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Tony Hiss discusses his book "Laughing Last"

BROADCAST: Mar. 14, 1977 | DURATION: 00:54:20

Synopsis

Content Warning: This conversation includes racially and/or culturally derogatory language and/or negative depictions of Black and Indigenous people of color, women, and LGBTQI+ individuals. Rather than remove this content, we present it in the context of twentieth-century social history to acknowledge and learn from its impact and to inspire awareness and discussion. The book, "Laughing Last: Alger Hiss" is the biography of Tony Hiss' father. Although Alger Hiss was convicted of perjury and did time in prison, Tony Hiss said his father, Al, was doing all right. The senior Hiss was out conducting college lectures. In addition, Alger Hiss considered his time in prison a good thing, being away from his wife. The interview starts with an excerpt of young people being asked what does Alger Hiss mean to them, along with commentary from Alger Hiss.

Transcript

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Studs Terkel There are certain trigger words in the American language. A trigger word would be Wall Street, nigger, Jew, commie. These are trigger words. These are words that set people's emotions going. I think of all the American names, Nixon's a trigger word, Richard Nixon. But equally much a trigger word Richard Nixon, is someone who Nixon knew or didn't know but someone whom Nixon used, Alger Hiss. As soon the name Alger Hiss is mentioned, to people of a certain age, I should point out, somebody just shouts one way or the other, "Traitor," "Hiss traitor," someone says "framed." "Laughing Last" is a book about Alger Hiss that tells me what it's all about far more than any legal brief ever could. And it's written by Tony Hiss, his son. "Laughing Lass- Last Alger Hiss: A Story" by Tony Hiss, and it's published by- who is the

Tony Hiss Houghton Mifflin.

Studs Terkel Houghton Mifflin. And Tony Hiss is a journalist, writes for The New Yorker Magazine, and you'll recall E.M. Frimbo, the great railroad man his name Rogers Whitaker did a book about railroads and his collaborator, collaborator-

Tony Hiss Yep.

Studs Terkel was Tony Hiss and he's my guest this morning. And it's a profile, a portrait of Alger Hiss, and in a way you perhaps should judge yourself. Those of you who've been following the case, and how do you follow that case, what are your sources? And there have been books about it, pro and con, that has some saying he's guilty others saying-proving that he's innocent. Each one saying that and you judge. [And you?] must remember the time in which the trial was held, by the way, was Richard Nixon who came to fame and to glory of some sort as a result of his prosecution of Alger Hiss. So in a moment, Tony Hiss and "Laughing Last" after this message. When your father was visiting Chicago a few years ago, his book was reissued, "In the Court of Public

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel I tried an experiment.

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel And I asked some of the young people working around this station, you know. When was the Hiss case? What year? Roughly?

Tony Hiss It started

Studs Terkel '48.

Tony Hiss lasted through '51. Something like-

Studs Terkel to '51. So some 27 years ago.

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel Asked young people in the 20's, some 30's, who is Alger Hiss? Let's see, let's see what came out. I say to you the name Alger Hiss, what's that mean?

Unidentified Female 1 Nothing.

Studs Terkel Nothing.

Unidentified Female 1 Doesn't ring

Studs Terkel Doesn't ring any

Unidentified Female 1 Nothing.

Studs Terkel Alger Hiss. It doesn't,

Unidentified Female 1 No I'm not familiar with that name at all.

Studs Terkel No. How old would you be, by the way?

Unidentified Female 1 25

Studs Terkel 25. The name Alger Hiss.

Unidentified Female 2 I don't know. It it vaguely means something political to me.

Studs Terkel But that's all?

Unidentified Female 2 Yes.

Studs Terkel [unintelligible]

Unidentified Female 3 She's some relation to Horatio Alger.

Studs Terkel If I say to you- Hora- Horatio Alger?

Unidentified Female 3 She's some

Studs Terkel Oh,

Unidentified Male 1 No, what I was gonna say is I think I've read the person's name in the news lately, but I, I can't, I can't-

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Male 1 remember exactly.

Studs Terkel You don't recall. How old are you?

Unidentified Male 1 26.

Studs Terkel Alger Hiss, what's that name mean to you?

Unidentified Female 4 Dirty commie spy. That's what I've always thought about him.

Studs Terkel Yeah. When did you, how did you know? How

Unidentified Female 4 As a kid, he was the prototype of of this sort of undercover, sneaky person. You know. You gotta be careful not to trust anybody who they're like him. People who look like

Studs Terkel Yeah. You know what he looks like?

Unidentified Female 4 He was kind of nice looking as I recall. Didn't he have a mustache?

Studs Terkel No-

Unidentified Female 4 I dont know if he did or not-

Studs Terkel But vaguely, what you think he looked like, if you remember.

Unidentified Female 4 He was medium height, maybe 5 10. I thought he had kind of graying hair as I recall. Maybe it's just from seeing his pictures in the newspaper that he looked like that. But I was very young at the time-

Studs Terkel Yeah. Well [when I say the name?] Alger Hiss now, what does it mean

Unidentified Female 4 The same thing.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Female 4 Actually.

Studs Terkel Yeah

Unidentified Female 4 I, I sort of get him mixed up with that woman. What was her name? Rosenberg. They were all sort of around the same time it seemed to me-

Studs Terkel The

Unidentified Female 4 in my mind. Yeah.

Studs Terkel Who-What happened to them, do you know?

Unidentified Female 4 Well, no-

Studs Terkel What happened to the

Unidentified Female 4 I just remember they had a trial and it was a big thing in the newspapers.

Studs Terkel You know what happened to them.

Unidentified Female 4 No. Do they get killed? [laughter] I can't remember. I was just you know in grammar school.

Studs Terkel But as the names come up today, you associate the two-

Unidentified Female 4 These are just real evil people that were exposed.

Studs Terkel That's where it is today, you read nothing further about them.

Unidentified Female 4 No. No.

Unidentified Male 2 To me it brings up the witch hunting of the 50's. I think he was a, he was a lower echelon, maybe not a clerk, but someone in the State Department, who I I have the feeling was was framed largely because he was Black and liberal-

Studs Terkel Because he was Black and liberal.

Unidentified Male 2 Yeah. And I know that Nixon was involved in it and came off with a dirty face, and I don't remember too much- I don't know too much else about it. Except that his name was linked with McCarthyism and generally that he was a scapegoat.

Studs Terkel What does he look like? Do you remember?

Unidentified Male 2 I remember he was very light. I didn't know he was Black until I read it. That's all.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Unidentified Male 2 That's about it.

Studs Terkel Where'd you read the news that he was Black?

Unidentified Male 2 I don't know. Life Magazine, maybe? But that's about it. I remember there's a typewriter that was used to incriminate him and it wasn't it was perhaps circumstantial evidence, but that's about all I know.

Studs Terkel Any other-

Unidentified Male 2 He was with the Red Scare. And that's about

Studs Terkel Do you recall any other name connected with Hiss?

Unidentified Male 2 Nixon. McCarthy.

Studs Terkel Does the name Whittaker Chambers mean

Unidentified Male 2 Yeah. Yeah sure. Was he a Journalist? Who was red baiting at the time.

Studs Terkel Remember the nature of his, the circumstances-

Unidentified Male 2 No-

Studs Terkel Involving Whittaker Chambers-

Unidentified Male 2 No. I just remember that the whole thing was kind of a specious argument. But that, that's that.

Studs Terkel So when you hear the name Alger Hiss today, what is the first reaction?

Unidentified Male 2 I I think of it as being sort of a government frameup, trying to find a scapegoat.

Unidentified Male 3 Well at first it it took me a minute, and this is the truth. I I thought the other name's familiar and then I I think he was arrested as a spy. I think in New York. A big ringleader or something, supposedly. Because I remember he looked like anybody else. Very average.

Studs Terkel The name Hiss today would evoke what?

Unidentified Male 3 I don't know. He he was a little, you know I don't remem- what my memories of him come from the few months ago they had on TV the movie, "The FBI Story."

Studs Terkel Ah ha.

Unidentified Male 3 And he was mentioned

Studs Terkel He was mentioned in there. So that's it. So when you hear the name today, what do you think of? I think, yeah.

Unidentified Male 3 Nothing in particular-

Studs Terkel I'm gonna try someone from another generation.

Lois Baum Yeah, it's, I mean, it's an unpleasant memory, and it has to do with the McCarthy period. And he was suspected, I think, of being a spy. And it it really is an unpleasant memory.

Studs Terkel You don't remember the case? Was it, was there a case involving him,

Lois Baum Yeah, well there was a lot of big to-do.

Studs Terkel Do you recall-

Lois Baum That's about all I can

Studs Terkel When you hear the name today, what is the emotion evoked?

Lois Baum Suspicion.

Studs Terkel Yeah

Unidentified Female 6 The name sounds familiar, but I don't remember what he did. I mean I've heard about him. Yeah,

Studs Terkel Yeah, well is there any particular feeling when you hear the name?

Unidentified Female 6 Let's see, what- I know it's not a good name, I mean, it isn't. But, from the 50s that all I remember.

Unidentified Male 4 I was just thinking was he one of, was-was he one of the prisoners that was released, possibly.

Studs Terkel No.

Unidentified Male 4 I'm wrong. All right.

Studs Terkel You mean, you think he might have one of the P.O.W.s,

Unidentified Male 4 Yeah. Yeah.

Studs Terkel No.

Unidentified Male 5 Well I remember the name, something back in the 50s or so. Something about being convicted as a spy for giving, I think, it was atomic secrets to Russia, or something like that. But I don't remember much about it because I was in a small town and we just took it for granted, that was it. And we didn't think anymore of it. I mean the guy's a commie or something and that was it. That's all I remember. And I remember McCarthy had something to do with or in that era anyway. And then he went into some kind of Communist hunting hunting, you know, for everybody who was [slight in?] association or something. And I was very agreeable at the time. I came from a small town, it was very, very conservative. Boy, go get 'em, you know. And I remember very little, I mean, the reason I, you know, don't remember very much, we just took it for granted anything they did was, you know. They found a communist or giving a give them the business, that's it. And I agree with a lot of things until I found out a little bit about life. When MacArthur was kicked out of Korea, you know, I agreed with MacArthur, you know. Because I found out a little bit more about what [is and isn't?]. We're just not fed anything but what they wanted us to-

Studs Terkel So if I say the name Alger Hiss to you now what would it mean emotionally?

Unidentified Male 5 Well I have to think now it's, might be substantially different because I see things happening today where, if you don't agree with somebody, you can be either somebody tries to discredit you or you don't get anywhere, you're beating your head against a wall. You don't get any, you don't know why. And if you don't agree with the system, you just don't get anywhere. I've learned a lot about life since those days in that little town.

Unidentified Male 6 Well, he's very fam- I mean, he's very famous.

Studs Terkel Well, in what way?

Unidentified Male 6 Well, he was convicted of perjury in in connection with, with Whittaker Chambers or on the witness of Whittaker Chambers. In, God, I don't know '50, '51, something like that. And and well, and, you know, he's proclaimed his innocence ever since. That's all, you know [unintelligible].

Studs Terkel So you remember how it began or the basis of it?

Unidentified Male Well, you mean the Pumpkin Papers and things like that?

Unidentified Female 7 I'm

Studs Terkel 26. If I say to you the name Alger Hiss, what does that mean?

Unidentified Female 7 He was a communist something. That's about it. I know he was like the communist spy or something but I have, I don't recall much about him or at what time.

Studs Terkel You don't know when or-

Unidentified Female 7 Probably go back to the 50s 'cause I don't really remember much about it.

Studs Terkel How did you get the idea that he was that?

Unidentified Female 7 I've heard- oh, cause I've heard their name many times. I guess it's through school or something like

Studs Terkel Yeah do you remember where you heard the name?

Unidentified Female 7 Well obviously in school.

Studs Terkel I say the name Alger Hiss to you. What does that mean?

Unidentified Female 8 I think first of the then Senator Nixon. Who, in my impression, largely made his career yelling about Alger Hiss being a communist. Hiss, I believe, worked in the State Department, and this would have been about 1948. Close as I can get.

Studs Terkel Now you're- I would guess late 40's, something like that. Mid 40's.

Unidentified Male 7 Or early 50's. I remember the name very much. Time of the Julius Rosenberg trial I believe. He was involved whether he was involved or not, I really don't- don't remember that much about it, but I think he got a lot of bad publicity at the time. And I think McCarthyism was involved at that time and I think that was part of the reason the man got the publicity he got, am I right? Do I recall well enough

Studs Terkel I'd say good enough. Yeah. Do you- so what's your emotion? What is your feeling now when you hear the name?

Unidentified Male 7 Nothing bad at all, really. At the time I think at the time, I may have, but I don't think I do today.

Studs Terkel So you mentioned McCarthyism, that's interesting, yeah.

Unidentified Male 7 I think that was at the time when lots of people got some bad publicity whether they were necessarily bad or not. I don't know.

Studs Terkel Now if I say a name to you, your first reaction. Alger Hiss.

Unidentified Female 9 Richard Nixon.

Studs Terkel Okay. Why why do you say that?

Unidentified Female 9 It to me it's back in the McCarthy era.

Studs Terkel Well do you recall anything about-

Unidentified Female 9 Very little. Very little.

Studs Terkel Was there-

Unidentified Female 9 I just went to see the case of Oppenheimer at the Goodman, which filled in that. I didn't know about that. So-

Studs Terkel Was there a case involving Alger Hiss?

Unidentified Female 9 There was, but I can't tell you much about

Studs Terkel You don't recall, what it was.

Unidentified Female 9 No it's

Studs Terkel Any- why do you associate Nixon with it? Why, what's Nixon?

Unidentified Female 9 That was that whole era. Why I did, I don't know. I think it's my reaction after seeing the Oppenheimer thing was that, the thing, the whole attitude is still prevalent.

Studs Terkel At the

Unidentified Female 9 The suspicion and the the accusing and the and it was what? Around the time of McCarthy and,

Studs Terkel [unintelligible] pretty good.

Unidentified Female 9 -he was he wasn't with Anna Rosenberg, was he? That's a different thing.

Studs Terkel With who?

Unidentified Female 9 The Rosenbergs.

Studs Terkel Now what's the first name you mentioned?

Unidentified Female 9 Anna.

Studs Terkel Who was Anna Rosenberg?

Unidentified Female 9 She was tried as giving away secrets to the Russians, as I remember. I'm not positive.

Studs Terkel Anna Ro- You said Anna.

Unidentified Female 9 Wasn't it?

Studs Terkel That's interesting. It was Ethel, but that's all

Unidentified Female 9 Ethel. Okay.

Studs Terkel That's okay. Anna was a member of Roosevelt's New Deal Administration.

Unidentified Female 9 Oh.

Studs Terkel You weren't, that's interesting. Do you know what happened to her?

Unidentified Female 9 No.

Studs Terkel Ethel Rosenberg.

Unidentified Female 9 Uh-uh.

Studs Terkel You don't recall?

Unidentified Female 9 I really

Studs Terkel There was a case involving Rosenberg, is that right?

Unidentified Female 9 As far as, well what those things were when I I grew up in a, I grew up very sheltered and very much in a conservative, medium-sized town in the Midwest, and these people did not seem real, at all.

Studs Terkel These people. [unintelligible]-

Unidentified Female 9 Meaning Alger Hiss or Ethel Rosenberg or-

Studs Terkel Wait just a second [unintelligible] or-

Unidentified Female 9 J. Robert Oppenheimer.

Studs Terkel Didn't seem real,

Unidentified Female 9 They did not seem real at 12. And I went to a private college that was very conservative, and I started to learn about the world and what had happened. And I started to work for a newspaper. So-

Studs Terkel Well-

Unidentified Female 9 I'm embarrassed as hell about

Studs Terkel No. No. No.

Unidentified Female 9 Cause that's really a void in my

Studs Terkel It's not you who should be embarrassed, but rather this is my editorial now after having many voices, the nature of the media and what they've done to us.

Unidentified Female 10 Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author?

Studs Terkel Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author? Voices you've been hearing, and I'm sitting opposite the hero, villain of these voices. Alger Hiss is seated here. He has just, a book has been re-published, a book he wrote several years ago. His reflections concerning his case and his conviction in the court of public opinion. Harper Colophon books. Alger Hiss, you're seated here right now and you're smiling and, maybe you're sad or happy in hearing these thoughts, your reflections.

Alger Hiss When you just said that you thought the media were largely responsible. I noticed several of the people who spoke, spoke of their schooling as responsible. Maybe it's not easy to separate the media from the schools, but I think our schooling for many, many years on all important issues, I'm not referring to myself as important, but on the Cold War, on the origins of what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex and what it stood for. I think our schooling was very deficient. Then a big change and I think young people today who are in college or have recently been to college, all over the country, small colleges as well as big colleges, have a very different, more involved and more, I think, accurate sense of what's going on.

Studs Terkel I was thinking, as you talked, you heard a variety of voices, there was some humorous. One, I'm thinking also about what history and memory does, and the distortion of history and sensationalism. Like, one thought you were Black.

Alger Hiss I thought that was an honor. During the New Deal, people thought I was Jewish and I was pleased to have that

Studs Terkel I take it you are, if I may just say so, Alger's of an old, old WASP family.

Alger Hiss I'm a WASP.

Studs Terkel And so is his son. And that's a couple of years ago, and Tony Hiss, Alger Hiss' son, has just written this book "Laughing Last." And your thoughts on hearing both your father's voice and those primarily, predominately young people.

Tony Hiss That was fascinating to me, Studs. It's the one question I've never been able to ask anybody since I'm a Hiss. But this is what happens to people. They hear a little about something, they are either taken in by it, they forget about it, they learn something else, and they can figure something else out. I was very pleased to hear that.

Studs Terkel I'm thinking of you and this book and your father, Alger. And this is you were very little kid at the time-

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel of the trials and tribulations.

Tony Hiss Seven, eight, nine, 10.

Studs Terkel Seven, eight, nine, 10. What are your memories? The book is a very personal one.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel Most of it is conversations with your father and his remembering, isn't it?

Tony Hiss Yeah. And what I found out by talking to a lot of friends of his and family members. It's really not a political book, in many ways. I think I wrote it because I thought, to me he's always been a person, not a figure in a case. And not either a Benedict Arnold or a martyr. Just a guy, and I thought if I could find out everything I could find out, and put that in a book, it would give people a chance maybe to make up their own minds. Knowing a person, they might be able to figure out this case.

Studs Terkel And how he became- perhaps we should, if you could very briefly and succinctly as you can, set the case up, because, your book reveals so much, to me, about the character of this man and how, to me, this guy was a natural-

Tony Hiss Oh. definitely.

Studs Terkel -as a patsy.

Tony Hiss Definitely.

Studs Terkel And suppose you set very quickly the case, the time, and then onto your book, and this particular man who was convicted of perjury.

Tony Hiss Well I found out, see, I think I got to know him a lot better writin' this book. And I found out that he was always being set up for things throughout his years in the New Deal service. He was in the government from 1933 to 1946, and whenever the shrewd guys, the ones on the make, the ones with a career to protect, didn't want to do something, they would let someone like Al, a good, decent, hardworking, blind fool do it. This came up time and time again.

Studs Terkel In your book there are so many instances of this.

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel We should point out that he came out of Harvard, or first this upper-class WASP family and there is a whole background history of the family and then-

Tony Hiss Very straight-laced.

Studs Terkel Straight-laced. And he was quite straight-laced indeed.

Tony Hiss Oh yeah, very tight tightly buttoned up I would say.

Studs Terkel A law clerk for Oliver Wendell Holmes and now the New Deal, something very exciting is happening in Washington. Roosevelt and immediately he's plunged right smack in the middle of things.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel He's with the Triple A.

Tony Hiss The farm agency. That was paying money to the sharecroppers or to the big plantation owners not to plant cotton, and that was the first big squabble he got in the middle of. Should they play the pen- pay the plantation owners or pay the sharecroppers?

Studs Terkel And right there he makes enemies. That is-

Tony Hiss Always

Studs Terkel big shots because he- I described him in a [unintelligible] as a Candide.

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel Open [unintelligible] open. And he's, well sure. And so, here's a sequence, perhaps your comments. On page 79, "Young Alger Hiss working for the Triple A," and he's, the two of them, as an older guy, worked on some opinion together on page 79.

Tony Hiss Oh yeah that's [unintelligible]

Studs Terkel And Al deferentially handed over to his friend for a special signature, this guy's superior. "Uh-uh," said the guy. "You sign it. I got a kid in school, fifteen thousand dollar mortgage, and I've got to be here after you guys are gone. It's a very controversial matter there. It's not I don't believe in it, but I'd sign it if it was only to get it through. But under the circumstances, you sign it." Al signed happily. "We don't give a f-," as he says.

Tony Hiss Right. That's right. Well that's the way they felt. There was a political appointment in the office. Jimmy Burns, who later became a Supreme Court Justice and Secretary of State, got his sister on the payroll. And Al and some of the other young guys went around saying she wasn't doing any work. And so she started telling the FBI that they were commies. So as early as 1933 he was being denounced as a commie because he wasn't saying the right things. Then later on he worked for a Senate Committee investigating munitions. It was called the Nye committee.

Studs Terkel The Nye Committee.

Tony Hiss And he was the sort of Sam Dash of that committee, the counsel of the committee. And that's where he actually met Whittaker Chambers. I'll get into that in a minute, but one of the important witnesses was Bernard Baruch who was a big shot, a financier. The senators treated him very deferentially on the same time they had a lot of hot questions to ask him. They didn't ask him. They gave the questions to Al. Al asked him. Baruch was very affronted he was being treated like this, as soon as he got off the stand, he started going around Washington saying "That young man is a communist."

Studs Terkel We should point out that Bernard Baruch was a sacred name. He was the man sat on the bench, give adviser to presidents, and Alger Hiss, the young attorney for this committee investigating munitions during World War I, is in questioning this guy, givin' him a pretty rough grilling. No one does that.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel You see this is this is the guy he's always putting his, where angels indeed-

Tony Hiss Fear to tread.

Studs Terkel fear to tread. He's just leaping in.

Tony Hiss That's right. But so he was accumulating enemies, but at the same time I think the lesson of the whole story is that eventually the shrewd who used people like this out shrewd themselves, because, that's why I call the book "Laughing Last." My dad's in good shape these days. He's running around giving college lectures, having a good time. And the man who climbed to fame over his falling body is sulking in San Clemente.

Studs Terkel And but- we'll ask you about Hiss today, and the question I've asked, so how was he able to maintain his sanity and his equanimity? But more of that- I suppose because he is this Candide figure.

Tony Hiss Well, also there is another side to it, which I go into in the book. I think he went to jail to get away from my mom, and it was the first time he'd gotten out of the house and he was the kind of guy who was very loyal. He married a rigid woman, like his mother. And he could never have brought himself to leave her unless federal marshals had dragged them outside the door, which is what happened. So, ironically, he went to jail, and he started loosening up, and getting happy, made friends with the Italian cons in there. They said, "Alger. What kind of name is that for a man? we'll call you Al. Alberto." And he found they were the only guys who were serving time and maintaining their own honor and dignity and humanity.

Studs Terkel By the way he spent 44 months in the federal

Tony Hiss And as he says, "44 months in the can is a good corrective to three years at Harvard."

Studs Terkel I'm thinking thogh- well, for those who may not know the case, I'm thinking about the younger

Tony Hiss Oh yeah. Let's set it up.

Studs Terkel You've heard. Let's set this up after we have this pause, this cliffhanger. After this message, we'll return to Tony Hiss, his book "Laughing Last", that says, to me, far, far more about a certain person and circumstance than any legal brief ever could, or any investigative, young college professor gathering details gets. We'll come to this in a moment, after this message. [pause in recording] So resuming the conversation with Tony Hiss on "Laughing Last." No- briefly.

Tony Hiss Well, I think if there's any lesson here politically it's that you've got to watch your step, and that, if you befriend a hippie, you lend him your typewriter, and later some scoundrel wants to run for office, you can get into trouble no matter what your politics are. What happened in Dad's case was, when he was counsel to the Senate committee we were talking about, a nondescript, down and out, fat journalist with bad teeth came up said he was- name was George Crosley. Said Al was doing wonderful work. And by the way his wife and kids needed a place to stay, and Al was a sucker for people like this, and started giving him handouts-

Studs Terkel You point out [by?] the parenthetically Al, Al just loves to visit people in the hospital.

Tony Hiss Oh, yes.

Studs Terkel Somehow there's a crazy, goofy streak in him. He feel's

Tony Hiss Oh, definitely. Makes him feel good, powerful to visit people in the hospital.

Studs Terkel And so if somebody's down and out- if ever there were a sucker, it's Alger Hiss.

Tony Hiss Oh, yeah. A natural.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Tony Hiss And finally, says to this guy, get lost, cause the guy never pays back any money. Now this guy is- happens to be- his real name is Whittaker Chambers. He's got 30 different aliases. In 1939, he starts going around Washington trying to sell somebody the story. He says, "I'm an ex communist and I know communist in the government and I want to expose them." For years he tries to sell this story. Nobody's gonna to listen to him because the people he's attacking are too high up in the government. People like Dean Acheson, who later became Secretary of State. Another guy named Adolph Berle who was an Assistant Secretary of State, at the time. He never gets an audience until 1948, the summer of 1948, when he appears as a witness before a Congressional Committee, the House Committee on Unamerican Activities, which was just disbanded a couple of years ago. Now, the reason they listen to him was- this was in a presidential election year, 1948. Republicans got control of Congress in 1946 for the first time since Hoover. They thought they had a sure winner with Dewey. Truman looked very vulnerable. They were looking for a hot election issue, and they decided to go after Communists in government. This was a hot issue because after World War II, the only two people- only two powers left standing on their feet were Russia and the U.S. So, naturally, there was some rivalry building up there-

Studs Terkel If I could just- an addendum here briefly. The Cold War itself had begun-

Tony Hiss Definitely-

Studs Terkel and the Democratic Party was quite as amenable and open to the red issue as the Republicans were to. It- the climate was set.

Tony Hiss Well, yeah. Dean Acheson himself had said to Al, my dad that at one point, "we've got to use this communism issue, Al. That if we don't scare Congress, they'll go fishing." To which Al, in one of his brighter moments, had said, "yeah but Dean, if you do scare them, they'll go crazy." A lot of people went crazy.

Studs Terkel So this was the climate.

Tony Hiss Alright. So then we have the witness, Chambers, and you have the forum, the Committee. Chambers by now is not attacking people high up in the government, he's attacking sort of middle level people like Al. He names eight or nine people. Only one of them demands the opportunity to rush down and deny these charges under oath. That's Al. None of the others ever appear. Nothing ever happens to them. So the committee has a nibble on the line. Now there's a third character here, a maverick, a young congressman named Richard Nixon, who had just won an election to Congress for the first time by smearing an incumbent Democrat as a commie. So he's got a good angle workin' for him. Sees no reason to go- to give it up. Al comes down, he denies the charges. He challenges Chambers to repeat his charges outside a congressional forum because you can't be sued for anything you say to Congress. Chambers does this on Meet the Press. Dad sues him for libel. Chambers now has his back to the wall.

Studs Terkel Again, parenthetical comment. The advisors, your father's lawyers, all gave- and I'll come to Stryker in a moment, Lloyd Stryker, whom he fired because he was too rough on the opposition.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel Coming back to your father's character again. Everybody advised him. Old friends, conservative friends, says ignore the-

Tony Hiss Don't go-

Studs Terkel These guys are discredited.

Tony Hiss Don't go near them.

Studs Terkel Ignore Chambers. Ignore HUAC. They're both disreputable phenomena.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel But, no. Alger says, I mean by God I'm going to sue him. And this is, again, we come to this character.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel He could not possibly believe, being the Candide that he is, that this is indeed the best of all possible worlds and the most open of all societies, that virtue wouldn't triumph.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel And he found out. So that's another thing. If he follows friends' advice, this thing would've fallen under its own weight.

Tony Hiss Definitely. You know, he'd have been a corporation president today, or something. But fortunately, he isn't. Frankly. I think would have been a complete-

Studs Terkel So he sued-

Tony Hiss Anyway, he sued Chambers. Chambers suddenly changes his tune, now. He had sworn Alger had been a member of a communist study group but not a spy. Now he says, "I lied. He was a spy." And he produces these State Department- copies of State Department documents which he claimed had been typed on an old typewriter at home by my mother. And also some famous microfilms which he produced dramatically from a pumpkin, hollowed out pumpkin, on his farm in Maryland. The middle the night, Nixon rushed back from a vacation, held up the microfilms, and was photographed with the microfilms and a magnifying glass by all the cameramen. There were five rolls. Two of them were introduced in a trials. They were sort of innocuous State Department documents that really could have come from anyone. The other three we never saw until a couple of years ago when the government released them and, one was clouded, the other two were Navy Department press releases, things like what color

Studs Terkel So these were the top secret documents-

Tony Hiss Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Nixon held them up and said, "I hold in my hands proof of the most treasonable conspiracy against the Republicans history."

Studs Terkel By the way, you point out these very innocuous documents, Hiss- in your book you point out- you find out that they lay around there anyway. There was a casual atmosphere-

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel In the State Department at that time. Anybody could pick these things up.

Tony Hiss Anybody could

Studs Terkel Because these weren't important to begin with.

Tony Hiss Right. It was only in the '60s, I talked to an old friend of dad's, who later became an ambassador in Africa, who said, "Oh sure. Everybody could have come in and when I-when they made me an ambassador, I couldn't understand how things had changed. I sent back a travelogue report to the State Department and my code man came in and said, 'Mr. Ambassador you didn't make that classified or restricted.' I said, well it's open information. He said, 'Everything we send out is restricted.'"

Studs Terkel Now the other key aspect of the case was the Woodstock typewriter.

Tony Hiss Yeah. Okay. Well again, just to finish the chronology, after this, Chambers's sensational charges, a grand jury was convened. Again, dad's advisers said, "you don't have to talk to this grand jury, and if you don't talk to them they can't indict you." Al said, "No, I must talk to them." Goes in and denies them, he's indicted on two charges of perjury. He goes to trial, federal trial, in New York. First trial ends in a hung jury-

Studs Terkel Oh, by this is Judge Kaufman-

Tony Hiss Judge

Studs Terkel I should point clear, not the Judge Kaufman of the Rosenberg case, but another Judge

Tony Hiss That's right.

Studs Terkel And he was replaced. Perhaps you could explain that

Tony Hiss a Yeah, Nixon- after the hung verdict, Nixon called for the impeachment of Kaufman saying he was a communist not to have gotten a guilty verdict. They did change judges and a very elderly judge who'd been appointed to the bench by Warren Harding took over. He-

Studs Terkel Judge Goddard.

Tony Hiss Judge Henry Goddard. He snoozed on the bench repeatedly during the trial. By this time the deck was stacked. They got a guilty verdict. The typewriter. Chambers charge was that Al had brought home documents to his Georgetown house in the middle of the night, mom would type 'em up, Chambers would come over, take 'em to Baltimore, get them photographed, bring them back. This these were charges that could have been pretty easily disproved if the trial had been in Washington because Georgetown was a very quiet, sleepy, little neighborhood. The houses they were living in at the time had paper thin walls. They'd been built as housing for nurses in the Civil War.

Studs Terkel So if a guy shouted and knocked, banged the doors, everybody would hear

Tony Hiss Well if a guy was typing in the middle of the night, you'd hear it.

Studs Terkel Now we gotta come back to Alger Hiss again. Why- aside from Washington, you have a step-brother. Alger

Tony Hiss Hiss'- A

Studs Terkel Alge- Alger Hiss' stepson.

Tony Hiss Stepson, right.

Studs Terkel Phyllis, your mother's, first marriage-

Tony Hiss Priscilla.

Studs Terkel [unintelligible] Priscilla.

Studs Terkel Yeah.

Studs Terkel And so, Tim. And Tim, your half-brother, was saying, "had Alger called on me I would've destroyed this guy."

Tony Hiss Right, Tim was

Studs Terkel I could describe the way these houses are built-

Tony Hiss And well he-

Studs Terkel Everybody would have comment and heard this noise.

Tony Hiss Not only that but Tim was living in the house at the time. He knew very well that this guy

Studs Terkel Now, why- see, to me I'm taken, of course, with your- with your portrait of Alger Hiss. Why didn't Hiss call on Tim?

Tony Hiss Well, Tim had been in the Navy in 1945, and had been thrown into the brig for a couple of days for a teenage gay episode. Al- it's alright to say this now, I think, because of Tim's come out in a book published last year. Al was sure that if he put Tim on the stand the FBI would bring this out, because the FBI let it be known that they were going around talking to all Tim's friends at the time of the trial. And Al, in order to protect his step- his stepson, refused to use the evidence that would have exonerated him.

Studs Terkel Now we come to the character- I'll return to the typewriter in a moment, and the two typewriter experts who built one like it. Alger Hiss, a friend of mine, an editor, distinguished American editors, would sooner go to the gallows and the electric chair than have a certain family scandal be revealed. And you point his sense of loyalty is such that, he indeed was an almost Victorian figure-

Tony Hiss Oh, yeah.

Studs Terkel A figure of another time.

Tony Hiss Well, it's ironic that he was charged with disloyalty to the government because loyalty was the key concept in his mind. Loyalty to his wife and his kids.

Studs Terkel The possibility, too, of something else he didn't want to come out about your mother long, long go.

Tony Hiss Yeah. Way back in 1929, before she married dad, had had an abortion. She was desperate not to have this come out so, again, that was another thing he- there was in fact a cover up going on, but it was a cover up just of family skeletons. But dad had been sitting on family skeletons for years. His dad had committed suicide when he was three. This was the way he was brought up by his mom.

Studs Terkel So this matter of family loyalty-

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel Even if he's going to be sent to the gallows.

Tony Hiss That's more important.

Studs Terkel So here we- so we come to the typewriter. That was the prosecutions-

Tony Hiss Right. Well, this is where they got him. Because this was an old typewriter that belonged to mom and her father before her and it had disa- they had given it away or something by the time these charges finally came up, because the charges were of course that he transmitted these documents in '38, and it's now '48. So Dad says, "if we can find the typewriter, we can prove that it wasn't a machine that typed these papers." So they go and they, after a long search, find what they think is the typewriter, they bring it into court. It's a defense exhibit. It blows up in their face because it proves to be the typewriter that did type these documents. They don't know what to do. It's only later they realize the possibility that this typewriter was a plant, a forged typewriter put there in order to hook 'em. And, well, now- now it's a lot more easy to figure this out. Not only has dad- does dad think he's found the guy who made this typewriter, but it's now known that the British Secret Service was using forged typewriters as early as 1941. They forged a typewriter, a letter from the Italians to the Brazilian government. Now this was in the earliest part of World War II, the Brazilians were leaning towards the Germans and the Italians, and this forged letter, forged typewritten letter, so embarrassed the Brazilian government that they had to back away from the Axis Powers. And the FBI knew about this kind of technology. And of course after Dad's trial, when they when he finally began to think straight again, he hired two typewriter experts-

Studs Terkel The Tytells.

Tony Hiss Pearl and Martin Tytell, who were able to build a typewriter, which the government pooh-poohed-

Studs Terkel By, this is one of most astonishing aspects in the case. They built a typewriter that was a replica-

Tony Hiss Oh.

Studs Terkel Exact of the one that convicted-

Tony Hiss A complete-

Studs Terkel Hiss, and one of the prosecutors said, "this is a fantastic job."

Tony Hiss Yeah. Off the record, he said this to the Tytells, he wouldn't say it in court. In court they pooh-poohed this whole possibility, but- and call it a Rube Goldberg. Subsequently, he ran into Pearl Tytell and said to her, "you people did a phenomenal job, a fantastic job."

Studs Terkel But Judge Goddard refused to allow an appeal on the basis of this new evidence.

Tony Hiss Oh yeah. He said they said it was immaterial. So dad went to jail. And he got out. And he's been doing all right.

Studs Terkel We got to continue more of this-

Tony Hiss OK.

Studs Terkel Because it's the character of Hiss, and quite frankly, I say, "this could have been me." If this is a guy, if- I see a certain innocent, he far more innocent than I am. He's so open, that he does certain things that a guy with a closed mind would never dream of doing. I'm thinking of Hiss and Nixon. Hiss gave this guy, Crosley, this nondescript guy, the car. [unintelligible]. He wouldn't give that guy the car unless he we- unless he were a, an intimate of his, and it was a car worth 25 bucks.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel I had done that, I think I would have. I did similar things like that, I think. Others I know would have done that. Not worth a damn, this guy comes along with a sobs- Oh, sure. Now that's a study of two kinds of Americans, I think. One who's absolutely open and thus a sucker, and the others not gonna give a sucker an even break.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel One is closed. So one would represent, to me, dream is an open society. The other would assume this is a closed society. And to me, this case is, aside from the tragedy to Alger Hiss. But he recoups very well indeed. It's a metaphor, indeed, for our society.

Tony Hiss Oh yeah. I think it's pretty clear. And I think it's a picture of the way government works. And it's- it's too bad that it works that way, but what are you gonna to do.

Studs Terkel We have to come to- that's what your father was saying, that there are guys who are- that, good guys, you know, get chopped down, do their work, but now and then the [unintelligible] is, they got it too. But I come to something- to certain circumstances. There were a cup- a number of witnesses for Hiss, and among them were two who were Supreme Court. One became later. Were Stanley Reed and Felix Frankfurter.

Tony Hiss Yeah they were

Studs Terkel And as a result of their being witnesses for Hiss, they could not-

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel Sit on the appeal, wasn't that it?

Tony Hiss Yup. That's

Studs Terkel 'Suppose you explain that?

Tony Hiss They were character witnesses in his trial, so they had to disqualify him- themselves when the case came for review before the Supreme Court. As a result of that, the court voted not to take the case. If they'd been on the bench they would have accepted the case. Justice Douglas has said in his book that he is sure the Supreme Court could not have sustained his convictions because, by the nature of the of the evidentiary procedures in a libel and of perjury case, you cannot get a conviction unless you have a reliable witness- two reliable witnesses or one reliable witness and overwhelming evidence. And, of course, Chambers was a self-confessed perjurer, and he was the witness.

Studs Terkel Why don't you read this is quote. This is William O. Douglas. His biography that came out- his autobiography came out a few years ago. "Go East Young Man." And perhaps this- this passage about his case.

Tony Hiss This is Justice Douglas talking. "Certain it is that the inference that Hiss was framed was strong. The case illustrates the wisdom of having two witnesses on a perjury charge, or if there is only one as in the Hiss case, that the court ride herd on the nature of the corroborative evidence to make certain that it has trustworthy character which will prevent one accused of perjury from being framed. In my view no court at any time could possibly have sustained the conviction."

Studs Terkel And then further he says and this this part of it, about the impact of the case itself.

Tony Hiss "The result of the Hiss case was to exalt the informer, who in Anglo-American history has had an odious history. Gave agencies of the federal government unparalleled power over the private lives of citizens. It initiated the regime of sheeplike conformity by intimidating the curiosity and idealism of our youth." Now another place in the book he says- because Douglas was the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission before he went on the bench, and he at one time offered Al a job, when Al was a young lawyer in the New Deal. And he says it would be interesting to speculate what might have happened to Hiss, if Hiss had come in with him and gotten interested in regulating big business instead of going into the State Department and worrying about foreign policy.

Studs Terkel And one- in one case the DuPonts.

Both [Unintelligible]

Studs Terkel When he was attorney for the Nye committee.

Tony Hiss That's right. They offered him a job to get them off the hook. So that's right, he might have been a retired DuPont vice president today-

Studs Terkel [laughter]

Tony Hiss Living in Wilmington, Delaware.

Studs Terkel He wouldn't have been the Alger Hiss he is. St. George. There's a sequence here about- he's gonna follow- everyone says, forget the case. John W. Davis, by the way, very distinguished Wall Street lawyer, a very conservative, Democratic candidate for president in 1924, advised Alger Hiss, just forget it. It's kind of fun- But no by God he suddenly, he is St. George.

Tony Hiss Right.

Studs Terkel As again.

Tony Hiss Well also he thought, "I'm a lawyer, if we can get this into a court, we'll get it cleared up because-"

Studs Terkel So here- you now, after all these years, Tony Hiss and this portrait of your father. And you heard those young voices the beginning of this program. Your thoughts. Do you remember when you were a little kid? You were little and your father's name was in all the headlines, and this- and name became a pejorative word.

Tony Hiss Yeah sure. I didn't know what to think for a while. Didn't know, was I good? Was I bad? Was he good? Was he bad? I liked him. I wasn't sure whether he liked me 'cause he was as I say pretty tightly buttoned up in those days. Nothing ever bad really ever happened to me materially. I stayed in the school I was going to. Nobody beat me up in a schoolyard because I was a dirty commie. But it was pretty confusing there for a while.

Studs Terkel I'm thinking of those young voices we hear today. You know you know those- at the very beginning. The name a new meaning at all or else-

Tony Hiss Why should it have any meaning for them? I mean, it seems to me that, to me it's an interesting story. One, because it says something about what can happen to blind, good, working, decent, hardworking, good decent people in the government, getting used-

Studs Terkel Hardworking fools.

Tony Hiss Fools. Right. For another, because, a personal story- that here was a guy who was cooked by a scoundrel, but for him, it was an opportunity and not a catastrophe. His career was in ruins. He was going off to federal prison. But he's a much happier man as a result of it because it got him out of a very difficult marriage that he was caught in and strapped to by standards that he'd been brought up to believe in, and had to believe in at the expense of his own happiness.

Studs Terkel By the way he's been- he has- he was once disbarred, but he is now, I think the Massachusetts Bar Association?

Tony Hiss Yeah. Oh yes, he's really been vindicated.

Studs Terkel Vindicated. Yeah.

Tony Hiss He got

Studs Terkel The Massachusetts Bar association gave him back his license to practice-

Tony Hiss That's right. And that was the- but

Studs Terkel But he's been selling- for a long time he was selling

Tony Hiss He still stellson- sells some stationery in New York. He was- he was the first disbarred lawyer ever to be readmitted to the Bar in Massachusetts in 200 years. He does some college lecturing. He still sells some stationery, he says- he's been a pretty good salesman because he would call people up and say, "I'd like to sell you some stationery, my name is Alger Hiss." And he said they always see him when he said that. They wouldn't always buy, but they always give

Studs Terkel I must tell a story. Alger Hiss the celebrity- that is, celebrity not to the young, who don't know him, but celebrity to those who are his contemporaries or mine. For better or for worse, a celebrity. "Alger Hiss that dirty so-and-so traitor." "Oh that guy Hiss." But, known. So when he was here several years ago, we went to the Palmer House, and he wanted to stay at the Palmer House, and he wanted to go see a symphony that night 'cause he-

Tony Hiss Of course.

Studs Terkel and- and-

Tony Hiss Go to the art museum.

Studs Terkel And the art museum. But, he had to see the credit manager who is- so the credit manager, who is a contemporary, looks up, says, "Alger Hiss." And so I say, "does that name ring a bell?" "Indeed it does. You know we had it last week, Shep Fields and Rippling Rhythm."

Tony Hiss [Laughter] Right, well-

Studs Terkel So, it doesn't ma- [laughter]. He's a celebrity.

Tony Hiss It's mythology, right?

Studs Terkel Well I gotta to come to one other question, and it's one that always [confused me?]. There are intellectuals, liberals intellectuals, who absolutely convinced of Hiss' guilt. In fact their lives are dependent on him. Thinking of Do- the late Lionel Trilling and his wife Diana Trilling-

Tony Hiss Mmm-hmm

Studs Terkel and Dwight MacDonald, whom I respect, and you had Gore Vidal some time because, "oh yeah, he's guilty." I said, "how do you know?" "Oh, he is." Murray Kempton, who I admire very much indeed. Now, how would you explain that?

Tony Hiss I don't know, Studs. Most of them, or a lot of them are eff- ex-left wingers who are- have been running scared since the late '40s. You know-

Studs Terkel Those

Tony Hiss

Studs Terkel There are certain trigger words in the American language. A trigger word would be Wall Street, nigger, Jew, commie. These are trigger words. These are words that set people's emotions going. I think of all the American names, Nixon's a trigger word, Richard Nixon. But equally much a trigger word Richard Nixon, is someone who Nixon knew or didn't know but someone whom Nixon used, Alger Hiss. As soon the name Alger Hiss is mentioned, to people of a certain age, I should point out, somebody just shouts one way or the other, "Traitor," "Hiss traitor," someone says "framed." "Laughing Last" is a book about Alger Hiss that tells me what it's all about far more than any legal brief ever could. And it's written by Tony Hiss, his son. "Laughing Lass- Last Alger Hiss: A Story" by Tony Hiss, and it's published by- who is the publisher Houghton Mifflin. Houghton Mifflin. And Tony Hiss is a journalist, writes for The New Yorker Magazine, and you'll recall E.M. Frimbo, the great railroad man his name Rogers Whitaker did a book about railroads and his collaborator, collaborator- Yep. was Tony Hiss and he's my guest this morning. And it's a profile, a portrait of Alger Hiss, and in a way you perhaps should judge yourself. Those of you who've been following the case, and how do you follow that case, what are your sources? And there have been books about it, pro and con, that has some saying he's guilty others saying-proving that he's innocent. Each one saying that and you judge. [And you?] must remember the time in which the trial was held, by the way, was Richard Nixon who came to fame and to glory of some sort as a result of his prosecution of Alger Hiss. So in a moment, Tony Hiss and "Laughing Last" after this message. When your father was visiting Chicago a few years ago, his book was reissued, "In the Court of Public Opinion." Right. I tried an experiment. Yeah. And I asked some of the young people working around this station, you know. When was the Hiss case? What year? Roughly? It started in '48. lasted through '51. Something like- to '51. So some 27 years ago. Yeah. Asked young people in the 20's, some 30's, who is Alger Hiss? Let's see, let's see what came out. I say to you the name Alger Hiss, what's that mean? Nothing. Nothing. Doesn't ring a Doesn't ring any bell Nothing. Alger Hiss. It doesn't, at No I'm not familiar with that name at all. No. How old would you be, by the way? 25 25. The name Alger Hiss. I don't know. It it vaguely means something political to me. But that's all? Yes. [unintelligible] She's some relation to Horatio Alger. If I say to you- Hora- Horatio Alger? She's some relation Oh, No, what I was gonna say is I think I've read the person's name in the news lately, but I, I can't, I can't- Yeah. remember exactly. You don't recall. How old are you? 26. Alger Hiss, what's that name mean to you? Dirty commie spy. That's what I've always thought about him. Yeah. When did you, how did you know? How did As a kid, he was the prototype of of this sort of undercover, sneaky person. You know. You gotta be careful not to trust anybody who they're like him. People who look like him. Yeah. You know what he looks like? He was kind of nice looking as I recall. Didn't he have a mustache? No- I dont know if he did or not- But vaguely, what you think he looked like, if you remember. He was medium height, maybe 5 10. I thought he had kind of graying hair as I recall. Maybe it's just from seeing his pictures in the newspaper that he looked like that. But I was very young at the time- Yeah. Well [when I say the name?] Alger Hiss now, what does it mean The same thing. Yeah. Actually. Yeah I, I sort of get him mixed up with that woman. What was her name? Rosenberg. They were all sort of around the same time it seemed to me- The in my mind. Yeah. Who-What happened to them, do you know? Well, no- What happened to the Rosenbergs- I just remember they had a trial and it was a big thing in the newspapers. You know what happened to them. No. Do they get killed? [laughter] I can't remember. I was just you know in grammar school. But as the names come up today, you associate the two- These are just real evil people that were exposed. That's where it is today, you read nothing further about them. No. No. To me it brings up the witch hunting of the 50's. I think he was a, he was a lower echelon, maybe not a clerk, but someone in the State Department, who I I have the feeling was was framed largely because he was Black and liberal- Because he was Black and liberal. Yeah. And I know that Nixon was involved in it and came off with a dirty face, and I don't remember too much- I don't know too much else about it. Except that his name was linked with McCarthyism and generally that he was a scapegoat. What does he look like? Do you remember? I remember he was very light. I didn't know he was Black until I read it. That's all. Yeah. That's about it. Where'd you read the news that he was Black? I don't know. Life Magazine, maybe? But that's about it. I remember there's a typewriter that was used to incriminate him and it wasn't it was perhaps circumstantial evidence, but that's about all I know. Any other- He was with the Red Scare. And that's about it. Do you recall any other name connected with Hiss? Nixon. McCarthy. Does the name Whittaker Chambers mean anything Yeah. Yeah sure. Was he a Journalist? Who was red baiting at the time. Remember the nature of his, the circumstances- No- Involving Whittaker Chambers- No. I just remember that the whole thing was kind of a specious argument. But that, that's that. So when you hear the name Alger Hiss today, what is the first reaction? I I think of it as being sort of a government frameup, trying to find a scapegoat. Well at first it it took me a minute, and this is the truth. I I thought the other name's familiar and then I I think he was arrested as a spy. I think in New York. A big ringleader or something, supposedly. Because I remember he looked like anybody else. Very average. The name Hiss today would evoke what? I don't know. He he was a little, you know I don't remem- what my memories of him come from the few months ago they had on TV the movie, "The FBI Story." Ah ha. And he was mentioned He was mentioned in there. So that's it. So when you hear the name today, what do you think of? I think, yeah. Nothing in particular- I'm gonna try someone from another generation. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's an unpleasant memory, and it has to do with the McCarthy period. And he was suspected, I think, of being a spy. And it it really is an unpleasant memory. You don't remember the case? Was it, was there a case involving him, do Yeah, well there was a lot of big to-do. Do you recall- That's about all I can remember When you hear the name today, what is the emotion evoked? Suspicion. Yeah The name sounds familiar, but I don't remember what he did. I mean I've heard about him. Yeah, well is there any particular feeling when you hear the name? Let's see, what- I know it's not a good name, I mean, it isn't. But, from the 50s that all I remember. I was just thinking was he one of, was-was he one of the prisoners that was released, possibly. No. I'm wrong. All right. You mean, you think he might have one of the P.O.W.s, Yeah. Yeah. No. Well I remember the name, something back in the 50s or so. Something about being convicted as a spy for giving, I think, it was atomic secrets to Russia, or something like that. But I don't remember much about it because I was in a small town and we just took it for granted, that was it. And we didn't think anymore of it. I mean the guy's a commie or something and that was it. That's all I remember. And I remember McCarthy had something to do with or in that era anyway. And then he went into some kind of Communist hunting hunting, you know, for everybody who was [slight in?] association or something. And I was very agreeable at the time. I came from a small town, it was very, very conservative. Boy, go get 'em, you know. And I remember very little, I mean, the reason I, you know, don't remember very much, we just took it for granted anything they did was, you know. They found a communist or giving a give them the business, that's it. And I agree with a lot of things until I found out a little bit about life. When MacArthur was kicked out of Korea, you know, I agreed with MacArthur, you know. Because I found out a little bit more about what [is and isn't?]. We're just not fed anything but what they wanted us to- So if I say the name Alger Hiss to you now what would it mean emotionally? Well I have to think now it's, might be substantially different because I see things happening today where, if you don't agree with somebody, you can be either somebody tries to discredit you or you don't get anywhere, you're beating your head against a wall. You don't get any, you don't know why. And if you don't agree with the system, you just don't get anywhere. I've learned a lot about life since those days in that little town. Well, he's very fam- I mean, he's very famous. Well, in what way? Well, he was convicted of perjury in in connection with, with Whittaker Chambers or on the witness of Whittaker Chambers. In, God, I don't know '50, '51, something like that. And and well, and, you know, he's proclaimed his innocence ever since. That's all, you know [unintelligible]. So you remember how it began or the basis of it? Well, you mean the Pumpkin Papers and things like that? I'm 26. If I say to you the name Alger Hiss, what does that mean? He was a communist something. That's about it. I know he was like the communist spy or something but I have, I don't recall much about him or at what time. I You don't know when or- Probably go back to the 50s 'cause I don't really remember much about it. How did you get the idea that he was that? I've heard- oh, cause I've heard their name many times. I guess it's through school or something like that Yeah do you remember where you heard the name? Well obviously in school. I say the name Alger Hiss to you. What does that mean? I think first of the then Senator Nixon. Who, in my impression, largely made his career yelling about Alger Hiss being a communist. Hiss, I believe, worked in the State Department, and this would have been about 1948. Close as I can get. Now you're- I would guess late 40's, something like that. Mid 40's. Or early 50's. I remember the name very much. Time of the Julius Rosenberg trial I believe. He was involved whether he was involved or not, I really don't- don't remember that much about it, but I think he got a lot of bad publicity at the time. And I think McCarthyism was involved at that time and I think that was part of the reason the man got the publicity he got, am I right? Do I recall well enough would I'd say good enough. Yeah. Do you- so what's your emotion? What is your feeling now when you hear the name? Nothing bad at all, really. At the time I think at the time, I may have, but I don't think I do today. So you mentioned McCarthyism, that's interesting, yeah. I think that was at the time when lots of people got some bad publicity whether they were necessarily bad or not. I don't know. Now if I say a name to you, your first reaction. Alger Hiss. Richard Nixon. Okay. Why why do you say that? It to me it's back in the McCarthy era. Well do you recall anything about- Very little. Very little. Was there- I just went to see the case of Oppenheimer at the Goodman, which filled in that. I didn't know about that. So- Was there a case involving Alger Hiss? There was, but I can't tell you much about it. You don't recall, what it was. No it's [unintelligible] Any- why do you associate Nixon with it? Why, what's Nixon? That was that whole era. Why I did, I don't know. I think it's my reaction after seeing the Oppenheimer thing was that, the thing, the whole attitude is still prevalent. At the time- The suspicion and the the accusing and the and it was what? Around the time of McCarthy and, [unintelligible] pretty good. -he was he wasn't with Anna Rosenberg, was he? That's a different thing. With who? The Rosenbergs. Now what's the first name you mentioned? Anna. Who was Anna Rosenberg? She was tried as giving away secrets to the Russians, as I remember. I'm not positive. Anna Ro- You said Anna. Wasn't it? That's interesting. It was Ethel, but that's all right. Ethel. Okay. That's okay. Anna was a member of Roosevelt's New Deal Administration. Oh. You weren't, that's interesting. Do you know what happened to her? No. Ethel Rosenberg. Uh-uh. You don't recall? I really don't- There was a case involving Rosenberg, is that right? As far as, well what those things were when I I grew up in a, I grew up very sheltered and very much in a conservative, medium-sized town in the Midwest, and these people did not seem real, at all. These people. [unintelligible]- Meaning Alger Hiss or Ethel Rosenberg or- Wait just a second [unintelligible] or- J. Robert Oppenheimer. Didn't seem real, you They did not seem real at 12. And I went to a private college that was very conservative, and I started to learn about the world and what had happened. And I started to work for a newspaper. So- Well- I'm embarrassed as hell about this- No. No. No. Cause that's really a void in my knowledge- It's not you who should be embarrassed, but rather this is my editorial now after having many voices, the nature of the media and what they've done to us. Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author? Who is Alger Hiss? Is that an author? Voices you've been hearing, and I'm sitting opposite the hero, villain of these voices. Alger Hiss is seated here. He has just, a book has been re-published, a book he wrote several years ago. His reflections concerning his case and his conviction in the court of public opinion. Harper Colophon books. Alger Hiss, you're seated here right now and you're smiling and, maybe you're sad or happy in hearing these thoughts, your reflections. When you just said that you thought the media were largely responsible. I noticed several of the people who spoke, spoke of their schooling as responsible. Maybe it's not easy to separate the media from the schools, but I think our schooling for many, many years on all important issues, I'm not referring to myself as important, but on the Cold War, on the origins of what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex and what it stood for. I think our schooling was very deficient. Then a big change and I think young people today who are in college or have recently been to college, all over the country, small colleges as well as big colleges, have a very different, more involved and more, I think, accurate sense of what's going on. I was thinking, as you talked, you heard a variety of voices, there was some humorous. One, I'm thinking also about what history and memory does, and the distortion of history and sensationalism. Like, one thought you were Black. I thought that was an honor. During the New Deal, people thought I was Jewish and I was pleased to have that because- I take it you are, if I may just say so, Alger's of an old, old WASP family. I'm a WASP. And so is his son. And that's a couple of years ago, and Tony Hiss, Alger Hiss' son, has just written this book "Laughing Last." And your thoughts on hearing both your father's voice and those primarily, predominately young people. That was fascinating to me, Studs. It's the one question I've never been able to ask anybody since I'm a Hiss. But this is what happens to people. They hear a little about something, they are either taken in by it, they forget about it, they learn something else, and they can figure something else out. I was very pleased to hear that. I'm thinking of you and this book and your father, Alger. And this is you were very little kid at the time- Yeah. of the trials and tribulations. Seven, eight, nine, 10. Seven, eight, nine, 10. What are your memories? The book is a very personal one. Right. Most of it is conversations with your father and his remembering, isn't it? Yeah. And what I found out by talking to a lot of friends of his and family members. It's really not a political book, in many ways. I think I wrote it because I thought, to me he's always been a person, not a figure in a case. And not either a Benedict Arnold or a martyr. Just a guy, and I thought if I could find out everything I could find out, and put that in a book, it would give people a chance maybe to make up their own minds. Knowing a person, they might be able to figure out this case. And how he became- perhaps we should, if you could very briefly and succinctly as you can, set the case up, because, your book reveals so much, to me, about the character of this man and how, to me, this guy was a natural- Oh. definitely. -as a patsy. Definitely. And suppose you set very quickly the case, the time, and then onto your book, and this particular man who was convicted of perjury. Well I found out, see, I think I got to know him a lot better writin' this book. And I found out that he was always being set up for things throughout his years in the New Deal service. He was in the government from 1933 to 1946, and whenever the shrewd guys, the ones on the make, the ones with a career to protect, didn't want to do something, they would let someone like Al, a good, decent, hardworking, blind fool do it. This came up time and time again. In your book there are so many instances of this. Yeah. We should point out that he came out of Harvard, or first this upper-class WASP family and there is a whole background history of the family and then- Very straight-laced. Straight-laced. And he was quite straight-laced indeed. Oh yeah, very tight tightly buttoned up I would say. A law clerk for Oliver Wendell Holmes and now the New Deal, something very exciting is happening in Washington. Roosevelt and immediately he's plunged right smack in the middle of things. Right. He's with the Triple A. The farm agency. That was paying money to the sharecroppers or to the big plantation owners not to plant cotton, and that was the first big squabble he got in the middle of. Should they play the pen- pay the plantation owners or pay the sharecroppers? And right there he makes enemies. That is- Always big shots because he- I described him in a [unintelligible] as a Candide. Yeah. Open [unintelligible] open. And he's, well sure. And so, here's a sequence, perhaps your comments. On page 79, "Young Alger Hiss working for the Triple A," and he's, the two of them, as an older guy, worked on some opinion together on page 79. Oh yeah that's [unintelligible] And Al deferentially handed over to his friend for a special signature, this guy's superior. "Uh-uh," said the guy. "You sign it. I got a kid in school, fifteen thousand dollar mortgage, and I've got to be here after you guys are gone. It's a very controversial matter there. It's not I don't believe in it, but I'd sign it if it was only to get it through. But under the circumstances, you sign it." Al signed happily. "We don't give a f-," as he says. Right. That's right. Well that's the way they felt. There was a political appointment in the office. Jimmy Burns, who later became a Supreme Court Justice and Secretary of State, got his sister on the payroll. And Al and some of the other young guys went around saying she wasn't doing any work. And so she started telling the FBI that they were commies. So as early as 1933 he was being denounced as a commie because he wasn't saying the right things. Then later on he worked for a Senate Committee investigating munitions. It was called the Nye committee. The Nye Committee. And he was the sort of Sam Dash of that committee, the counsel of the committee. And that's where he actually met Whittaker Chambers. I'll get into that in a minute, but one of the important witnesses was Bernard Baruch who was a big shot, a financier. The senators treated him very deferentially on the same time they had a lot of hot questions to ask him. They didn't ask him. They gave the questions to Al. Al asked him. Baruch was very affronted he was being treated like this, as soon as he got off the stand, he started going around Washington saying "That young man is a communist." We should point out that Bernard Baruch was a sacred name. He was the man sat on the bench, give adviser to presidents, and Alger Hiss, the young attorney for this committee investigating munitions during World War I, is in questioning this guy, givin' him a pretty rough grilling. No one does that. Right. You see this is this is the guy he's always putting his, where angels indeed- Fear to tread. fear to tread. He's just leaping in. That's right. But so he was accumulating enemies, but at the same time I think the lesson of the whole story is that eventually the shrewd who used people like this out shrewd themselves, because, that's why I call the book "Laughing Last." My dad's in good shape these days. He's running around giving college lectures, having a good time. And the man who climbed to fame over his falling body is sulking in San Clemente. And but- we'll ask you about Hiss today, and the question I've asked, so how was he able to maintain his sanity and his equanimity? But more of that- I suppose because he is this Candide figure. Well, also there is another side to it, which I go into in the book. I think he went to jail to get away from my mom, and it was the first time he'd gotten out of the house and he was the kind of guy who was very loyal. He married a rigid woman, like his mother. And he could never have brought himself to leave her unless federal marshals had dragged them outside the door, which is what happened. So, ironically, he went to jail, and he started loosening up, and getting happy, made friends with the Italian cons in there. They said, "Alger. What kind of name is that for a man? we'll call you Al. Alberto." And he found they were the only guys who were serving time and maintaining their own honor and dignity and humanity. By the way he spent 44 months in the federal penitentiary. And as he says, "44 months in the can is a good corrective to three years at Harvard." I'm thinking thogh- well, for those who may not know the case, I'm thinking about the younger people- Oh yeah. Let's set it up. You've heard. Let's set this up after we have this pause, this cliffhanger. After this message, we'll return to Tony Hiss, his book "Laughing Last", that says, to me, far, far more about a certain person and circumstance than any legal brief ever could, or any investigative, young college professor gathering details gets. We'll come to this in a moment, after this message. [pause in recording] So resuming the conversation with Tony Hiss on "Laughing Last." No- briefly. Well, I think if there's any lesson here politically it's that you've got to watch your step, and that, if you befriend a hippie, you lend him your typewriter, and later some scoundrel wants to run for office, you can get into trouble no matter what your politics are. What happened in Dad's case was, when he was counsel to the Senate committee we were talking about, a nondescript, down and out, fat journalist with bad teeth came up said he was- name was George Crosley. Said Al was doing wonderful work. And by the way his wife and kids needed a place to stay, and Al was a sucker for people like this, and started giving him handouts- You point out [by?] the parenthetically Al, Al just loves to visit people in the hospital. Oh, yes. Somehow there's a crazy, goofy streak in him. He feel's good- Oh, definitely. Makes him feel good, powerful to visit people in the hospital. And so if somebody's down and out- if ever there were a sucker, it's Alger Hiss. Oh, yeah. A natural. Yeah. And finally, says to this guy, get lost, cause the guy never pays back any money. Now this guy is- happens to be- his real name is Whittaker Chambers. He's got 30 different aliases. In 1939, he starts going around Washington trying to sell somebody the story. He says, "I'm an ex communist and I know communist in the government and I want to expose them." For years he tries to sell this story. Nobody's gonna to listen to him because the people he's attacking are too high up in the government. People like Dean Acheson, who later became Secretary of State. Another guy named Adolph Berle who was an Assistant Secretary of State, at the time. He never gets an audience until 1948, the summer of 1948, when he appears as a witness before a Congressional Committee, the House Committee on Unamerican Activities, which was just disbanded a couple of years ago. Now, the reason they listen to him was- this was in a presidential election year, 1948. Republicans got control of Congress in 1946 for the first time since Hoover. They thought they had a sure winner with Dewey. Truman looked very vulnerable. They were looking for a hot election issue, and they decided to go after Communists in government. This was a hot issue because after World War II, the only two people- only two powers left standing on their feet were Russia and the U.S. So, naturally, there was some rivalry building up there- If I could just- an addendum here briefly. The Cold War itself had begun- Definitely- and the Democratic Party was quite as amenable and open to the red issue as the Republicans were to. It- the climate was set. Well, yeah. Dean Acheson himself had said to Al, my dad that at one point, "we've got to use this communism issue, Al. That if we don't scare Congress, they'll go fishing." To which Al, in one of his brighter moments, had said, "yeah but Dean, if you do scare them, they'll go crazy." A lot of people went crazy. So this was the climate. Alright. So then we have the witness, Chambers, and you have the forum, the Committee. Chambers by now is not attacking people high up in the government, he's attacking sort of middle level people like Al. He names eight or nine people. Only one of them demands the opportunity to rush down and deny these charges under oath. That's Al. None of the others ever appear. Nothing ever happens to them. So the committee has a nibble on the line. Now there's a third character here, a maverick, a young congressman named Richard Nixon, who had just won an election to Congress for the first time by smearing an incumbent Democrat as a commie. So he's got a good angle workin' for him. Sees no reason to go- to give it up. Al comes down, he denies the charges. He challenges Chambers to repeat his charges outside a congressional forum because you can't be sued for anything you say to Congress. Chambers does this on Meet the Press. Dad sues him for libel. Chambers now has his back to the wall. Again, parenthetical comment. The advisors, your father's lawyers, all gave- and I'll come to Stryker in a moment, Lloyd Stryker, whom he fired because he was too rough on the opposition. Right. Coming back to your father's character again. Everybody advised him. Old friends, conservative friends, says ignore the- Don't go- These guys are discredited. Don't go near them. Ignore Chambers. Ignore HUAC. They're both disreputable phenomena. Right. But, no. Alger says, I mean by God I'm going to sue him. And this is, again, we come to this character. Right. He could not possibly believe, being the Candide that he is, that this is indeed the best of all possible worlds and the most open of all societies, that virtue wouldn't triumph. Right. And he found out. So that's another thing. If he follows friends' advice, this thing would've fallen under its own weight. Definitely. You know, he'd have been a corporation president today, or something. But fortunately, he isn't. Frankly. I think would have been a complete- So he sued- Anyway, he sued Chambers. Chambers suddenly changes his tune, now. He had sworn Alger had been a member of a communist study group but not a spy. Now he says, "I lied. He was a spy." And he produces these State Department- copies of State Department documents which he claimed had been typed on an old typewriter at home by my mother. And also some famous microfilms which he produced dramatically from a pumpkin, hollowed out pumpkin, on his farm in Maryland. The middle the night, Nixon rushed back from a vacation, held up the microfilms, and was photographed with the microfilms and a magnifying glass by all the cameramen. There were five rolls. Two of them were introduced in a trials. They were sort of innocuous State Department documents that really could have come from anyone. The other three we never saw until a couple of years ago when the government released them and, one was clouded, the other two were Navy Department press releases, things like what color should- So these were the top secret documents- Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Nixon held them up and said, "I hold in my hands proof of the most treasonable conspiracy against the Republicans history." By the way, you point out these very innocuous documents, Hiss- in your book you point out- you find out that they lay around there anyway. There was a casual atmosphere- Yeah. In the State Department at that time. Anybody could pick these things up. Anybody could have Because these weren't important to begin with. Right. It was only in the '60s, I talked to an old friend of dad's, who later became an ambassador in Africa, who said, "Oh sure. Everybody could have come in and when I-when they made me an ambassador, I couldn't understand how things had changed. I sent back a travelogue report to the State Department and my code man came in and said, 'Mr. Ambassador you didn't make that classified or restricted.' I said, well it's open information. He said, 'Everything we send out is restricted.'" Now the other key aspect of the case was the Woodstock typewriter. Yeah. Okay. Well again, just to finish the chronology, after this, Chambers's sensational charges, a grand jury was convened. Again, dad's advisers said, "you don't have to talk to this grand jury, and if you don't talk to them they can't indict you." Al said, "No, I must talk to them." Goes in and denies them, he's indicted on two charges of perjury. He goes to trial, federal trial, in New York. First trial ends in a hung jury- Oh, by this is Judge Kaufman- Judge I should point clear, not the Judge Kaufman of the Rosenberg case, but another Judge Kaufman- That's right. And he was replaced. Perhaps you could explain that a Yeah, Nixon- after the hung verdict, Nixon called for the impeachment of Kaufman saying he was a communist not to have gotten a guilty verdict. They did change judges and a very elderly judge who'd been appointed to the bench by Warren Harding took over. He- Judge Goddard. Judge Henry Goddard. He snoozed on the bench repeatedly during the trial. By this time the deck was stacked. They got a guilty verdict. The typewriter. Chambers charge was that Al had brought home documents to his Georgetown house in the middle of the night, mom would type 'em up, Chambers would come over, take 'em to Baltimore, get them photographed, bring them back. This these were charges that could have been pretty easily disproved if the trial had been in Washington because Georgetown was a very quiet, sleepy, little neighborhood. The houses they were living in at the time had paper thin walls. They'd been built as housing for nurses in the Civil War. So if a guy shouted and knocked, banged the doors, everybody would hear it Well if a guy was typing in the middle of the night, you'd hear it. Now we gotta come back to Alger Hiss again. Why- aside from Washington, you have a step-brother. Alger Hiss'- A Alge- Alger Hiss' stepson. Stepson, right. Phyllis, your mother's, first marriage- Priscilla. [unintelligible] Priscilla. Yeah. And so, Tim. And Tim, your half-brother, was saying, "had Alger called on me I would've destroyed this guy." Right, Tim was living I could describe the way these houses are built- And well he- Everybody would have comment and heard this noise. Not only that but Tim was living in the house at the time. He knew very well that this guy Now, why- see, to me I'm taken, of course, with your- with your portrait of Alger Hiss. Why didn't Hiss call on Tim? Well, Tim had been in the Navy in 1945, and had been thrown into the brig for a couple of days for a teenage gay episode. Al- it's alright to say this now, I think, because of Tim's come out in a book published last year. Al was sure that if he put Tim on the stand the FBI would bring this out, because the FBI let it be known that they were going around talking to all Tim's friends at the time of the trial. And Al, in order to protect his step- his stepson, refused to use the evidence that would have exonerated him. Now we come to the character- I'll return to the typewriter in a moment, and the two typewriter experts who built one like it. Alger Hiss, a friend of mine, an editor, distinguished American editors, would sooner go to the gallows and the electric chair than have a certain family scandal be revealed. And you point his sense of loyalty is such that, he indeed was an almost Victorian figure- Oh, yeah. A figure of another time. Well, it's ironic that he was charged with disloyalty to the government because loyalty was the key concept in his mind. Loyalty to his wife and his kids. The possibility, too, of something else he didn't want to come out about your mother long, long go. Yeah. Way back in 1929, before she married dad, had had an abortion. She was desperate not to have this come out so, again, that was another thing he- there was in fact a cover up going on, but it was a cover up just of family skeletons. But dad had been sitting on family skeletons for years. His dad had committed suicide when he was three. This was the way he was brought up by his mom. So this matter of family loyalty- Yeah. Even if he's going to be sent to the gallows. That's more important. So here we- so we come to the typewriter. That was the prosecutions- Right. Well, this is where they got him. Because this was an old typewriter that belonged to mom and her father before her and it had disa- they had given it away or something by the time these charges finally came up, because the charges were of course that he transmitted these documents in '38, and it's now '48. So Dad says, "if we can find the typewriter, we can prove that it wasn't a machine that typed these papers." So they go and they, after a long search, find what they think is the typewriter, they bring it into court. It's a defense exhibit. It blows up in their face because it proves to be the typewriter that did type these documents. They don't know what to do. It's only later they realize the possibility that this typewriter was a plant, a forged typewriter put there in order to hook 'em. And, well, now- now it's a lot more easy to figure this out. Not only has dad- does dad think he's found the guy who made this typewriter, but it's now known that the British Secret Service was using forged typewriters as early as 1941. They forged a typewriter, a letter from the Italians to the Brazilian government. Now this was in the earliest part of World War II, the Brazilians were leaning towards the Germans and the Italians, and this forged letter, forged typewritten letter, so embarrassed the Brazilian government that they had to back away from the Axis Powers. And the FBI knew about this kind of technology. And of course after Dad's trial, when they when he finally began to think straight again, he hired two typewriter experts- The Tytells. Pearl and Martin Tytell, who were able to build a typewriter, which the government pooh-poohed- By, this is one of most astonishing aspects in the case. They built a typewriter that was a replica- Oh. Exact of the one that convicted- A complete- Hiss, and one of the prosecutors said, "this is a fantastic job." Yeah. Off the record, he said this to the Tytells, he wouldn't say it in court. In court they pooh-poohed this whole possibility, but- and call it a Rube Goldberg. Subsequently, he ran into Pearl Tytell and said to her, "you people did a phenomenal job, a fantastic job." But Judge Goddard refused to allow an appeal on the basis of this new evidence. Oh yeah. He said they said it was immaterial. So dad went to jail. And he got out. And he's been doing all right. We got to continue more of this- OK. Because it's the character of Hiss, and quite frankly, I say, "this could have been me." If this is a guy, if- I see a certain innocent, he far more innocent than I am. He's so open, that he does certain things that a guy with a closed mind would never dream of doing. I'm thinking of Hiss and Nixon. Hiss gave this guy, Crosley, this nondescript guy, the car. [unintelligible]. He wouldn't give that guy the car unless he we- unless he were a, an intimate of his, and it was a car worth 25 bucks. Right. I had done that, I think I would have. I did similar things like that, I think. Others I know would have done that. Not worth a damn, this guy comes along with a sobs- Oh, sure. Now that's a study of two kinds of Americans, I think. One who's absolutely open and thus a sucker, and the others not gonna give a sucker an even break. Right. One is closed. So one would represent, to me, dream is an open society. The other would assume this is a closed society. And to me, this case is, aside from the tragedy to Alger Hiss. But he recoups very well indeed. It's a metaphor, indeed, for our society. Oh yeah. I think it's pretty clear. And I think it's a picture of the way government works. And it's- it's too bad that it works that way, but what are you gonna to do. We have to come to- that's what your father was saying, that there are guys who are- that, good guys, you know, get chopped down, do their work, but now and then the [unintelligible] is, they got it too. But I come to something- to certain circumstances. There were a cup- a number of witnesses for Hiss, and among them were two who were Supreme Court. One became later. Were Stanley Reed and Felix Frankfurter. Yeah they were both- And as a result of their being witnesses for Hiss, they could not- Right. Sit on the appeal, wasn't that it? Yup. That's right. 'Suppose you explain that? They were character witnesses in his trial, so they had to disqualify him- themselves when the case came for review before the Supreme Court. As a result of that, the court voted not to take the case. If they'd been on the bench they would have accepted the case. Justice Douglas has said in his book that he is sure the Supreme Court could not have sustained his convictions because, by the nature of the of the evidentiary procedures in a libel and of perjury case, you cannot get a conviction unless you have a reliable witness- two reliable witnesses or one reliable witness and overwhelming evidence. And, of course, Chambers was a self-confessed perjurer, and he was the witness. Why don't you read this is quote. This is William O. Douglas. His biography that came out- his autobiography came out a few years ago. "Go East Young Man." And perhaps this- this passage about his case. This is Justice Douglas talking. "Certain it is that the inference that Hiss was framed was strong. The case illustrates the wisdom of having two witnesses on a perjury charge, or if there is only one as in the Hiss case, that the court ride herd on the nature of the corroborative evidence to make certain that it has trustworthy character which will prevent one accused of perjury from being framed. In my view no court at any time could possibly have sustained the conviction." And then further he says and this this part of it, about the impact of the case itself. "The result of the Hiss case was to exalt the informer, who in Anglo-American history has had an odious history. Gave agencies of the federal government unparalleled power over the private lives of citizens. It initiated the regime of sheeplike conformity by intimidating the curiosity and idealism of our youth." Now another place in the book he says- because Douglas was the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission before he went on the bench, and he at one time offered Al a job, when Al was a young lawyer in the New Deal. And he says it would be interesting to speculate what might have happened to Hiss, if Hiss had come in with him and gotten interested in regulating big business instead of going into the State Department and worrying about foreign policy. And one- in one case the DuPonts. [Unintelligible] When he was attorney for the Nye committee. That's right. They offered him a job to get them off the hook. So that's right, he might have been a retired DuPont vice president today- [laughter] Living in Wilmington, Delaware. He wouldn't have been the Alger Hiss he is. St. George. There's a sequence here about- he's gonna follow- everyone says, forget the case. John W. Davis, by the way, very distinguished Wall Street lawyer, a very conservative, Democratic candidate for president in 1924, advised Alger Hiss, just forget it. It's kind of fun- But no by God he suddenly, he is St. George. Right. As again. Well also he thought, "I'm a lawyer, if we can get this into a court, we'll get it cleared up because-" So here- you now, after all these years, Tony Hiss and this portrait of your father. And you heard those young voices the beginning of this program. Your thoughts. Do you remember when you were a little kid? You were little and your father's name was in all the headlines, and this- and name became a pejorative word. Yeah sure. I didn't know what to think for a while. Didn't know, was I good? Was I bad? Was he good? Was he bad? I liked him. I wasn't sure whether he liked me 'cause he was as I say pretty tightly buttoned up in those days. Nothing ever bad really ever happened to me materially. I stayed in the school I was going to. Nobody beat me up in a schoolyard because I was a dirty commie. But it was pretty confusing there for a while. I'm thinking of those young voices we hear today. You know you know those- at the very beginning. The name a new meaning at all or else- Why should it have any meaning for them? I mean, it seems to me that, to me it's an interesting story. One, because it says something about what can happen to blind, good, working, decent, hardworking, good decent people in the government, getting used- Hardworking fools. Fools. Right. For another, because, a personal story- that here was a guy who was cooked by a scoundrel, but for him, it was an opportunity and not a catastrophe. His career was in ruins. He was going off to federal prison. But he's a much happier man as a result of it because it got him out of a very difficult marriage that he was caught in and strapped to by standards that he'd been brought up to believe in, and had to believe in at the expense of his own happiness. By the way he's been- he has- he was once disbarred, but he is now, I think the Massachusetts Bar Association? Yeah. Oh yes, he's really been vindicated. Vindicated. Yeah. He got The Massachusetts Bar association gave him back his license to practice- That's right. And that was the- but he's But he's been selling- for a long time he was selling stationery. He still stellson- sells some stationery in New York. He was- he was the first disbarred lawyer ever to be readmitted to the Bar in Massachusetts in 200 years. He does some college lecturing. He still sells some stationery, he says- he's been a pretty good salesman because he would call people up and say, "I'd like to sell you some stationery, my name is Alger Hiss." And he said they always see him when he said that. They wouldn't always buy, but they always give him I must tell a story. Alger Hiss the celebrity- that is, celebrity not to the young, who don't know him, but celebrity to those who are his contemporaries or mine. For better or for worse, a celebrity. "Alger Hiss that dirty so-and-so traitor." "Oh that guy Hiss." But, known. So when he was here several years ago, we went to the Palmer House, and he wanted to stay at the Palmer House, and he wanted to go see a symphony that night 'cause he- Of course. and- and- Go to the art museum. And the art museum. But, he had to see the credit manager who is- so the credit manager, who is a contemporary, looks up, says, "Alger Hiss." And so I say, "does that name ring a bell?" "Indeed it does. You know we had it last week, Shep Fields and Rippling Rhythm." [Laughter] Right, well- So, it doesn't ma- [laughter]. He's a celebrity. It's mythology, right? Well I gotta to come to one other question, and it's one that always [confused me?]. There are intellectuals, liberals intellectuals, who absolutely convinced of Hiss' guilt. In fact their lives are dependent on him. Thinking of Do- the late Lionel Trilling and his wife Diana Trilling- Mmm-hmm and Dwight MacDonald, whom I respect, and you had Gore Vidal some time because, "oh yeah, he's guilty." I said, "how do you know?" "Oh, he is." Murray Kempton, who I admire very much indeed. Now, how would you explain that? I don't know, Studs. Most of them, or a lot of them are eff- ex-left wingers who are- have been running scared since the late '40s. You know- Those Like- [unintelligible]

Tony Hiss Converts to Catholicism.

Studs Terkel Yeah, but those I've mentioned or not, I think there's something else involved here. No these people I've mentioned whom I respect

Tony Hiss very Well the Trilling's certainly were-

Studs Terkel The Trillings, they're special, yeah? Highly literate. [Mandarin?] of literature in America.

Tony Hiss I think-

Studs Terkel Why do you

Tony Hiss They tend to be rather bitter, suspicious people.

Studs Terkel I think it has somethin' to do with something

Tony Hiss and something they're sitting on in themselves.

Studs Terkel I think there's a strange aspect here, I wish I could put the finger on it. 'Cause I- I wonder if they've read all the evidence, but mostly whether they've read your book. See, to me, your book tells me more than- your book tells me more than a tome on the subject of all the details. [So he?]- cause the- about this kind of guy who, had to be a set-up.

Tony Hiss Well, I think they're being unkind to the little children in themselves, who never got treated right when they were growing up. And rather than be nice to themselves, they are mean to other people.

Studs Terkel Al's here's a guy who stepped in- who stepped into all sorts of hot spots. Yalta, too. By the way his name was very, very often associated with Yalta.

Tony Hiss That's right he was at the Yalta

Studs Terkel And at [the trial?] of Eastern Europe. This comes in often-

Tony Hiss And he was Secretary General of the organizing conference of the United Nations in San Francisco, in 1945. Which is also seen by a lot of people as a sellout of American interest.

Studs Terkel But he was always in the middle of things-

Tony Hiss Always.

Studs Terkel Instead of being- instead of being careful and keeping his nose clean. It's precisely the opposite. I never had a dull assignment. [laughter] His points of action. "After I went down to Washington ought to be useful," quoting your father here.

Tony Hiss Yeah.

Studs Terkel And you say, sees it a matter of course. This is logical that young people be- do this work, you know. He said, "I was pleased." And he has a new hot spot. And then, every time he's a new hotspot.

Tony Hiss Always in the hotspots. Right. And always getting- making enemies.

Studs Terkel Oh, by the way, that's another thing. Well that make- because he is, it seems to me, so rigidly honest, whether- whether he's questioning the very powerful Bernard Baruch, or-

Tony Hiss DuPonts.

Studs Terkel Or the Duponts, or- there's a reporter, Bert Andrews, who admired him very much, but he balled him out for something instead of being nice to the Syndicate of Journalists, and Andrews later on became a strong ally of Nixon on Hiss case.

Tony Hiss Right. Exactly.

Studs Terkel He doesn't know enough to get it- to- to get out- in out of the rain.

Tony Hiss Well, but he knew enough to go to jail and get away from mom, so-

Studs Terkel [Lughter] He-

Tony Hiss So he's not stupid, after all.

Studs Terkel [Laughter]. Only 44 months in jail.

Tony Hiss Yeah, well, in his case it was probably very useful

Studs Terkel I must ask you a question, Tony. You're a New Yorker, right. There's this dry humor to this book. It's a very irreverent book, at the same time it's a loving book of someone who thinks of his father, as this guy who was always put his foot into it. But an admirable sort of guy because of a certain kind of-

Tony Hiss Yeah, he's a nice guy. He's goofy, but he's nice.

Studs Terkel Yeah. How would you explain his ability to maintain through this- quite an ordeal indeed- maintain his equanimity?

Tony Hiss Well I think it's because he always was a nice guy, and, because somewhere in him he knows that the- a good life is the best revenge. He's still alive, isn't he? He should kill himself because he had to go to jail?

Studs Terkel You know, there's a- some comments made about him as an ice cold guy, though because he spoke of in the court- he wrote "In The Court of Public Opinion" as a brief. And they compared- this is someone who did a negative review of your book- compared the passion of Whittaker Chambers in his book, which I thought was interesting, but this reviewer, who really tipped his mitt in rapping your book. Right then and there he tipped his mitt. His mind was made up before he read your book. But he spoke with a passion of one. Was your father indeed as far from an ice cold man?

Tony Hiss Oh yeah. And I think it's, you know, now that he's a sort of semi-retired, disgraced, old, ex-civil servant, he's beginning to relax. He doesn't- he realizes he doesn't know how much time he's got left to him. He's 72. He realizes there's no reason to be perfect in everything, as an ex-con. And he's got a new girlfriend. He's running around, havin' a good time.

Studs Terkel How old is he?

Tony Hiss 72. He likes to drink wine and collects the labels and the wine he's drunk. He's enjoying himself. He's a human being.

Studs Terkel "Laughing Last" is the book by Tony Hiss of his father, Alger Hiss. And Houghton Mifflin, the publisher's, and the suggestion is a reading of this would give you a think a remarkably good picture, not simply of a certain kind of Candide figure, which indeed he is, I think. But, it's an endearing story of a son's portrait of a father. A blind, hard working fool who is open, and that might tell you awful lot about the case of Alger Hiss. And about Richard Nixon, too, tangentially and tragically. So Tony, thank you. Any- any postscript?

Tony Hiss Well, I think it's helped me a lot, too, the way it worked out. I think if he'd gone on to be Secretary of State, I would have been just

Studs Terkel Which he might have been, by the way.

Tony Hiss People said he would have been. I would have been just a snotty Harvard kid. Didn't know anything. And the fact that dad basically loves life, I think got through to me after a while. So I'm happy to be his son, and he's having a nice life, and I'm having a nice life.

Studs Terkel Thank you very much. "Laughing Last: Alger Hiss" by Tony Hiss. Houghton Mifflin and available.