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Interview with Norma Aleandro and Oscar Kramer

BROADCAST: Nov. 12, 1985

Digital audio not yet public.


Discussing the film "The Official Story," an entry in the 21st Chicago International Film Festival, with actress Norma Aleandro and Oscar Kramer.


Oscar Kramer I will help you only in extremis.

Studs Terkel That's funny, he said he will help her only in extreme, Oscar Kramer is one of the producers of a quite remarkable film at the, probably the hit of the 21st Chicago Film Festival now going on, Oscar Kramer is the, one of the producers, film called "The Official Story", an Argentinean film. And he was talking to the star of the film, Norma Aleandro who is quite magnificent and who in all the other festivals, Cannes, elsewhere, won the Best Actress award. This film we're talking about, Luis Puenzo the director, you, Norma Aleandro and you, Oscar Kramer, the -- so directly connected with it, deals with a theme we know about very little in the United States. It dealt with a time of the junta. It's called "The Official Story", and people who disappeared, most of them young people, and how it concerns you. Why don't you perhaps set the scene for the situation. The phrase uses "desaparecidos," "the disappeared."

Oscar Kramer "The Disappeared Ones."

Studs Terkel So this was part -- the junta was for how long, the fascist junta that was finally beaten in the elections?

Oscar Kramer From 1976 to 1983, was six years where many people disappeared. When we say disappear, it's like a joke because

Norma Aleandro -- A tragic joke.

Oscar Kramer A tragic joke, it is -- they were probably really dead. And some of them, most of them, they didn't have any thing to do with no kind of political activity. They were just suspicious of doing something, they were friends who were on a list of people on a book or an agenda or people who were trying to make personal revenge about somebody because they had personal problems, they have the power to make people disappear.

Studs Terkel And fear, I suppose, the instilling of fear, so Norma Aleandro, you yourself have been for years, for a number of years a distinguished actress in Argentina on the stage and screen. You were living there at that time.

Norma Aleandro Yes, in '76 in June I leaved [alone?] my country because

Studs Terkel You left Argentina.

Norma Aleandro Left Argentina to exile in Uruguay and

Studs Terkel Uruguay.

Norma Aleandro Spain to '81. In '81 I return to Argentina. Because I was very sad in exile and I return to my country and play theater. I was afraid, but I preferred my country.

Studs Terkel You yourself were, received threats too, didn't you? You?

Oscar Kramer Yes, when Norma left the country it was about a few months the junta took power in March 1976, and June and the same night they threw a bomb at the theater when Norma was doing a one-woman show. They put a bomb then at her apartment and they threatened by phone, telling her "You have to leave the country in 24 hours."

Studs Terkel That was it. Because -- now, Norma herself was not very political.

Oscar Kramer No.

Norma Aleandro No, I'm not activist, no political

Studs Terkel No, but what was it?

Norma Aleandro Because I think that I have some positions about peace, about dictator, left or right dictator.

Studs Terkel You didn't like either.

Norma Aleandro Yes. And I have opinions about this political government. About tortures, that I don't like the parties, political parties that in that moment in Argentina, this liberal position or humanity position was so

Studs Terkel Considered subversive.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Norma Aleandro That's it.

Studs Terkel And so therefore you

Norma Aleandro Disagreeable for the government seat.

Studs Terkel I know that you were a known actress there at the time. We're leading up to this film. This is all leading up to the film. During that terrible time, those years, people disappeared. Among those disappeared were young pregnant women and giving birth to babies, and the babies disappeared.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel We're getting closer and closer to the film, you see.

Norma Aleandro Babies tortured, babies killed babies, and some babies

Oscar Kramer Were sold or given away to military people who happens not to have any childrens.

Studs Terkel Ah, so now, a lot of the babies whose mothers may have been killed or disappeared, and grandmothers were parading in the plaza, say "Where are our children, where are my grandchildren?" Those babies were given, were adopted or given away to those who collaborated with the government.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Norma Aleandro And some people adopted babies with a good intention.

Studs Terkel Innocently.

Norma Aleandro Innocently.

Oscar Kramer Without questioning themselves for where, where all those childrens coming?

Studs Terkel And so we come to the role that Norma Aleandro plays, Alicia. Now we've got to come to her. Here is now where the movie opens, who, by the, written by the director, Lu Puenzo and Aida Bortnick. Based on all this, and so here is a kind, decent woman who teaches history in a school, married to a very successful businessman. And you have this delightful little girl who's 5 years old. Gaby. Right?

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel Well, okay.

Norma Aleandro In my country is a classic mind of history professor. This kind of, of character, Alicia, because in my country we had official story. In the past century and in this century, the history -- lo que han ganado.

Oscar Kramer Yes, the story only speaks about the winners, let's say, that what we learn in the books and the books.

Studs Terkel And she is teaching history in a school, she has young boys in the class, young men in her class, and you believe in this book, you teach by the book. Yes.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel The official history.

Norma Aleandro Yes, this is true. And in the life, Alicia live the same way that she

Studs Terkel Teaches.

Norma Aleandro Teaches. She live.

Studs Terkel In or nothing outside the official story is discussed in your life. So when you and your husband, and you live a rather affluent life, you go to a dinner party. There's a marvelous dinner party.

Norma Aleandro Yes, very special dinner party.

Studs Terkel At this dinner party, someone's "Let's not discuss." Some brought -- politics, religion were not discuss. And so it becomes trivial discussion. Gossip.

Norma Aleandro Yes, she is very angry in this

Studs Terkel She is.

Norma Aleandro Party. She didn't like the friend sentences about girl, about

Studs Terkel Didn't like the gossip.

Norma Aleandro Disagreeable

Studs Terkel She didn't like the gossip. You see, where Alicia is interesting to me, the role you play and so beautifully, is that is a very decent person, but innocent. And she's happy with her child and likes her husband very much.

Oscar Kramer Certainly.

Studs Terkel By the way, she doesn't know how the baby was ado-- her husband arranged the adoption.

Oscar Kramer Yes, her husband She

Norma Aleandro -- She never asked.

Oscar Kramer Came one night

Studs Terkel She never asked.

Oscar Kramer Never.

Norma Aleandro Never ask. His situation in the life was very traditional situation in the women life, in the Latin countries, you know, this middle-class women that never asks at her husband about his job or about the [operation?] in the politico actuality in the country.

Studs Terkel She never asked how he made -- he's doing well. She didn't ask what his work was, or the company he's working for, and also didn't ask how the baby was adopted. The one, the child you and he both love so much. But also you pointed out in interview, you, Norma Aleandro, that in most countries of the world, I mean certainly in Argentina, I say most countries of the world, the great majority of people living fairly well don't want to know.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel What came -- isn't that the idea? 'Cause if you know you're disturbed by some[thing?].

Norma Aleandro Yes, [older? all the?] person, his little home paradise and doesn't like to know many things about the tragedies of people, and this is the human condition I suppose. No? And this is the, the point in the movie that I think is most interesting than the political history because it's the human history.

Studs Terkel By the way, well of course, Norma Aleandro is pointing out something very important. It's not a political film, that's precisely the point. It's the human condition of people living a certain way in the world today, maybe throughout history. Don't want to know. And the husband is taking care of my wife, my family, that's it.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel We don't care what happens outside. That was a dinner party, and that's you teaching history! According to the book, but you got those kids in the class, you got some -- there's young. How come those young kids know more than you do about what was going on in -- Oscar, you might help here, how come you knew more than what the teacher was going on in Argentina at the time?

Oscar Kramer Because that was the moment when we became aware of reality. That was the moment of the Malvinas, Falklands War that we lost, and the information we had was that we were the winners. We were the world soccer champion, we were the best in the world in everything. This is propaganda.

Studs Terkel Number one.

Oscar Kramer Number one.

Norma Aleandro From

Oscar Kramer From the government of course. No information at all. And suddenly we begin to realize that what they were telling us, some people newspapers from all over the world, every time an Argentine travels abroad, he realizes or he reads the "Chicago Tribune" or "The New York Times" and he read about the disappeared ones. People were beginning to know. The military government was in the last moments. The political parties begin to be a little bit more outspoken, and the young generation, the new generation begin to realize it true.

Studs Terkel But she, Alicia, a decent woman, loving mother, and everything else is the teacher. She's the innocent in the class of these kids who seem to know more. I gotta ask a terrible question. Losing the Falklands War, the Malvinas War, suppose Argentina had won that. It's a terrible question.

Oscar Kramer It is a terrible question for us also, I think that the military will have been go on with the propaganda, saying that there's no problems probably the people we never have been informed what was happening. I mean we maintain that the Malvinas are part of Argentine politics, and we, we can, we will always try to get it. But like Alfonsine is trying to do it, on the right way and the, on the international judgment at the United Nations, but not by force, and making think to the people that they can send young boys, inexperienced boys to the war, to a lost war.

Studs Terkel Yes. And so we come to, back to Alicia again and the family, and the innocence and living a life, but something happens here in your life. There's a reunion of your class. You and your classmates, the women who went to this college together, or this, whatever school you went together, and your best friend who had gone away.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel Like you did to Uruguay for a while. Your best friend Ana comes back and something is revealed.

Norma Aleandro She told me about "desaparecidos," about the tortures, and it's the first time then Alicia know this tragedy in her country, because it's the first time that he [sic] hear and listen.

Oscar Kramer To somebody who really got through that hell.

Norma Aleandro And in this moment, she began to recuperate the conscience, the human conscience about the reality. Her reality and the country reality. This is the most important moment in the film. It's a tragic moment.

Studs Terkel A moment of enlightenment. A flash, the revelation!

Norma Aleandro Revelation.

Studs Terkel See, what's so funny about this character, Alicia, I mean funny and marvelous the way Norma Aleandro does it, too, that she's all over the world. She's educated, formally, middle-class and she teaches history by the book, knows but, but doesn't know what's going on outside, and because she didn't want to know. Husband said it's okay, don't -- it's not your business.

Norma Aleandro She need the security. I think that many persons need security in life.

Studs Terkel Security.

Norma Aleandro Don't like to know about other tragedies.

Studs Terkel And so other tragedies don't affect you. But now it comes closer to home. Of course, your friend Ana says about the disappeared, including babies. And you start thinking about your beloved little girl whom you've adopted, Gaby.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel And you start thinking, don't you?

Norma Aleandro Yes. And she began to investigation about girl, and the same time the investigation about the country, about the situation and about herself.

Studs Terkel So now it's a seeking for truth now. Now suddenly she becomes the investigative -- that, by the way, there are little seeds of this planted throughout. Like in the class, there's another teacher, as a man teacher, the guy with the glasses who's this kid's like, he's obviously a dissenting teacher. He is, he's a liberal.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel And he's dropping little hints to you. And so these little things start adding up in the mind, because we on television here saw sometimes on news shows in the square in Buenos Aires the mothers of the disappeared with pictures of their sons and daughters and maybe grandchildren. And you start thinking, "Hey, where did Gaby come from?" Your little daughter.

Norma Aleandro Yes. You know, in '83 Alicia for first time she saw this grandmothers and understand which is the significated of this

Oscar Kramer Of this march.

Norma Aleandro March.

Oscar Kramer We didn't see that on television.

Studs Terkel No, you didn't see that there.

Oscar Kramer No, and no one wants -- wanted to go, because as you can see in the film, the police were surrounding it, Plaza de Madre, they didn't want the foreign press come to film the march. As a matter of fact, it was the only people who really made demonstrations in those

Studs Terkel And so Alicia now because of the seeds planted, doubt, questions. You decide to go to the square to find out yourself. First she goes to the archives, the libraries, the hospitals.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel To find out about Gaby.

Studs Terkel And to meet, to meet the grandmother.

Oscar Kramer She's running away, and also the main thing that Norma portrays so well is that you see in the film that she's not a heroine, she's not born to be a heroine. She's a simple middle-class woman who tries suddenly to realize what's happening with her life.

Norma Aleandro She understand that she is a victim too and she's -- her girl is another victim.

Studs Terkel That's right. She's not a -- that's right, not someone saying "No pasaran" or stuff like that.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Studs Terkel No, she, she's just a -- but also you start asking your husband how it came -- he start "Don't worry, will you quit worrying about it."

Norma Aleandro He don't likes

Oscar Kramer He don't like the questions.

Norma Aleandro The questions. And it's the first time that his wife ask him about the mother of the girl, about if he pay or not pay to the doctor of the mother of the baby that he didn't like to speak about this question because this is a very

Studs Terkel Someone said this is like Nora in Ibsen's "A Doll's House".

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Studs Terkel She's a doll-like figure. Even though she's a teacher and [out there?], she's -- suddenly she starts breaking out.

Oscar Kramer And for the first time in years she goes in a scene that probably you remember, she goes to the office, to the office of her husband. She never goes there.

Studs Terkel And she hears all kinds of arguments going on. Something's gone -- we know, I assume this deals with multinational stuff. I also assume there's got your corruption going on here. There's an emergency.

Oscar Kramer Yes.

Studs Terkel And the guy put the blame on this old guy. As a scapegoat, and she's right in the middle of it there. So your paradise is no longer a paradise.

Norma Aleandro Or broken, the paradise, no?

Oscar Kramer The idealization about the life she's having, when she has everything and she never question herself.

Studs Terkel Because we come back to a theme again, don't we, there can't be a little paradise in which I'm, see I'm taking care of my family, says this guy, my wife and my child and that doesn't -- the rest doesn't matter, because the rest does matter. Of course now you -- there can't be a little paradise in the middle of a sea of, of corruption and horror. It's got to go. In a way that's what it is, she -- that's what the kids are trying to tell her in the class. This all adds up to one thing, so something goes on. Now she's taking a more active part to find out. Throughout we have these different scenes back and forth and in which now she meets this stranger who is the grandmother who was in the plaza and there's a key scene there, isn't there?

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Oscar Kramer Alicia in the film finally confronts people that she never met, that she never understood, that she never took the time in her life to try to understand. And suddenly in a scene of five minutes you see a different kind of world approaching the life of Alicia, a world that can change completely her way of living.

Norma Aleandro You remember in this scene the grandmother said, " Don't cry. It's not useful to cry. No, it's useful to, to, to do something, to investigation this problem, to -- but not -- don't cry." You remember?

Studs Terkel Yeah. This grandmother, we should point out just to keep the record straight. This grandmother may be the grandmother, the real grandmother of Gaby, your little adopted girl, because her daughter was taken away. One of those "desaparidos"

Oscar Kramer "Desaparecidos."

Studs Terkel "Desaparecidos," one of the disappeared. And there's several -- funny, there are two key scenes there with two women and one with your husband, Ana, your friend, the first blinding light, and then comes the second, but bit by bit she is growing up, you are growing up.

Norma Aleandro Yes. And change.

Studs Terkel By the way, you -- should ask you about your acting, your performance that is so superb. You do things physically, too, in the very beginning you're very formal. Very attractive, of course. Well-gowned, but very stiff.

Norma Aleandro Timid, too.

Studs Terkel Timid.

Norma Aleandro Yes. Timid. And through the

Studs Terkel Through the

Norma Aleandro The revelations she change her style and he [sic] was more free to expressions, to, to live.

Oscar Kramer Yes. She has, like Norma always said in Spanish, I will try to say it in English, is that she had a bad relation with space.

Studs Terkel Now that's a phrase that Norma has used. A bad relation with space.

Oscar Kramer They feel bad with themselves physically.

Norma Aleandro And like

Studs Terkel You can't expand.

Norma Aleandro Their

Oscar Kramer They don't like themselves.

Norma Aleandro Themselves, no?

Studs Terkel So Norma had this very problem.

Oscar Kramer Very stiff physical position.

Studs Terkel And, but as you are growing, become more disturbed by this and questioning your husband more, physically you're growing. I mean, your hair's let down a bit, you're looser; you're more loose! Isn't that so? I'm asking you this as an acting exercise.

Norma Aleandro Yes. I love this character. So different than my character.

Studs Terkel Yeah. You know what also interesting coming back to your husband, who by the way is a very fascinating character, this guy. Now and then you're visiting his relatives, his father and his brother, and they came from another background, didn't they? They were kind of questioning. He's an old anarchist father, an old Spanish anarchist.

Studs Terkel Yes, poor people, no? They were

Oscar Kramer They're workers. They are people that they are not sharing the same position, economical position of Alicia's husband. But in a way they don't care. They are happy living in the same place without changing neighborhood. You remember the scene over there when his son is so happy because he gave new clothes to his mother and he gave her a

Norma Aleandro Machine.

Oscar Kramer A machine

Studs Terkel -- A refrigerator.

Oscar Kramer Washing machine, refrigerator, and she felt so happy. But he can't conquer his father by those things.

Studs Terkel See what happened there is, this, he made good. His junta time, he succeeded. We don't know how he did, we just assume he collaborated. The husband.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel Loves his wife as a doll, and loves the adopted child that she doesn't know how he got.

Norma Aleandro This is a reality. Many people like his

Studs Terkel He made

Norma Aleandro [Lot of fun?]

Studs Terkel And he's not going to give that up no matter what.

Oscar Kramer No matter what, and he consider father and his brother losers.

Studs Terkel Loo-- that's -- so there's a scene. We come to something very important here I think.

Norma Aleandro It's

Studs Terkel Makes it a universal film, not just Argentinian. He's, why is he condemned for being a winner, he said. "You guys want a -- you guys are losers, and you're really condemning me because I've succeeded."

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel Doesn't matter how or what, and so we're talking about an ideal, aren't we?

Norma Aleandro Yes, this is a most important thought, husband thought, that

Oscar Kramer The successful people who divides the, let's say their friends or the relatives in losers or winners. And this is something

Studs Terkel But here is Alicia

Oscar Kramer -- But that's a classic all over

Studs Terkel Here is the wife Alicia during this argument in the courtyard at where, in the patio where they're eating visiting there, your husband's father and mother and brother. You walk away from it. Again, you see, you didn't take part in this argument. You Alicia, you took no part in it.

Norma Aleandro No.

Studs Terkel But you're hearing it.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel And that's another thing that comes against you.

Oscar Kramer She beginning to look at her husband in a very different way.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Oscar Kramer But you realize her husband, no, he doesn't want to know. He goes on thinking that what he's doing is right.

Norma Aleandro She compared the, the words of the grandfather and the words of the, her husband.

Studs Terkel He's saying to you, and it's universal, "I'm taking care of you. You got any complaints? The food, the clothes, I'm affectionate to you. The baby we've adopted is very happy, the toys, the dolls I've brought her, we both love this ch-- what do you want? What are you looking for?" Because

Norma Aleandro The truth!

Studs Terkel For the truth now.

Oscar Kramer Would you believe that we have people coming after the, seeing the film is saying, "Listen, that that man, he's not bad. He's taking care of his family, he's a good person. If he has feelings. He doesn't cheat his wife, he, and then the whole picture is not another woman portrait, nothing. He's crying in the final scene. He loves his family."

Norma Aleandro Yes. And this is possible.

Studs Terkel So you see, and no matter how, how horrible the society is

Norma Aleandro -- [Unintelligible] [allows, loves?].

Studs Terkel You mind your own business and get along.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Studs Terkel And he does. Now there's also corruption taking place, the company is in trouble on top of everything, but something's happened to her. You're now growing up. Alicia is, and in growing up you go beyond him now. That's the thing, isn't it, you go past him.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel And of course there is a scene there, isn't there, where he, he loses control?

Oscar Kramer Yeah, probably in that scene is when he demonstrates his real feelings, his repressed feelings, let's say.

Studs Terkel The repressed feelings when he -- well, let's say he hits her. I mean, really hits her.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Oscar Kramer He demonstrates his violence.

Studs Terkel His violence comes out. Everything is good, but why do you question what's happens outside? And so he goes violent. And that's a discovery for you.

Norma Aleandro A new husband, no? In this.

Oscar Kramer The discovery of the person that you realize -- he's saying in that scene, "Who am I? A torturer?" And that's the key scene in a way, that's a key word, because she realize suddenly that probably he is in a very subtile [sic]

Studs Terkel In a subtle way.

Oscar Kramer Yes.

Studs Terkel Going along. So we really don't know how he got the ch-- see, he obv-- as history tells us, and the, you know the reporter, journalists tell us outside that the young know that many people were given children who were -- women were barren, couldn't -- those who collaborated, and they were able to adopt some of these children. So obviously your husband would fall in that category.

Oscar Kramer Yes, exactly. But you know, this is a universal problem. We have been releasing the films in many countries, and especially when we first show it at Cannes, the reaction of the audience independently of the film makers or the critics, the reaction of the, of the public. You couldn't imagine how many people share this problem. How many millions of people has adopted childrens without questioning themselves where they come from. And as you know and as you have been saying, how many people never questioned their personal life?

Studs Terkel See, it's more than the adopting of the children. That's almost a metaphor. You see? It happens to be so dramatic in this case historically and theatrically dramatic. The key story is not questioning the world in which you live, not question the world outside your kitchen and living room and home. That to me is the key. So I'm just, take care of my wife and my family. I don't give a damn what happens outside. Is this guy! Won't be -- naturally collaborates by the very doing that.

Oscar Kramer Yes.

Studs Terkel And something happens to paradise that isn't paradise at all. But the woman, come back to Norma Aleandro, your performance of course was acclaimed everywhere, it went all -- there was no question of who was the best actress in the festival and something that, when you returned to Argentina now, under the Democratic administration of Alfonsin, what happened? She came back like a sports hero!

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Oscar Kramer Exactly.

Norma Aleandro Good, and and very happily moment in my life because now in my country we live free and in democracy and this is very important for us.

Studs Terkel You know, it also most is -- you know, without seemingly overdramatic, it's almost a redemption of, in this case of Argentina's artistic reputation.

Oscar Kramer Exactly. We had a good year to be recognized.

Studs Terkel How was the film received in Argentina?

Oscar Kramer Very well received. We opened the film in April, and 'til today we have one million two hundred spectators, which for our country is very good. We opened in England, which as you can imagine they were very curious about an Argentine film, and we are already in the eighth week, and now United States.

Studs Terkel So we're coming back to history again, so we come back to two thi-- there's so many dimensions to the film. There's the personal story of course, and out of that comes the universal story. What is history? We come back to the very fact that you were a history teacher, teaching it in a narrow, strict, book-like official way, the official story. You're teaching the kids the official story in class.

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel At the same time, the official story is there are no disappeared, ever, as the junta

Norma Aleandro Yes, and in Spanish, the history have two meanings. Not in English, but in Spanish

Oscar Kramer Is like saying, probably you say in English, "Oh, don't tell me that story."

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Oscar Kramer And in Ar-- in Spanish, in Argentina especially, history has that, those two meanings.

Studs Terkel There was that. Well, it comes out in the film, too. And now I'm thinking about -- it's going to -- I should point out, little things you point out, that tonight, this very night, it's at the festival. At the McClurg Theater at ten o'clock tonight. It's "The Official Story" is the film there, but then it'll be opening Friday for a regular run at the Biograph Theatre. We should point these out here. It's part of a 21st Chicago Film Festival, which is achieving a better and better reputation as it goes along. The film festival. Any other thoughts about -- yourself, what other roles have you done in theater in terms -- have you done classic roles, do you play

Norma Aleandro In theater, yes. Well, sometimes classic and contemporary theater. Chekhov or Ibsen or

Studs Terkel You've done that, yeah.

Norma Aleandro Tennessee Williams.

Studs Terkel You could be good "Electra," too.

Oscar Kramer She played "Medea."

Norma Aleandro No, "Medea."

Studs Terkel Oh, you did "Medea!" Oh, I'd say -- you did "Medea!"

Oscar Kramer And she directed also.

Studs Terkel Oh, really, you did "Medea" -- another kind of mother.

Norma Aleandro Yes, another kind of mother. Another kind.

Studs Terkel So you did do "Medea," yeah, you'd be good "Electra," too.

Norma Aleandro But she loves her childrens, too.

Studs Terkel Of course she loved her children, but the hatred for Jason.

Oscar Kramer [Spanish - Pero el odio que tenia a Jason.]

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel But she did, she did classic, or you've done Ibsen. Did you ever do

Norma Aleandro "Hedda Gabler."

Studs Terkel You did "Hedda."

Norma Aleandro "Hedda," and Arthur Miller and Abigail in

Studs Terkel Oh, Abigail in "The Crucible".

Oscar Kramer "The

Norma Aleandro "The Crucible", and Alma Weinmiller in

Studs Terkel Alma Weinmiller in "Summer and Smoke"?

Norma Aleandro And Laura in, in

Studs Terkel Laura in "The Glass Menagerie".

Norma Aleandro Yes. Well, and many plays of Spanish gold century. Well, Tirso de Molina

Studs Terkel Garcia Lorca plays.

Norma Aleandro Yes. Well.

Oscar Kramer And a comedy she did for a long time, "Sometime Next Year"

Norma Aleandro Yes.

Studs Terkel Comedy.

Norma Aleandro Two, three, yes.

Studs Terkel You know, I was thinking in watching you, I was thinking, this is the difference. I call you a "cool Magnani." That is, you're not, not the tempestuous Magnani, but a cool Anna

Norma Aleandro Anna Magnani I love.

Studs Terkel Of

Norma Aleandro I love.

Studs Terkel Any base we haven't touched you feel like touching, it's a phrase I always use, anything we haven't said that perhaps we should -- a lot of things we omitted, of course, in talking about the film. Any other aspect of the film and its impact?

Oscar Kramer [Spanish - Que quiera decir, or algo

Norma Aleandro Well, [Spanish - A mi me interesa que nos conozcan de otra manera,

Oscar Kramer Yes, we were very happy that people try to know us for something different like doing a film or trying to expose ourselves and not be remembered only for all this tragic things we -- that happened in our country, and we're trying to arrange that, we're trying to be

Studs Terkel I think this thing, this is, this is you talking, Norma. Norma -- "I want to do this because it is a human film," coming back again, this is beyond specific po-- "situation has a political background, but it's centered specifically on human subjective reactions. There are people who" -- this is you. What it -- can you read it? There are people who in a wreck choose -- can you even though this is a translation, can you read this? Yourself? I know you said it in Spanish. Why don't you read that?

Norma Aleandro "The situation has a political background that it is centered specifically in human subjective reactions. There are people who in Greek choose to take the boat and save themselves, and others who can't resist the temptation to save others. They are also people who are capable of killing others to escape. This are big personal decisions. They have to do with a place, call it the conscience. People may not all understand the Argentine political process, that it is easy to understand that human dilemma and this human tragedy."

Studs Terkel That's pretty much the picture, "The Official Story", this is by way of thanking you both, Norma Aleandro and Oscar Kramer. What's the Spanish word for "truth"?

Oscar Kramer Verdad.

Studs Terkel "Verdad" -- oh, verdad!

Oscar Kramer Verdad.

Studs Terkel Verdad. And justice.

Norma Aleandro Justicia.

Studs Terkel "Justicia."

Norma Aleandro Justicia.

Studs Terkel And gracias.

Norma Aleandro Thank you very much.

Oscar Kramer Thank you very