I believe- There's an additional -several more of your colleagues did something else. What was that? Well, we got a skeletal idea of what we wanted to do, sort of a scenario, a rough idea of the sequence of cases that flow into the emergency room, sort of a "Grand Hotel" kind of play if you think of it that way. And then after that, each segment was committed to an improvisation. Just a few of us around a tape recorder enacting what we think the scene was supposed to be like given the characters, and given the expertise of Dr. Ron Berman who was with us. And after it was taped it was transcribed, after it was transcribed it was edited, after it was edited each segment was put together and it became a script. Richard Fire, you're one of the better actors in town- Thank you. -you're playing, you and Gary play the two doctors, young doctors who, early in your career are here in the emergency- that's where doctors are a lot, aren't they? Everybody goes through the emergency room, yes. Youngish doctors. He's the sincere one, and I'm sort of the- well, it's not really my full-time job, you know? I have a separate ENT practice, and I'm just moonlighting- ENT? Ear, nose, and throat. I'm just kind of moonlighting 'cause I need a little extra money. And this indeed reflect- Gary, on the other hand, plays a doc who is an ER specialist. This is a new specialty. It's about 10 years old. It's less than that, two years, actually. Well- It's emerging. Emerging. Okay. And his attitude as to how the shop should be run and my attitude about how the shop should be run come into conflict. That is the- that is one of the techs of, [is that right?], but throughout, something is happening that is suddenly reality. We watch it, the audience does [and says?], this is incredible because we know it's true. All the stories are Everyone's been to an emergency room, virtually, you know? So we're attracting people both who work in them and who have gone to them. Now, where did you go? Now, you 4 and 2 more of your colleagues- 4 more. There are 8 people together. 4 more, who are also in the cast- Right, in the company. They went- where did you go? Why don't you to describe the scene. We went to several emergency rooms, we went to Northwestern, we went to Illinois Masonic, Henrotin, Cook County. We really, I think- Grant. Grant. We checked- Evanston. -in Evanston. We checked about just about every emergency room in the city. So they came out- so the people there, at the emergency's, came out of neighborhoods, ethnic neighborhoods- Mmhmm. -Black, Latino, poor whites, Appalachians. We wanted to settle in an urban situation. Yeah. And it is true that the thing about the emergency room is so great that you get this total cross-section- Yeah. -of the population. Everybody from the very poor to the very rich comes into that emergency room at some point in the evening. So you- you- you watched the scene, you watched what was happening. When did you go? On Fri- Friday nights? We got to put on coats, you know, blue doctor coats, and follow- Oh! Lab coats [laughs]. -lab coats, and follow doctors around. I did a 6-hour shift. We all did, in various- I tell you the truth, I was so impressed with- you know, people criticize doctors for being arrogant or having attitudes, but especially in an emergency room situation, they're coming to you, it's life and death. You have to figure out what's wrong and then figure out how to treat it. And there's no, you know, you can't call in sick. I mean it's right there, you can't even take, you know, really, you can't take an hour off to think about it, you've got to deal with it right there. We didn't go in as a group. We went in in ones and twos, and then we'd just accomp- each one would accompany a doctor or a nurse and just kind of shadow them through their entire rounds. Ah, so you would- you were inconspicuous. Mmhmm. Oh, So, you had the white coats on, so they thought you were a part of the staff. Yes. The people came out- My initial experience, as a matter-of-fact, was- [Laughing] -with a drunk, which many are treated in emergency rooms, who grabbed me in this vice-like grip and said, "Doc, Doc, you got to help me, Doc! I want to kill!" [laughing]. I said, "you should talk to this man over here." [Wheezy laughing] I mean, what makes it so good, the performer- the production, is that you're doing- you're not simply studying a role from a script, you actually were there- Mmhmm. -and the role emerged because of your experience- Mmhmm. -being there. Yeah, you soak up a lot, it's like osmosis, and it was very valuable. As a matter of fact, I have to admit that the shifts that I visited, not much exciting happened during it. We didn't- I just happen to come into some pretty boring shifts, but the advantage of that was just to soak up the professional atmosphere, I guess. And before- pick up on something that Richard Fire said, you know, suddenly you realize how much work there is to be done. The doctors, the nurses. How, life and death, you know, overwhelms you so much [unintelligible]. Before that, did you say you use a tape recorder? Mmhmm. How is that? So- Those were to tape interviews where we- most of us knew at least one if not several doctors and nurses who have had emergency room experience. And so we invited them to come to the theater and one by one and we taped interviews with them at our theater, as well as doing this fieldwork. Yeah. We never took a tape recorder into the hospitals. But we also use a tapere- the way we actually get the scripts is after we do all this research and decide who's, you know, what is going to happen in the particular scene, we take parts in it and we improvise- And tape that. -and that's how we get the first- Yeah. -script. So, the impulse comes from the actual words? Mmhmm. Oh, definitely. And then you take off and improvise on that? For sure, and all of the stories that are portrayed in E/R, as crazy as some of them may be, are all true. Oh, yeah. Suppose we- because- let's pick up on something that Richard said a moment ago about the work, these are heroes and heroines, unsung heroes and heroines, the docs and the nurses and the attendants who were I don't know if I would go that far. I mean, I think that sometimes they are, that they are- heroics or called for many times. But what we try to show in E/R is that they're just people, that they are not- that they make mistakes, but they're not gods in white coats and that they're capable of having mistakes and judgment and [lighter flicking] all kinds of things, and being insensitive to the problems of the patients that come through there. We wanted to really give an accurate picture of the good and the bad side of the emergency room. They're very human heroes. They're heroes- Yeah. -but they're human beings. Well, I think about the overwhelming pressures, the stuff that comes in, and then we come back to the state of medicine, too without meaning to, it's a commentary on that. We could not- and that's one of those scenes, someone dies because the surgery crew could not be there on That's one of the factors, yeah. Although, I think it's also sort of implicit in the play that even if they had arrived, that the two men that we lost would be goners anyway because they were pretty far gone down the line. The save rate in life-threatening situations in an emergency room is less than 20%. The save rate- That's right. -is That's [Laughs] [Laughs] [Unintelliglbe] [Laughs] Sure. [Laughs] Right. Right. Right, [Laughs] [Laughs] [Laughs] Right.

Studs Terkel You mean four out of five go?

Stuart Gordon That's right.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Isn't that just situations where the heart stops beating-

Stuart Gordon No.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon -and they have to do CPR? That's all life-threatening situations?

Stuart Gordon Yeah, that's right.

Studs Terkel So it's that- so- because by the time they get in there it's pretty bad.

Stuart Gordon Well it's, you know, it's when they do save somebody it is a very special- they write it down on a blackboard as a matter of fact in most emergency rooms, and give credit to the person who was responsible for it.

Gary Houston But definitely the emergency room we're doing- we are doing is an understaffed emergency room-

Stuart Gordon Although-

Gary Houston -that could use more people there.

Stuart Gordon -very few people are aware of the fact that most emergency rooms, unless it's a full trauma center, that there is not a surgical team on duty 24 hours, that the surgical team has to be called in and oftentimes will take at least an hour to get there. And what we wanted to show the, again, the reality of the emergency room situation in the majority of the emergency rooms.

Richard Fire There was a tendency on- Gary, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think we wanted to glorify in a way, you know, we did this research and you see, really, them in the trenches and there's a real feeling of even though they're flawed that it is heroic. I have to say, I think Stuart has a tendency to play up the- their negative aspects of people practicing medicine. He may- he has his own emergency room story which he may or may tell you.

Stuart Gordon [Laughter]

Richard Fire And Dr. Ron Berman really mediated between us so that they aren't all good, they aren't all bad-

Studs Terkel Mmhmm.

Richard Fire -so we try to strike a balanced position and the immediate change is how you have to go from something that's very serious and life-threatening, and the next person in right off the bat, it's funny, it's, you know.

Studs Terkel Of course, it's got the humor, the- the human comedy, it is sorta the theater, I say theater, I mean the actual place, you know, where human comedy takes place. Some stuff is hilarious, unfortunately so, but funny.

Stuart Gordon It is a very funny play, and, I mean, the audience I think respond to it with more laughter than "Bleacher Bums" at times. I think part of that, though, is built into the emergency room situation, that the doctors and nurses that work there have to have a sense of humor to be able to get through it, and that they oftentimes will joke about things and one of the most common things we heard in the interviews was that they were constantly being reprimanded by the administration of the hospitals for laughing too much on duty.

Studs Terkel This is- you were going to say something, Carolyn?

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon I was just going to say that I think that- that the other aspect that appeals to audiences about E/R that is unique, is that when you go to a real emergency room you, of course, ultimately, at some point or another are blocked out. The screen is drawn across and the patient is inside and you're outside, or the door is closed, or whatever. And this play, I think, appeals to people's- we're all a little voyeuristic and it, you know, it allows you to, you know, see behind the closed doors and the drawn screens and the, you know, closed drapes-

Gary Houston Although some people have been led away because there was a little bit more than they could take-

Studs Terkel Mmhm.

Gary Houston -and I'm simply speaking about a person who has [leaves?] on his chest, you know? There have been people who walked out, not because they disliked the show or anything, [laughs] but because they're getting squeamish already.

Studs Terkel But you see, it's a combination of all, you know. Stuart's pointing out that doctors get, nurses get pulled out sometimes for laughing. It's not that they're insensitive.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon No.

Studs Terkel It's the very nature- it is- the funny things sometimes that which verges on the tragic is funny.

Gary Houston Mmhmm.

Studs Terkel And this is what Beckett writes about, this is what [unintelligible], the fact as it is, because life is goofy, you know, and therefore it's theater!

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon And you see people behaving under the most bizarre conditions when they're in an emergency room, you know?

Stuart Gordon It's a crisis situation, you know, they're at their- in an extreme situation.

Studs Terkel Like you have- well, perhaps- we've been talking about the play, possibly because because since Gary Houston and Richard Fire play the 2 doctors that might have a scene together, or the basis for it, we have that now. But here's some of the people who've come in. We'll start that. Immediately- well, really works on several levels, doesn't it? There's the receptionist [works there?]-

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon It's intended to.

Studs Terkel -the tough nurse at work, who's solid. These two guys having a seemingly a feud between them and the beginning-

Gary Houston Mmhmm. -a

Studs Terkel -a misunderstanding. In the meantime, the cases start piling in, so there are several things happening simultaneously.

Stuart Gordon That's right. And eventually, it gets to the point where there's so much stuff coming in that nobody, no human beings could possibly deal with at all. And everybody gets called into service, including the receptionist who, one of the things we found it real interesting, has absolutely no medical training whatsoever. And oftentimes in an ER situation, it's the receptionist who makes the decision as to how serious someone is and how soon they should be treated. They have a thing called triage in which they have to make those kinds of decisions and they're oftentimes made by people who, you know, have less than a high school education.

Studs Terkel Well, that's a commentary on our country's health situation, medicine, isn't it?

Gary Houston Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of the- and I think a lot of the frightening aspects of the play must be about that, about how- and I know a lot of people have this fear of hospitals and doctors and nurses, mostly of just hospitals and institutions, as being where were competence and incompetence are 2 things hard to distinguish from one another after a while, and it causes a lot of anxiety in patients when they go into them. And I think we probably- it's good that we didn't try to dodge that question, that we went for it, too.

Stuart Gordon A lot of the cases that come in aren't actual emergencies either. I mean a lot of them are-

Gary Houston Yes.

Stuart Gordon -people who are using the emergency room for other things even then medical help. I mean, there are regulars who come in, bag ladies who use the waiting room as a place to stay warm in the wintertime.

Gary Houston Studs, what you said at the beginning about emergency rooms being part of our nightlife [laughs] is actually very true [laughs] for some people. It should be listed in the Tribune

Studs Terkel or So

Stuart Gordon There's always a group of cops that are sitting there having coffee, I mean, it's a regular stop-off point.

Studs Terkel It's a stop-off point to get in out of the rain too, isn't

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon Come in and be social.

Studs Terkel You see, you find some of these old boys on Michigan, in these stock brokerage houses watching the board. They don't have a [sept?], they sit there to keep warm, or in the public library reading room very often.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon That's right, this is another one those kind of places-

Studs Terkel And so here too the emergency room is that too, isn't

Richard Fire I think it's a relief from loneliness for a lot of people, for just downright loneliness.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon There used to be a lady who- who had- this was a case that we heard about in California, this woman had- was on Medicare. And so all of her medical bills were taken care of. But she herself was- was fairly broke. She was an elderly woman who was on a pension, and she had a friend who lived right near the hospital. So when she wanted to go and visit with her friend she would play sick and call an ambulance which was paid for by Medicare. She would make a very, you know, perfunctory visit to the ER, and then go around the corner to visit with her lady friend. And it was much cheaper for her to do that than take a cab or a bus because the trip was paid for.

Richard Fire People do abuse the institution, it's true. And also now, the fact that Americans are so mobile, people move around so much, that a lot of people don't have a regular family doctor so they use it as a clinic.

Studs Terkel Oh yeah. But I don't think- you don't mind me correctin' ya- that's an abuse of it.

Carolyn Purdy-Gordon [Laughs]

Stuart Gordon

Richard Fire

Gary Houston Now, one of the most imaginative theaters in Chicago for a number of years now has been the Organic Theater, and way back you know, Stuart Gordon, the founding director of it and still directing it, and his colleagues, who write as well as direct. To explain that you may recall Bleacher Bums, that was so celebrated and so funny and so accurate, a number of members of the cast, including Stuart Gordon and his wife, you might say co-author, Carolyn Purdy-Gordon, and two of his colleagues, Gary Houston and Richard Fire are around the microphone now, and they're part of a play called E/R Emergency Room. Emergency room, that is so much a part of Chicago's nightlife scene, particularly in hospitals where things happen. And what they did is the story of this discussion, this roundtable we'll have. E/R, which has received very enthusiastic reviews from critics as well as audiences, been running now for 6 months at the Organic Theater. And we'll get the address in a moment. And it's- it's a cooperative project, and 4 of the creative spirits and their- their colleagues too, are round and about, and it makes terribly exciting theater, and it's part of the tradition of Organic. It's organic. It certainly is. So in a moment my guests and E/R, after this message. [Pause in recording] Where do we begin? Stuart, when the group itself came to be, this was kind of the spirit of it, wasn't it? To create new work, yes. New- We're dedicated to exclusively new work. I'm thinking that some of the past works that have been- for which there was more [celebrated?], Warp, for one, Huck Finn- Right. -for another, what is the- how would you describe your- if there's a phrase or a way to describe your approach to theater? Well, I think we are always trying to- to excite and surprise. I think surprise is kind of a key word. To do plays that no one else would think about doing, and to create the plays that our audiences really want to see. We will do plays that are specifically about our audiences on many occasions, such as "Bleacher Bums," which was about, you know, the Chicago sports fans, "Cops," which is about the Chicago policemen, "Sexual Perversity in Chicago," which was about the swinging Rush Street scene. And so- That was one of the earliest of David Mamet plays, wasn't It was the very first- Very first, mmhmm. -professional production of his work, and E/R was- it seemed like a natural. A friend of mine, Dr. Ron Berman, came to me. He was working in an ER, and he came to me with all of these stories. You know, he'd sit around and we would just talk about some of the insane things that would happen to him. I couldn't believe that they were real. And eventually, he went so far as to just make a tape of all of the best stories and I played it for the company and the company was very excited about the idea. And so for about a year, we all began to go to emergency rooms as observers and to interview doctors and nurses to find out as much as possible about that scene. And you went there. Well, Carolyn, you- I know you've been with the company here in its very beginning. Carolyn Purdy-Gordon- Right. -and E/R, let's talk about E/R. This is the play now at the- by the way, the theater, it's a very good little sort of three-quarters round, on- what's the address again? It's 3319 North Clark. -19 North Clark. But E/R Emergency Room, that's a phrase used by, I suppose, doctors and nurses, isn't Right. Well, Ron Berman said if we had any interest in making his recollections into a play, that we, first of all, had to lock up the title E/R. He thought it was a natural and we've stuck with it ever since. Now we come to not simply being actors but being observers of the actual scene as well. Gary, of course, Gary's been an excellent journalist in town, has worked in the theater section, the [theater-book?] section Sun-Times for a number of years, and became an actor-director. So, now more than actors, you've, you four and I believe- There's an additional -several more of your colleagues did something else. What was that? Well, we got a skeletal idea of what we wanted to do, sort of a scenario, a rough idea of the sequence of cases that flow into the emergency room, sort of a "Grand Hotel" kind of play if you think of it that way. And then after that, each segment was committed to an improvisation. Just a few of us around a tape recorder enacting what we think the scene was supposed to be like given the characters, and given the expertise of Dr. Ron Berman who was with us. And after it was taped it was transcribed, after it was transcribed it was edited, after it was edited each segment was put together and it became a script. Richard Fire, you're one of the better actors in town- Thank you. -you're playing, you and Gary play the two doctors, young doctors who, early in your career are here in the emergency- that's where doctors are a lot, aren't they? Everybody goes through the emergency room, yes. Youngish doctors. He's the sincere one, and I'm sort of the- well, it's not really my full-time job, you know? I have a separate ENT practice, and I'm just moonlighting- ENT? Ear, nose, and throat. I'm just kind of moonlighting 'cause I need a little extra money. And this indeed reflect- Gary, on the other hand, plays a doc who is an ER specialist. This is a new specialty. It's about 10 years old. It's less than that, two years, actually. Well- It's emerging. Emerging. Okay. And his attitude as to how the shop should be run and my attitude about how the shop should be run come into conflict. That is the- that is one of the techs of, [is that right?], but throughout, something is happening that is suddenly reality. We watch it, the audience does [and says?], this is incredible because we know it's true. All the stories are Everyone's been to an emergency room, virtually, you know? So we're attracting people both who work in them and who have gone to them. Now, where did you go? Now, you 4 and 2 more of your colleagues- 4 more. There are 8 people together. 4 more, who are also in the cast- Right, in the company. They went- where did you go? Why don't you to describe the scene. We went to several emergency rooms, we went to Northwestern, we went to Illinois Masonic, Henrotin, Cook County. We really, I think- Grant. Grant. We checked- Evanston. -in Evanston. We checked about just about every emergency room in the city. So they came out- so the people there, at the emergency's, came out of neighborhoods, ethnic neighborhoods- Mmhmm. -Black, Latino, poor whites, Appalachians. We wanted to settle in an urban situation. Yeah. And it is true that the thing about the emergency room is so great that you get this total cross-section- Yeah. -of the population. Everybody from the very poor to the very rich comes into that emergency room at some point in the evening. So you- you- you watched the scene, you watched what was happening. When did you go? On Fri- Friday nights? We got to put on coats, you know, blue doctor coats, and follow- Oh! Lab coats [laughs]. -lab coats, and follow doctors around. I did a 6-hour shift. We all did, in various- I tell you the truth, I was so impressed with- you know, people criticize doctors for being arrogant or having attitudes, but especially in an emergency room situation, they're coming to you, it's life and death. You have to figure out what's wrong and then figure out how to treat it. And there's no, you know, you can't call in sick. I mean it's right there, you can't even take, you know, really, you can't take an hour off to think about it, you've got to deal with it right there. We didn't go in as a group. We went in in ones and twos, and then we'd just accomp- each one would accompany a doctor or a nurse and just kind of shadow them through their entire rounds. Ah, so you would- you were inconspicuous. Mmhmm. Oh, So, you had the white coats on, so they thought you were a part of the staff. Yes. The people came out- My initial experience, as a matter-of-fact, was- [Laughing] -with a drunk, which many are treated in emergency rooms, who grabbed me in this vice-like grip and said, "Doc, Doc, you got to help me, Doc! I want to kill!" [laughing]. I said, "you should talk to this man over here." [Wheezy laughing] I mean, what makes it so good, the performer- the production, is that you're doing- you're not simply studying a role from a script, you actually were there- Mmhmm. -and the role emerged because of your experience- Mmhmm. -being there. Yeah, you soak up a lot, it's like osmosis, and it was very valuable. As a matter of fact, I have to admit that the shifts that I visited, not much exciting happened during it. We didn't- I just happen to come into some pretty boring shifts, but the advantage of that was just to soak up the professional atmosphere, I guess. And before- pick up on something that Richard Fire said, you know, suddenly you realize how much work there is to be done. The doctors, the nurses. How, life and death, you know, overwhelms you so much [unintelligible]. Before that, did you say you use a tape recorder? Mmhmm. How is that? So- Those were to tape interviews where we- most of us knew at least one if not several doctors and nurses who have had emergency room experience. And so we invited them to come to the theater and one by one and we taped interviews with them at our theater, as well as doing this fieldwork. Yeah. We never took a tape recorder into the hospitals. But we also use a tapere- the way we actually get the scripts is after we do all this research and decide who's, you know, what is going to happen in the particular scene, we take parts in it and we improvise- And tape that. -and that's how we get the first- Yeah. -script. So, the impulse comes from the actual words? Mmhmm. Oh, definitely. And then you take off and improvise on that? For sure, and all of the stories that are portrayed in E/R, as crazy as some of them may be, are all true. Oh, yeah. Suppose we- because- let's pick up on something that Richard said a moment ago about the work, these are heroes and heroines, unsung heroes and heroines, the docs and the nurses and the attendants who were I don't know if I would go that far. I mean, I think that sometimes they are, that they are- heroics or called for many times. But what we try to show in E/R is that they're just people, that they are not- that they make mistakes, but they're not gods in white coats and that they're capable of having mistakes and judgment and [lighter flicking] all kinds of things, and being insensitive to the problems of the patients that come through there. We wanted to really give an accurate picture of the good and the bad side of the emergency room. They're very human heroes. They're heroes- Yeah. -but they're human beings. Well, I think about the overwhelming pressures, the stuff that comes in, and then we come back to the state of medicine, too without meaning to, it's a commentary on that. We could not- and that's one of those scenes, someone dies because the surgery crew could not be there on That's one of the factors, yeah. Although, I think it's also sort of implicit in the play that even if they had arrived, that the two men that we lost would be goners anyway because they were pretty far gone down the line. The save rate in life-threatening situations in an emergency room is less than 20%. The save rate- That's right. -is That's You mean four out of five go? That's right. Isn't that just situations where the heart stops beating- No. -and they have to do CPR? That's all life-threatening situations? Yeah, that's right. So it's that- so- because by the time they get in there it's pretty bad. Well it's, you know, it's when they do save somebody it is a very special- they write it down on a blackboard as a matter of fact in most emergency rooms, and give credit to the person who was responsible for it. But definitely the emergency room we're doing- we are doing is an understaffed emergency room- Although- -that could use more people there. -very few people are aware of the fact that most emergency rooms, unless it's a full trauma center, that there is not a surgical team on duty 24 hours, that the surgical team has to be called in and oftentimes will take at least an hour to get there. And what we wanted to show the, again, the reality of the emergency room situation in the majority of the emergency rooms. There was a tendency on- Gary, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think we wanted to glorify in a way, you know, we did this research and you see, really, them in the trenches and there's a real feeling of even though they're flawed that it is heroic. I have to say, I think Stuart has a tendency to play up the- their negative aspects of people practicing medicine. He may- he has his own emergency room story which he may or may tell you. [Laughter] And Dr. Ron Berman really mediated between us so that they aren't all good, they aren't all bad- Mmhmm. -so we try to strike a balanced position and the immediate change is how you have to go from something that's very serious and life-threatening, and the next person in right off the bat, it's funny, it's, you know. Of course, it's got the humor, the- the human comedy, it is sorta the theater, I say theater, I mean the actual place, you know, where human comedy takes place. Some stuff is hilarious, unfortunately so, but funny. It is a very funny play, and, I mean, the audience I think respond to it with more laughter than "Bleacher Bums" at times. I think part of that, though, is built into the emergency room situation, that the doctors and nurses that work there have to have a sense of humor to be able to get through it, and that they oftentimes will joke about things and one of the most common things we heard in the interviews was that they were constantly being reprimanded by the administration of the hospitals for laughing too much on duty. This is- you were going to say something, Carolyn? I was just going to say that I think that- that the other aspect that appeals to audiences about E/R that is unique, is that when you go to a real emergency room you, of course, ultimately, at some point or another are blocked out. The screen is drawn across and the patient is inside and you're outside, or the door is closed, or whatever. And this play, I think, appeals to people's- we're all a little voyeuristic and it, you know, it allows you to, you know, see behind the closed doors and the drawn screens and the, you know, closed drapes- Although some people have been led away because there was a little bit more than they could take- Mmhm. -and I'm simply speaking about a person who has [leaves?] on his chest, you know? There have been people who walked out, not because they disliked the show or anything, [laughs] but because they're getting squeamish already. But you see, it's a combination of all, you know. Stuart's pointing out that doctors get, nurses get pulled out sometimes for laughing. It's not that they're insensitive. No. It's the very nature- it is- the funny things sometimes that which verges on the tragic is funny. Mmhmm. And this is what Beckett writes about, this is what [unintelligible], the fact as it is, because life is goofy, you know, and therefore it's theater! And you see people behaving under the most bizarre conditions when they're in an emergency room, you know? It's a crisis situation, you know, they're at their- in an extreme situation. Like you have- well, perhaps- we've been talking about the play, possibly because because since Gary Houston and Richard Fire play the 2 doctors that might have a scene together, or the basis for it, we have that now. But here's some of the people who've come in. We'll start that. Immediately- well, really works on several levels, doesn't it? There's the receptionist [works there?]- It's intended to. -the tough nurse at work, who's solid. These two guys having a seemingly a feud between them and the beginning- Mmhmm. -a misunderstanding. In the meantime, the cases start piling in, so there are several things happening simultaneously. That's right. And eventually, it gets to the point where there's so much stuff coming in that nobody, no human beings could possibly deal with at all. And everybody gets called into service, including the receptionist who, one of the things we found it real interesting, has absolutely no medical training whatsoever. And oftentimes in an ER situation, it's the receptionist who makes the decision as to how serious someone is and how soon they should be treated. They have a thing called triage in which they have to make those kinds of decisions and they're oftentimes made by people who, you know, have less than a high school education. Well, that's a commentary on our country's health situation, medicine, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of the- and I think a lot of the frightening aspects of the play must be about that, about how- and I know a lot of people have this fear of hospitals and doctors and nurses, mostly of just hospitals and institutions, as being where were competence and incompetence are 2 things hard to distinguish from one another after a while, and it causes a lot of anxiety in patients when they go into them. And I think we probably- it's good that we didn't try to dodge that question, that we went for it, too. A lot of the cases that come in aren't actual emergencies either. I mean a lot of them are- Yes. -people who are using the emergency room for other things even then medical help. I mean, there are regulars who come in, bag ladies who use the waiting room as a place to stay warm in the wintertime. Studs, what you said at the beginning about emergency rooms being part of our nightlife [laughs] is actually very true [laughs] for some people. It should be listed in the Tribune or So There's always a group of cops that are sitting there having coffee, I mean, it's a regular stop-off point. It's a stop-off point to get in out of the rain too, isn't it? Come in and be social. You see, you find some of these old boys on Michigan, in these stock brokerage houses watching the board. They don't have a [sept?], they sit there to keep warm, or in the public library reading room very often. That's right, this is another one those kind of places- And so here too the emergency room is that too, isn't it? I think it's a relief from loneliness for a lot of people, for just downright loneliness. There used to be a lady who- who had- this was a case that we heard about in California, this woman had- was on Medicare. And so all of her medical bills were taken care of. But she herself was- was fairly broke. She was an elderly woman who was on a pension, and she had a friend who lived right near the hospital. So when she wanted to go and visit with her friend she would play sick and call an ambulance which was paid for by Medicare. She would make a very, you know, perfunctory visit to the ER, and then go around the corner to visit with her lady friend. And it was much cheaper for her to do that than take a cab or a bus because the trip was paid for. People do abuse the institution, it's true. And also now, the fact that Americans are so mobile, people move around so much, that a lot of people don't have a regular family doctor so they use it as a clinic. Oh yeah. But I don't think- you don't mind me correctin' ya- that's an abuse of it. [Laughs] [Laughs] [Laughs] [Laughs] [Unintelliglbe] [Laughs] Sure. [Laughs] Right. Right. Right, [Laughs] [Laughs] [Laughs] Right.